Has 'Commercial' Focus Harmed The Community?

[bigsmiles]

(Clickbait title ;P)
Now I am sure there are many, many areas of this which I do not understand and am not aware of.
And I am not trying to cause a problem or offend anyone. I am more just expressing a thought.

But one thing which has been odd to me (as someone coming from older versions, after many years) has been the apparently very strong focus on producing commercially successful games.

For me, I always loved seeing such silly fan games, random experiments, artistic expressions etc people would make. And some were just a quick laugh, but some were hard work and very nice, and still free.
It can feel a bit now as though the general community is focused strongly on making games for sale. And then it can seem (again, I am outsider, not informed) that this has had a knock-on effect, where new devs will now be redirected to focus on the same design philosophy, rather than just being encouraged making whatever mad nonsense they had in their brain.

It could also be that I was just not aware that this was always the case.
But anyway. It feels a bit as though things can get a bit apprehensive and restrained, because they are not "on par" with the trends or standards of "commercial" projects.

It is just something I was wondering, if anyone had opinions.

 

[ATT_Turan]

But one thing which has been odd to me (as someone coming from older versions, after many years) has been the apparently very strong focus on producing commercially successful games.

Well, it's easier to do now. You go back in the day and how would you sell your games? You set up your own Web site, paying for hosting, print CDs, mail them to people?

With Steam being readily available, people who might have been deterred in the past are actually able to sell their games.

some were hard work and very nice, and still free.

Some still are. I think from reading your post that you might underestimate how many people are here making games for fun and free. Have you looked at how many games you can stream on itch?

And then it can seem...that this has had a knock-on effect, where new devs will now be redirected to focus on the same design philosophy, rather than just being encouraged making whatever mad nonsense they had in their brain.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you think that people are showing up to these forums intending to make a free game and people here tell them to sell it instead? I have seen zero posts that I could interpret that way...can you give some examples?

The only thing I can think of that is the slightest nudge in this direction is that people are told when the content they want to put into a fangame is illegal copyright infringement. And that is never said with the addendum "You should charge for your game instead," but it's something that should be common knowledge everywhere.

 

[AquaEcho]

The romhack scene is full of free passion project fangames because they legally can't sell their games. I don't blame people here creating new IPs wanting commercial success, even if they just want a few hundred to recoup their costs when I see how much they spend on plugins, commissioned art or code, etc.

 

[TeiRaven]

Well, it's easier to do now. You go back in the day and how would you sell your games? You set up your own Web site, paying for hosting, print CDs, mail them to people?

I mostly remember the days of portals, prior to Steam. Yahoo Games, WildTangent, Big Fish, and the like. There were also services (the one that comes to my mind is BMT Micro) that would take care of the processing of sales and distribution of keys (and the shipping of CDs, upon request) for you. I honestly miss those days--the extra step of quality control, and the one-hour free trials so you could know if you actually enjoyed the game before you paid. Steam reminds me of the fabric store I used to work for, but that's a soapbox for another time XD But I do agree that it was more work to get a game published!

I think what OP meant by "new devs will now be redirected to focus on the same design philosophy, rather than just being encouraged making whatever mad nonsense they had in their brain" is that there's a certain tendency to, when a question is asked or an idea is pitched, examine it from a "would this be a commercial success" standpoint rather than "well that's an interesting experiment" standpoint. And no, I can't provide a specific example of this happening--I don't think it's necessarily intentional. But I definitely have gotten the same vibe before, and that's usually when I close the forum and get back to work. Not that people who would have been making free games are being encouraged to go commercial, but there's a certain feeling of "this is the Right Way," as if there's only one.

