Has 'Commercial' Focus Harmed The Community?

[bigsmiles]

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lol oh geez, now I will have to take even more hours reading all the things they have too
are there more good community website also? I would like to learn a lot about scripting and see as many projects as possible

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They said to me RTP edit is fine, as long as you state which version it is from, so people know the legal restriction if they have paid for that version. so for me I am getting distracted lol trying to make a bunch of RTP edit
But see this can be an example, it could be just an idea or assumption where it is not okay, because of the commercial focus? I do not know.
I also was assuming it was not okay, because of seeing 'DLC' which was what I would consider edits. Again I am sorry if that is insulting anyone, I am not trying to, it only is example.

 

[Bex]

yes xp and vx ace are fine, thought mv and mz were different, than that changed, good to hear.
Than we should maybe spread the Word XD.

 

[bigsmiles]

yes xp and vx ace are fine, thought mv and mz were different, than that changed, good to hear.
Than we should maybe spread the Word XD.

Really cool would be a challenge saying "Everyone make the coolest RTP edits". I think personally the RTP is very underrated. The whole style of it is extremely charming and cool to me.
It could also be because for me it is new, so maybe now other people are bored with it.

 

[lianderson]

People can just make a commercial game without trying to be commercially successful. That's what I did.

 

[123edc]

There is also no seperate MV/MZ RTP Download for users, like XP/VX-Ace offered.
I believe it is to protect the Resources for legal reasons, but iam not sure about it.

i'm afraid, i can't quite follow, what you're saying,

the mz's eula states:

(2) Company Assets may be modified (colors or size changed, inverted, trimmed, etc.) only for purposes of use in User Games produced with This Software.

(3) Company Assets or those modified pursuant to the previous item may undergo Distribution, etc. with User Games produced with This Software. Furthermore, the User may not perform Distribution, etc. of individual Company Assets or those modified, or Distribution, etc. in combination with programs, etc. other than User Games. However, the User may duplicate, transfer, publicly transmit, or enable transmission of personally-modified Company Assets to other Authorized Users free of charge.

essentially, as i understand it,
as long as the receiver owns a legit version of the respective maker ...
it still is allowed, right?

also, the "rtp's" initial idea was, to seperate the custom made game files from the standard files ... in short: to lessen the download volume of each individual game [since the shared / standard files where in the rtp]

take into consideration, that these came from a time ... where our internet connection was ... well ... data limited and not realy fast ... a time, where these type of games came as a bonus on CD with the computer magazines

so there simply is no real need for that anymore ...

 

[Iron_Brew]

Personally, I find RM a much more inviting and inclusive place now that the focus is on creating new, original works rather than infringing other peoples' IPs! It's much more exciting seeing actual creativity rather than a billion FF knockoffs where the driving force of every cutscene is the word "..."

 

[RCXGaming]

Personally, I find RM a much more inviting and inclusive place now that the focus is on creating new, original works rather than infringing other peoples' IPs! It's much more exciting seeing actual creativity rather than a billion FF knockoffs where the driving force of every cutscene is the word "..."

You act like the ellipses bandit stole your wallet

Anyhow, this topic is weird. There's always a place for wacky fangames and free projects that have no greater ambition than to just amuse friends/random strangers on the internet.

But if you're someone with a vision/drive to create something and you want to make money off of your efforts, why not take up the engine to create commercial products? I know every time I think about it, I'm always much prouder that I have an original IP that I can market over a fangame I can't sell.

 

[coyotecraft]

But if you're someone with a vision/drive to create something and you want to make money off of your efforts, why not take up the engine to create commercial products? I know every time I think about it, I'm always much prouder that I have an original IP that I can market over a fangame I can't sell.

Self care is nice and all. But are you making time for other people? You know, the community?
What happens when everyone is concentrated on personal endeavors? When everyone wants to talk but nobody wants to listen?

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

@Iron_Brew Especially for those of us heathens who never played a FF game. Oh, dear. I can feel the judgmental eyes of condemnation upon my unclean soul!

And I would like to clarify my previous response with the fact that I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying to make commercially successful games with RPG Maker. In fact, if that is what they want to do, I would cheer them on.

I think it is awesome that RMMZ is so accessible. If it wasn't for MZ, I would probably never have dipped my toes into game making. But here I am and having a blast.

So I applaud the decisions that have gotten us to where we are.

And communities are made up of all sorts of people. This one has tons of lurkers. Which isn't a bad thing.

Everyone contributes to the level that they feel comfortable with or that is within their capabilities.

Power to the community!

 

[coyotecraft]

And communities are made up of all sorts of people. This one has tons of lurkers.

See this is where I ask you to define "community". Because that's not what I'd call a connection.
But if that's how you want to call it. Then apply that to OP's question. How are commercial endeavors hurting lurkers?

