Has 'Commercial' Focus Harmed The Community?

[Kes]

Laws decide what is right

This may end up as a huge digression. I hope not, but anyway, here goes.

This does not stand up to logical scrutiney. For example, there is no law in western democracies saying that adultery is illegal. Does that mean that adultery is right? Moral? On the other hand there are countries where adultery is illegal. Does it suddenly become wrong? Immoral just because you've stepped from one side of a frontier to another?

There are many things which the vast majority consider wrong/immoral which are not covered by law at all. Take lying. There are a few specific cases where lying is illegal (perjury, for example, or in a contract). But most people would baulk at the thought that all other forms of lying, because there is no law against them, are therefore okay.

AND before you go wandering off into the byways of cultural relativism be aware that more people have sunk into their quicksands than you've had hot dinners.

I'm sure that Ironbrew, if he so wishes, can defend himself more than adequately against the way you try and slide from art/music which is covered by current copyright to books which because of their age are now outside copyright. But just to let you know that in Logic and Philosophy that move is known as The False Dilemma Fallacy. You might find it interesting to look it up.

 

[Lornsteyn]

@Kes
I think this would be an unnecessary discussion.
I guess on this site or steam are US Laws or some kind of international laws in charge. As long these have no clear terms on ai art, its at least allowed or a greyzone. Of course its not allowed here according to the ai thread, the leadership plays it safe, which is probably wise.
So until there is a general legal consensus, like it exists with rips etc, nobody is actually right.
This also means "its unethical", "stealing" or "morally wrong", words I have read often now in this ai case, are just opinions, not facts. Its just rude to throw them around.

I used the bookstuff only to describe how I could see a public use of old graphics etc. Dont make assumptions, like I wanna lay a trap or whatever for him.
The last question how he sees the public domain for books, was just curiousity.

I did say it is up to your interpretation, and I mostly don't care. I hold no grudges for whatever opinion you have.

Well, I dont know you. We just leave it at that then.

 

[Kes]

@Lornsteyn I was not specifically referring to the question of AI art, but to the general comment that morality is decided by law Furthermore, if describing something as "unethical", "stealing" or "morally wrong" is inadmissible as they are merely opinions, so also are the opposite assertions, so you would also need to refrain from making them. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I suggest we leave it there as this is derailing the thread considerably.

 

[Sword_of_Dusk]

This also means "its unethical", "stealing" or "morally wrong", words I have read often now in this ai case, are just opinions, not facts. Its just rude to throw them around.

I can't with this BS. Wow.

 

[HexMozart88]

I am so glad I have not replied to this thread.

 

[Lornsteyn]

@Kes
I agree, maybe the last two of our comments should be moved to the ai thread? They are not relevant for this topic. If the mods see fit.

if describing something as "unethical", "stealing" or "morally wrong" is inadmissible as they are merely opinions, so also are the opposite assertions, so you would also need to refrain from making them.

Here I disagree. But I would only discuss this furher in the suitable thread. Thats not here.

 

[KawaiiKid]

I've been using rpg maker since 2001. There has always been a commercial focus for rpg maker, it's just that back in the day there wasn't steam, you sold your game on indie game sites made for rpg maker.

 

[Milennin]

Not really. All it takes is stating you're working on a non-commercial project and you'll get responses that go along with that. If you don't say anything, sure, some people might assume you're making a commercial game or just post their opinions as if you were, but TBH, I'm not really seeing the problem. That said, I have personally no interest in commercial RPG Maker projects, I'm all in on the hobby side of the engine.

 

[Iron_Brew]

This also means "its unethical", "stealing" or "morally wrong", words I have read often now in this ai case, are just opinions, not facts. Its just rude to throw them around.

My opinions: Rude, how dare I.
Your opinions: Smart and rational.

I shall just have to accept it and move on, defeated

 

[Lornsteyn]

@Iron_Brew
Sigh, Its not really the words.
Its the way how they get used in the discussion often and I wasn't refering especially to you, but yeah lets end this here.
There is no point to discuss anything if people are too emotional about it. Besides I have nothing to win in this discussion anyway, since I couldn't care less how the ai stuff ends in the end. Im out now.

 

[Iron_Brew]

@Iron_Brew
Sigh, Its not really the words.
Its the way how they get used in the discussion often and I wasn't refering especially to you, but yeah lets end this here.
There is no point to discuss anything if people are too emotional about it. Besides I have nothing to win in this discussion anyway, since I couldn't care less how the ai stuff ends in the end. Im out now.

It's not "emotional" to have ethical concerns, pal. I agree though, there's no point in talking on it further.

 

[Imani]

Nice topic. I think it was very important that the strategy in the RPG Maker community also went towards commerce. And I'm not saying that because my team and I recently released a marketplace for RPG Maker games.

Back then, we were all euphoric and wanted to share our game ideas with everyone. Out of that euphoria, many communities were created. But the euphoria faded over the years and many communities died out again. Many game developers, artists, plugin developers and composers no longer have time for this community. Many of them are now also in the middle of life and have other priorities in life - like making money with their job.

And that's the point why I think it's good that we're moving towards commerce. If the makers can generate revenue and live off of it, then the RPG Maker community can only benefit from it because it stays alive and the support continues. You benefit from plugins and plugin support, you benefit from more graphics to use for our games, and game developers have additional motivation to share their passion.

 

[XPKobold]

Well, yes. The commercially route has harmed the community. Not since now, it started with the MV.
But Im not surprised since its understandable, the company wants money and the people need money, especially in these times.
Its bad for people who just want to make free games for the community and others, which arent driven by greed or the hope for financial success.
In regards to free fangames, in my opinion, copyright laws are backwards and need to be changed, at least for old stuff from the Snes era and before. And there really should be a place for fangames.

Unfortunately that's not going to happen considering this is the official forums as well as other sites are starting to crack down on it. Even though commercialism did harmed the previous community, it also really did help in the long run most folks understand the process on making rpg maker game for fun as well as for profit.

I do recall there was a lot of entitlement back then especially when stuff got paywalled. But it did open up more options instead of just one thing. Even the default RTP from the makers as well as the plugins from MV especially MZ is more than enough.

Also these days just having copyrighted stuff or even rips in games will just get taken down real fast.
Fangames tend to be frowned upon especially one in particular that keeps getting asked and said threads locked.

 

[sabao]

I've been using rpg maker since 2001. There has always been a commercial focus for rpg maker, it's just that back in the day there wasn't steam, you sold your game on indie game sites made for rpg maker.

This has always been fascinating to me, as there would have not been a legal English release of RPG Maker til XP in 2004!
I remember Ardorlea Games being one of the very few outfits commercially releasing their RM games back then, and they basically got the license to publish by purchasing the official Japanese version of the software. Absolutely brilliant move, that.

Back in the RM2k/RM2k3 days, the internet was still the wild west, intellectual property was more of a kind suggestion, and video games were an arguably simpler medium. It was kind of nice! Between the low resolution and the wealth of resources ripped from other commercial games, building a game that looked like all the good stuff coming out on consoles at the time just seemed easier. Still, for the majority, I think RPG Maker was just this interesting little nugget they ran into in some obscure corner of the internet, and then moved on. Very few people actually considered RPG Maker a real stepping stone to a serious career in games, so they pick something else up and never look back.

I reckon most of the holdovers around here still pumping out resources are either earning from RPG Maker-related work one way or another see this as no more than entertainment to do on the side.