Now, in fairness, when I first started with RMXP I was not on an "official" forum of any kind--I was on a community forum for a specific game, which happened to have a section for games that people were making. It was all hobbyists who were learning, no one was seriously aiming to go commercial. It was a very kind, supportive space to learn in--perhaps unusually so. It wasn't until I started poking my head into bigger, more "professional" forums that I started to see people arguing about design decisions and telling others how they "should" do things, or what the "right" way to make a game was. So depending on where you've come from, your impression of the attitudes on this forum in particular may vary. It may be a harsher place than you've come from, or it may be wildly more polite and reasonable XD

To bring it back to the "clickbait" title...I don't know that it's "harmed" anything, but it does feel a little different than it Used To Be (tm). But then, I don't think anything stays quite the same after ten, fifteen years. Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine!

 

[ATT_Turan]

I honestly miss...the one-hour free trials so you could know if you actually enjoyed the game before you paid.

Well, to be fair, Steam has a two-hour refund policy, so it's actually twice as good. The only difference is you have to pay first and you can get a refund, which I don't think is a practical difference unless you have some kind of weird issues with your credit card.

 

[Indinera]

Well, to be fair, Steam has a two-hour refund policy, so it's actually twice as good. The only difference is you have to pay first and you can get a refund, which I don't think is a practical difference unless you have some kind of weird issues with your credit card.

I suppose steam won't be happy if you refund 50 games in a row whereas you can try freely (no pun intended) 50 demos in a row.

As for the question, personally I'd say the opposite, it made the community better, more focused, more respectful and in a way, more professional.

@TeiRaven as someone who had my own website from 2008 on, first with Plimus then BMT, I definitely have fond memories of those days.

 

[AquaEcho]

It wasn't until I started poking my head into bigger, more "professional" forums that I started to see people arguing about design decisions and telling others how they "should" do things, or what the "right" way to make a game was. So depending on where you've come from, your impression of the attitudes on this forum in particular may vary. It may be a harsher place than you've come from, or it may be wildly more polite and reasonable XD

It has nothing to do with a game being commercial. I've seen communities criticize and dump romhacks because it doesn't have features other romhacks have, i.e. "Your Pokemon romhack doesn't have the complete dex/fairy types/megas/nuzlocke!? Trash, uninstalled."

 

[Bex]

It helped the Community to grow.

People were sceptical about to which extremes comercialisation would be pushed and forced.
And the fear to loose creative freedom, greedy paywall for everything while eradicating the
"sharing spirit" of the Community, were real worrys, but they did not come true.
All those exaggerated stuff did not happen. It was a fair transition for everyone in my opinion.
Had to overthink my own set of facts in my head + entitlement and learned much in the process.

We got many positive things, bigger and growing Community + Users in General.
DLC, Scripts/Plugins, A market Place. And RPG Maker on STEAM !!! Artist Protection...
And the first thing we got, people who made some example Games and marketed them on Steam
to Cash in Money with lacking Games. But they were the first and they often succeeded like flappy bird XD. Than RPG Maker Games got a "Stigma" you surely remember... XD.
A few cool Games later... we arive in the present Day.

Iam excited where the journey continues to go, and i hope Degica Continues to handle things well, like
they did in the past. So Commercialisation was a success, but the worry about a possible Negative Comnercialisation still exists and i hope they will not do such things.

Edit:
So for me at the moment it comes down to
Good vs Bad Commercialisation
and not to Commercialisation Yes or No

 

[ATT_Turan]

I suppose steam won't be happy if you refund 50 games in a row whereas you can try freely (no pun intended) 50 demos in a row.

There's no such thing as Steam "not being happy" - it's their policy. I definitely refund more games than I keep. I can't speak to specifically 50 in a row, but unless you go past the policy limits of two played hours or 14 owned days, your refund request is automatically processed.

Heck, I have accidentally purchased and refunded the same game more than once.

 

[Poryg]

I don't think it has harmed the community. The community has simply evolved and now we have a different generation of game makers.

In my times in 2009, the Czech indie making scene was full of hobbyists. We made games for our markets and for fun. However, it's also important to note we couldn't really monetize the games anyway. Back in my day, if you wanted to make a good looking game, unless you had the artistic skill, you generally relied on rips.