Edit: I mean it's fair to think of a community as a generalized location. Like a neighborhood or apartment complex. But I think the question implies something more cohesive.
I mean, 2 kids can build their own sand castles on the same beach. Are they sharing anything other than sand? Are they minding each other?
That's a hypothetical situation. How you choose to answer is the difference between company and coincidence.

 

[Willibab]

Personally, I find RM a much more inviting and inclusive place now that the focus is on creating new, original works rather than infringing other peoples' IPs! It's much more exciting seeing actual creativity rather than a billion FF knockoffs where the driving force of every cutscene is the word "..."

You wound me sir! They also say ''Whatever'' once in awhile!

 

[Iron_Brew]

Self care is nice and all. But are you making time for other people? You know, the community?
What happens when everyone is concentrated on personal endeavors? When everyone wants to talk but nobody wants to listen?

The same people making games are not (in the vast majority of cases) the same people playing them. This is advice I keep giving the rm devs I speak to over and over and over again. The fact that other devs like your project doesn't really make that much difference if you're trying to make people happy/the world a better place with your game/art/whatever.

 

[TheAM-Dol]

Haven't caught up with all the posts in the thread yet, but so far I have noticed it being more broadly speaking on the community part. I wanted to take a moment to explain why I personally focus my game as a commercial product (and I do often encourage most - most being the operative word here - to try to focus on that.)

It really just comes down to: holding myself to a higher degree of quality (when customers are holding you accountable for a quality product, it's difficult to cut corners), (hopefully) getting a return on the money I have invested into my project, and increasing the perceived value of my product.

(long soap box incoming)

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I'm no longer at a point in my life where my hours spent on a product can just be released for free. I neither have the time nor the money to justify that. I also believe that people who do release a high quality product for free are doing themselves and the entire community a disservice, despite it being a generous gesture as a whole to players, it inherently devalues games. Here's my hot-take:
customers already feel entitled with many other media: music is just a few bucks a month for every song ever making music virtually worthless.
Movies & TV, once again, just a few bucks a month for every movie and TV show ever.
So many social media platforms allow you to access more hours of watchable content than the lifetime of the universe all for the low cost of a few ads (unless you have adblocker than the cost is literally nothing).
While things like Game Pass are starting to become more prevalent, games still sort of hold a bastion of value in media we consume, and whenever a high quality game gets put out for free (no strings attached, I should clarify - so f2p gacha filth not withstanding - sort of, discussion for another time), consumer's perception slowly whittles away of what a game's value should be. There's a more nuanced discussion here about what pricing is appropriate, and I feel that without that discussion included my hot-take will also be misunderstood or picked apart but, let's face it, this post is already long and I have more points to make, so I'll just leave it at that.

This brings me to perceived quality. Here's an anecdote for you:
When I was in my teens I worked an estate sale. There were all sorts of neat antiques getting sold off but we had a handful of gaudy paintings no one was interested in. On the last day of the estate sale, the manager walked over to the paintings, removed the current price stickers, and placed new prices that were either double or even triple the original price. But why?
Because we often equate price with quality. High price = high quality, low price = low quality. A fallacy, for sure, but it's the same tactic you see used by high-end fashion where prices for a plain white t-shirt with nothing but a tiny little logo in the corner somewhere will sell out day one. They also rarely put their clothes on sale because discounts on their clothes hurt the perception people have on the quality of the brand.
Apples to oranges, but the psychology, I believe can be similar with games.

Which brings me to the final point: whenever I talk about how I am considering pricing my game to folks, other RM devs say, "You're insane. $15?"
We'll see if that decision comes back to bite me in the [pg-13] butt once it's actually released, but I feel very confident that $15 is a fair price for customers to pay while not inherently devaluing the quality of my game (not to mention, when it does go on sale, a 33% discount is going to look like people are getting a much better deal on a game that is selling for $15 then if a game selling for $3 has a 50% discount. People like to snipe good deals. I can't tell you the number of times I have seen cheap RM DLC go on sale and realize "I'm only saving $1...I can just buy it whenever because I'm not really saving that much money while it's on sale...")

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So that's a long, long tangent basically to say: I think it's good that folks are focusing more on commercializing their game if it means higher quality games.

 

[Iron_Brew]

Which brings me to the final point: whenever I talk about how I am considering pricing my game to folks, other RM devs say, "You're insane. $15?"
We'll see if that decision comes back to bite me in the [pg-13] butt once it's actually released, but I feel very confident that $15 is a fair price for customers to pay while not inherently devaluing the quality of my game (not to mention, when it does go on sale, a 33% discount is going to look like people are getting a much better deal on a game that is selling for $15 then if a game selling for $3 has a 50% discount. People like to snipe good deals. I can't tell you the number of times I have seen cheap RM DLC go on sale and realize "I'm only saving $1...I can just buy it whenever because I'm not really saving that much money while it's on sale...")

This always irks me. Why are people so intent on devaluing their own labour? And in - effectively - implying that they don't value other devs' work simply because it's in an engine they are familiar with?

You don't see it anywhere else. I'll never understand it.

