Hit Chance Poll

What hit rate do you prefer?


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cthulhusquid

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I know this can be a divisive topic among people, since a lot of people hate RNG but there are also people who feel it is necessary for their game. What kind of hit chance range do you prefer/think is the most fun without causing issues? Is 100% Hit Chance needed for people to enjoy the game? Is 100% Hit Chance too easy?

I personally think 80-90% is a good spot, since it allows for a lot of hits but can also create tension, with the player knowing they might miss.
 

TheoAllen

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Here is a confirmation bias from one of my players.
95% hit chance, he said it missed a lot. 99% chance to hit is just right.

Why? The battle pace is fast. You hit hard, the enemy hits hard. Missed a shot basically a total loss. And that is frustrating.

Ultimately, in my recent game, I use guaranteed hit. Since my game is not about resource sapping, which some games use encounter saps a portion of your resources (MP, Items, etc) and HP over time. I don't. So, guaranteed hit is the best way to go.
 

cthulhusquid

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Here is a confirmation bias from one of my players.
95% hit chance, he said it missed a lot. 99% chance to hit is just right.

Why? The battle pace is fast. You hit hard, the enemy hits hard. Missed a shot basically a total loss. And that is frustrating.

Ultimately, in my recent game, I use guaranteed hit. Since my game is not about resource sapping, which some games use encounter saps a portion of your resources (MP, Items, etc) and HP over time. I don't. So, guaranteed hit is the best way to go.
So if a game is resource sapping, like my post-apocalyptic one, what hit chance would you suggest? 90%
 

TheoAllen

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So if a game is resource sapping, like my post-apocalyptic one, what hit chance would you suggest? 90%
That entirely depends on the context. And by context, I mean your game demo. You could have more valuable feedback from your players complaining about your game because that feedback is specific to your game than ask advice randomly to people who don't know about your game context. And no, I don't have experience in making an RPG about resource management.
 

cthulhusquid

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That entirely depends on the context. And by context, I mean your game demo. You could have more valuable feedback from your players complaining about your game because that feedback is specific to your game than ask advice randomly to people who don't know about your game context. And no, I don't have experience in making an RPG about resource management.
I know, but I'm not planning on releasing a demo for awhile.
 

Black Pagan

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I would start most of my Classes with above 90% Hit Chance, Anything below this gets frustrating. I have tried all other values - 75, 80, 85, They are all frustrating and feels like I'm simply trolling the Player with insane number of misses, the misses add up over time so eventually player sees a lot of misses, So 85% Hit chance feels like 75% for some reason..

The only exception here would be a Gunner class or OP Damage class which makes up for the misses by having a very high damage output. You will be surprised how much even a 95% Hit-chance makes the Player miss, If you consider the entire Game. So i think that's sufficient to insert some "Realism" into the game and make Player see those occasional "Misses" once every few Battles.

If you are looking to vary Hit-Chance, What i would suggest is maybe do it some other way. Here are some examples :

1> Gear Options.
Example : Ring of Juggernaught.
Grants 25% Crit Chance.
Drawback : Hit-Chance reduced by 5%

2> States.
Enemies afflict "Blind" State on Player, Reducing Hit-Chance of Player by 25%, Next Turn. Please don't extend Blind state for many turns, Its simply annoying, It should be a 1 or 2 Turn thing, I have seen so many games which do this, Its not fun.

3> Bosses.
Bosses could cast a Temporary Hit-Chance reduction of 10% ~ 15% for that Entire Battle. But make sure to inform your Player about this or else they would be wondering why they are missing.

I personally don't like games with Player characters having Hit-chance lower than 90%, There is no point to it. Also, The opposite would be true for enemies, I wouldn't want enemies with high hit-chance above 90%. One of the easiest ways to make the Player rush through beginning of the game is giving the enemies 75 ~ 85% Chance (Which means they miss most of the time, Making Player feel good and take very less damage, Which means you can get away with balance issues - If Enemies are doing too much damage).