As time has passed, the large companies have cracked down on asset ripping communities. We no longer have Don Miguel's version of RPG maker, nor we have good ways of obtaining a large quantity of AAA quality resources. If you want a good looking game, you have to invest time & potentially even money. It makes sense to want to recoup the lost funds.
Even our Czech indie scene has moved abroad for wider audience... and due to the fact that nothing really incentivizes to make games for fun anymore.

 

[Bex]

There was no alternative for Children back in the Day.
It worked without knowing how to write Scriptlanguage.
And it was for Free. And like minded Creators shared alot.
Some special Games, inspired mostly everyone.
Than you suddenly could buy RPG Maker and it was still around illegal.

But without transition and the release on Steam, there would have been no RPG Maker MZ maybe not even MV.

 

[HOLYMOTHER]

A commercial element exists in almost all artistic movements, whether as something to be rejected or embraced or so forth, and while there must a correlation between commercialism and the evolution of RM games, I'm not sure it's causal or even necessarily that strong.

I'm not an RPGMaker historian or anything, but I do know that the halcyon days of weird, artistic RM games existed in a time before the ubiquity of social media, even before the advent of the smartphone, when it was expected of everyone to maintain total anonymity online and the average person still wasn't all that familiar with computers anyway.

Everything on the internet was weirder back then, not just RM games. It can't be considered local to only the RM community.

(It's also a lot easier to get C&D'd by corporate lawyers now.)

 

[coyotecraft]

It depends on the scope and use of the word "community". If you're conflating it with a particular site or set of values like teamwork. And hurting how? Like some assessment of ability or a means of production?

There are people with superiority complexes, or come from cultures that are intensely competitive and critical about productivity. Nobody likes soulless bureaucrats and their "legal" definitions. A farm that isn't selling anything isn't "legally" a farm. There's people that would advocate to gun down horses by helicopter because they are in a grey area that aren't classified as wildlife or livestock - and (the horses) they're in the way of money.

It's like what went down between cyanyurikago and [redacted]

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

Interesting topic. I just hope it doesn't devolve.

My own uninformed opinion, based on very little data, is that comparing the number of members here on this forum and the number of apparent units sold of RPG Makers with the number of commercial game publishers, I would guess that the commercialization by Devs is actually pretty low.

Which is different from the business of commercializing the engine and assets. The engines are marketed as anyone can make a game. And I think some people read into that the underlying message that you can be a successful game dev and make money if you just buy our product.

As with many areas, I also think some RM users have unrealistic expectations of what they will be able to do and their potential success. Like how many aspiring writers, musicians, sports people, etc. believe that they will be wildly successful, or at least be able to make a living off their dreams. When the reality is that only a small portion will ever find significant success or make a stable income from their efforts.

I think maybe those wildly enthusiastic folks might skew the impression of over commercialization. But again, based on the number of members here compared to the number of regular participants, those would be incredibly small numbers.

However, I will also readily acknowledge that I have also gotten the vibe from various responses to posts that categorically state opinion as if it were fact. And there have been many instances where threads have devolved into arguments about what "players" want or how certain things make other things suck. And it is presented as if those are undisputed facts. As if the poster can speak authoritatively on behalf of a nebulous enigma that is the gaming consumer.

I think that is also where you could get the impression that there is a "push" to focus on what will make a game successful rather than just fun to make and play.

On the flip side, I would guess that the majority of the posts here are not written in a way that you can readily tell if the OP is a hobbiest, someone who wants to make popular games for free, or someone who wants to make a living off selling RM games.

I do think some folks seem to default to one perspective or the other when they answer posts. While others will sometimes make the distinction in their responses as to what the OP wants or intends will influence their answer.

But these are must my impressions and perhaps they are completely incorrect.

Anyway, I am a hobbiest who loves RMMZ and everything that is available today. And the community here that is so helpful and generous in sharing. If that is what commercialization has brought, then I think it is a good thing.

 

[123edc]

personally, i don't think, that there are less "just for fun" project nowadays ...
but rather, that the "for sale" ones are easier/faster put into the spotlight of certain sites

but one point, that actually does real harm are these fast built - low effort cashgrab's out there ... but, well, that's a story for itself ...