 

[Sword_of_Dusk]

This always irks me. Why are people so intent on devaluing their own labour? And in - effectively - implying that they don't value other devs' work simply because it's in an engine they are familiar with?

You don't see it anywhere else. I'll never understand it.

I don't like this thought process at all. Not that I don't see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's particularly cool to see a guy put out a great game they made for free and moan about them devaluing their labor. Some people have a lot of free time and a lot of goodwill towards others, so they give out a project for free.

I also highly doubt they intend to devalue anyone else's work as well. They're likely not even judging anyone else for selling their work.

 

[ATT_Turan]

I guess another part I am saying, is perhaps the focus on commercial games can be alienating some valuable people. It seemed like there were way more free resources before, more excitement with silly games which were not a brand or something

I dunno what to say about that. I obviously don't have access to your memories that you're using for comparison, but this site has entire forums full of valuable people providing free resources and excited people putting silly games on their feed and the project forums.

since MV we are not allowed to share Edits of it on the Forums anymore.

that is not allowed anymore for MV and MZ, as far as i know

thought mv and mz were different, than that changed, good to hear. Than we should maybe spread the Word XD.

It's...not a change. Do you have the Resource forum on ignore or something? People have been posting threads full of RTP edits since MV came out in October of 2015 (Avery has threads that started that very month). There are RTP edits posted literally daily (on average).

This always irks me. Why are people so intent on devaluing their own labour? And in - effectively - implying that they don't value other devs' work simply because it's in an engine they are familiar with?

I've seen you make similar comments before and I don't think it's a fair/nice thing to say. The price that someone decides to charge does not imply anything about how they value other people's work. It explicitly states what they think their work is worth (or what they want other people to have to afford in order to enjoy it).

I think it's passive-aggressive (with less "passive" every time you say it explicitly) to tell people that what they decide to do with their projects is some expression of what they think about other people.

Frankly, that could contribute to what the OP is saying - that you seem to be saying to others "If you release a game for free, that means you think other makers here are worthless."

I understand the essence of what you're saying, that it's important to understand the value of your work and to charge what it's worth not what you think people will toss you scraps for. But it's a more appropriate thing to say to a musician who agrees to take a gig that's paying less than normal, or an artist who accepts a commission forum post for $5 for a tileset; not to say to people who are choosing to place any given price point on their work.

 

[SGHarlekin]

Hmm.. I kinda want to throw my 2 cents in here, but I feel my thoughts aren't running as deep as others.

Personally, my game Dungeon Rummage - Origins will not go for less than 20 bucks (unless it's on sale) I frankly don't care if it devalues, enriches, or whatever else people may claim it would do to other people's work.

I'd go as far as even asking 25-30 for it once it's done. And if people won't buy it, then I probably just didn't market it well enough, because people will buy anything if you market it right. But even in the off chance that the game just somehow isn't worth 20 bucks, that's my business alone and my decission lead to this.

I do agree with @TheAM-Dol here for the most part. Even I myself will just not even look at games that are 5 bucks. Simply because in my mind, games for 5 bucks are one off games at best, hot garbage at worst. Sure, I might miss a few hidden gems here and there, and that's fine because you know what? There's hundreds of games releasing every day of the week, and the day has only so many hours to play a game anyway.

So yeah, I encourage everyone to put some actual pricetags on their well made games.

P.S. On the topic of how the community is: This community has always been great to me throughout my journey. From absolute noob until now. Wouldn't wanna miss it.

 

[cthulhusquid]

Personally for me, I don't care about my games being commercial. I didn't get into the hobby to sell them, nor do I care that I spent money on tilesets or invested my time which could easily have been spent elsewhere. I do it for fun, and as long as I feel satisfied with what I've made and my vision that's all I care about. Of course, I want people to play them but like I said it's not for money.

 

[Sword_of_Dusk]

Even I myself will just not even look at games that are 5 bucks. Simply because in my mind, games for 5 bucks are one off games at best, hot garbage at worst. Sure, I might miss a few hidden gems here and there,

I kinda doubt you'd miss much for that price tag. I've found that anything below $15 has a rather high chance of being pretty poor, or just being straight up shovelware.

I should clarify that I'm speaking of major storefronts like Steam or the PS Store though. I don't have too many thoughts on stuff found on itch or Game Jolt since I don't browse them often and haven't played many games downloaded from them.

 

[SGHarlekin]

I kinda doubt you'd miss much for that price tag. I've found that anything below $15 has a rather high chance of being pretty poor, or just being straight up shovelware.

I should clarify that I'm speaking of major storefronts like Steam or the PS Store though. I don't have too many thoughts on stuff found on itch or Game Jolt since I don't browse them often and haven't played many games downloaded from them.

Yeah, that's why I said I "might". I don't think it's many, but chances are there are some gems in there, where someone just never marketed their game or something and it got lost in steam's dumpster. But yeah, I ain't about to find out lol.