Remember,Your game should be all about making the Player feel good, not to frustrate them or make them annoyed and rage-quit. We all want our Characters to feel accurate and powerful in battle, not clunky and pathetic.
 
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CraneSoft

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100%. Missing attacks is not fun. Just like how wasting bullets on thin air are not fun. The moment you have anything less, it means you are relying on RNG to land your hit, and the player is left constantly worrying if their next attack might miss because of a bad roll, and this is an absolute atrocious way of implementing RNG. Therefore deliberately having low hit base rates for the sake of "difficulty" is a concept I utterly despise.

If the base hit rate is 90% (the RPGMaker default) or less, chances are I'm going to instantly close and then uninstall the game after I miss my first hit on the weakest enemy in the game. Imagine playing an action RPG where you miss your first attack against a giant, stationary snail because that's how the hit rate works, and 10% is very high in terms of probability. It makes zero logical sense and is the main reason base hit rate should not be anything lower than 99%. There are many ways you can manipulate the hit rates over the course of the game on the situations where missing attacks made some sense, such as getting blinded, hitting very agile enemies, or OP attacks with low success rate etc. I don't want to see a level 99 character with the best gear to miss an attack against Lv1 slime because of 95% base accuracy - 5% base evasion.

Play any of the classic RPGs like the PS1/2 era Final Fantasy games and you will notice attacks almost never miss by default (unless in cases where you are trying to hit an aerial foe with your barefisted monk) because they all had established formulas to determine accuracy, then pick up any random amateurish free RPGMaker game and play through a few and you'll probably miss some attacks against a Lv1 slime in your first battle.
 

SolonWise

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I think 100% is a bad choice, but I still don't mind playing a game like this. The best option, however, is to give the player a chance to increase their characters' hit chance, with an accessory or even a weapon that increases the hit attribute.
 

Kes

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@SolonWise Why do you say that 100% "is a bad choice"? I can't evaluate your answer without knowing your reasons for saying so.
 

MagicPizzaGuy

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Chance must be always 100% and only decrease by states, items that take hit chance in order to give other stats or the skill is meant to have a lower chance of hitting.

Missing isnt fun, but the player must not be at comfort everytime. If there is a chance to miss, the player must be aware of it.
 
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SolonWise

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@Kes I think it makes more sense if the enemy has a chance to dodge an attack, unless the hero has some kind of magic equipment that makes all of his attacks hit without fail. In addition, when you can miss an attack, it makes the battle more unpredictable and therefore more fun. Let's say that if a battle has no RNG. All attacks hit, and the damage is always the same. In a situation like this, we can simply do the math and discover the results of the battle before it even starts. Another good mechanic is to give the player the option of using a strong attack with low accuracy or a weak attack with a 90% + chance of success.

But again: I still don't mind playing a game where all attacks have a 100% hit chance.
 
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HumanNinjaToo

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I think if you're doing turn based type combat, whether it's ATB, CTB, etc.; then hit rate should be no lower than 97%. A miss every now again is okay I think, somewhere around 1 miss to every 4-5 trash mob type encounters. I don't think skills should have a chance to miss on any type of trash mob. I can understand slightly higher chance to miss on certain types of bosses, but definitely not every boss in a game, just the ones who may have higher than normal speed because of lore reasons.

I voted the 100%, but that's because the 80-99% is too much wiggle room for my liking.
 

Wavelength

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ONE. HUNDRED. PERCENT.

Not 95%. Not 99%. Certainly not 50% or 75%. Anything less than 100%, in general, and you are trolling your player. You are leaving open the chance that RNG renders everything that the player does useless. The player has no agency to avoid getting screwed by that bad RNG pick. And you are also wasting the player's time, since all the misses do on average is to unnecessarily slow down the pace of battle.

This is especially true for a chronic-difficulty ("resource sapping") dynamic, because the extra hit you take from the enemies due to your Miss can't be easily erased after you win the battle.