 

[bigsmiles]

I didn't expect such varied idea and interesting reply. It will take me time to think about it.
I hope it will not be a problem or causing any argument though.
To be clear: I find the content on this community very helpful and exciting.

I think actually

---

Has explained a big part of my idea better than I did.

I guess another part I am saying, is perhaps the focus on commercial games can be alienating some valuable people. It seemed like there were way more free resources before, more excitement with silly games which were not a brand or something, and I am not saying rips from SNES and NES game, just random nonsense. But it also can be true that I don't know anything about where I am looking around. I maybe need some suggestions for places to find fun games.
For example, I know people irl, or from long time online who love to play with RPGMaker (only making silly games like mazes or stuff). But they don't even know about all the cool scripts and developments which have happened now with current or past versions. But they don't like to get involved in it, because they say like "My kind of things don't fit with that scene". Even trying to convince them just "You don't need to buy stuff after the engine, the RTP already is sick, you can just edit a bit" is hard because they see a lot now everything needs to be 100% top tier graphic.
Like I only have been on here a few weeks, and now I am learning JavaScript and fully excited as heck about it. I watched a stream a member did, and it was playing a game another member made, and it was seriously cool to see it, and then I want to see more of it again. So I am someone who is like "this is badass, I can learn all kinds of stuff from these people, stuff is way crazy now compared to before, you can do anything in the maker".
But for then some people, I think they are worried "only if I am making a commercial game, will any of the community these days care to see it". Or "They will hate my idea, because 10,000 people won't buy it." It is just something like that from when I was thinking and talking to people.

It can also be that I am not understanding the change of the times. Most people with any hobby now, it seems like the idea is to make money with it too.

I hope it is not sounding like I am saying something bad about people. I think it also could be that I think weird.

 

[Bex]

My fears of Negative Commercialisation were:
To pay extra to release Games for Sale (I did not intended to make one but that Point should be Free, not like in Construct or Game Maker in the past)
To get no or only smal RTP. But we got Balance between DLC and free RTP, we actualy have a very big Free RTP, but since MV we are not allowed to share Edits of it on the Forums anymore. But Free Resources in RTP Style and Paid DLC got both created, so i guess we can life with that in the end.

 

[Kes]

@bigsmiles If you are looking for a site with a much more overtly "(almost) everything is free", then you could try rpgmaker.net. It is a fan run site, as distinct from this site which is an official one, so it can be a lot more relaxed about some things.

EDIT
@Bex

but since MV we are not allowed to share Edits of it on the Forums anymore.

I'm not sure where you got this from. I look at the Resources section for MV and I see a great many threads with RTP edits.

 

[bigsmiles]

My fears of Negative Commercialisation were:
To pay extra to release Games for Sale (I did not intended to make one but that Point should be Free, not like in Construct or Game Maker in the past)
To get no or only smal RTP. But we got Balance between DLC and free RTP, but since MV we are not allowed to share Edits of it on the Forums anymore. But Free Resources in RTP Style and Paid DLC got both created, so i guess we can life with that in the end. I wonder what Artists think?

I thought new RTP was awesome. For months I only was using it as placeholders, didn't need any more graphic. Now more recent months slowly adding some 'DLC' ones, and some free ones, but also think just editing the RTP is fine or making new ones.
One thing I would like is more of people posting free edits of RTP. It will sound very rude, but I have seen commercial tilesets which to me seem just as RTP edits or tracing. But anyway, RTP edits readily available in my opinion is great way to get many lower skill developers making games.

 

[Bex]

Yes i agree, but like i stated, that is not allowed anymore for MV and MZ, as far as i know.
There is also no seperate MV/MZ RTP Download for users, like XP/VX-Ace offered.
I believe it is to protect the Resources for legal reasons, but iam not sure about it.
Till now i did not even think about it XD.
I believe some of the Artists here started out with sharing edits and recolours of RTP Resources.
Sorry this goes off Topic.