Stick with 100% as the general rule. Then, if you want to make certain exceptions to it, you can:
  • You might offer flying enemies a 20% chance to Evade (and you should have some way for the player to take that chance away from the enemy - for example, hit it once with the Lightning element).
  • You could offer one class of weapons that deals big damage, but has a 30% chance to Miss (and so the player can opt into this risk-reward tradeoff if they want to).
  • You could have a Blind state that creates a 50% chance to miss with Physical attacks - this will add an interesting variation to the normal, snappy flow of battle; just make sure you don't have tons of enemies throwing this state on the characters, because it gets frustrating if it becomes a common thing.
  • You could give the characters a chance to Evade (or the enemies a chance to Miss), as a one-sided combat mechanic. No one will complain about getting "lucky" once in a while, especially when they're at death's door already. It's only when the characters miss (or the enemies evade) that it has the potential to get frustrating and needlessly slow down combat.
PS - Moving this to Game Mechanics Design; I think that's the best fit for this topic.
 
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Animebryan

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Anyone who complains about not having perfect accuracy is a spoiled rotten little brat! It's completely unrealistic to have perfect accuracy all the time. Having the default hit rate of 95% is pretty high on it's own, minus the enemy's 4% evade rate still gives a very good chance to land a blow. Heaven forbid should any of you delicate snowflakes ever get inflicted with Blind/Darkness & lose most of that accuracy for a few turns!

And for those of you who are complaining about the default ratio of 95% Hit Rate vs 4% Evade Rate, are you even using Yanfly's Hit Accuracy plugin? Which gives you more fine tuning in regards to Hit Rate vs Evade. Don't forget, as a designer, you can always make skills that don't miss (Certain Hit, +100% or more Hit Rate, etc.) or just have equipment that raises Hit Rate & protection from Hit Rate reducing states like Blind/Darkness.
 

Kes

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Anyone who complains about not having perfect accuracy is a spoiled rotten little brat!
you delicate snowflakes
I think you are being a tad harsh here, as well as being somewhat insulting. You do not make your argument more persuasive by slagging off those who disagree with you. No one is saying that enemies can't evade, or dodge (ditto the player), nor has anyone said that Blind/Darkness should never be used. I think @Wavelength has made a couple of pertinent points, and it might be better to address those and say why you think they are wrong, rather than just dismissing those concerns as being the result of feebleness on the part of the player.
 

bgillisp

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@CraneSoft : One note, the default set up in RPGMaker is not 90% to hit. It is 95% chance you land a hit, then a roll for a 5% Evade, which is not the same as 95% - 5%. It actually maths out to 90.25% as you have a 95% chance you hit, then a 95% chance they do not evade, so you get by rules of stats 0.95 * 0.95 = 0.9025 chance to hit.

However I did change it so that it worked exactly as you said in my game, a simple To hit - EVA, I just set all enemies to 0% EVA for physical attacks.

For those wanting 100%:

I view it as a risk/reward myself. I did 95% for physical attacks, but in return they can crit for bonus damage, and physical skills also do more damage than magical skills. So the 5% chance to miss is the trade off for the higher damage and chance to crit. Magical skills however only miss in two cases: Enemy has Magic Evade (in which case usually you can hit them physically for massive damage, like 9999), or they put up a state which makes them dodge all magic which you can dispel.

The main thing though is you need to make sure the player can control and manipulate the results. Xcom often gets flak for the bad hit rates (I'm sure we've all seen this meme):

Meme_tohit.png

Yet despite that, in Xcom you can usually manipulate the to hit rate. You can get closer. You can throw a grenade which they can't dodge. You can blow up their cover. You can flank them. There's all sorts of options to manipulate that hit rate so that it goes up in your favor. So if you do not use perfect hit rates you need to let the player have a way to manipulate the hit rate. Maybe they can equip an accessory? Maybe they can level up and get a perk that raises it? Maybe they can use a skill to never miss? Maybe you got a battle system like Xcom where they can flank the enemy and never miss if they backstab? Either way the player needs to feel like they can control the hit rate, and if they miss they should feel there is something they could have done to maybe improve their chances for the next time.
 

TheoAllen

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In addition, when you can miss an attack, it makes the battle more unpredictable and therefore more fun. Let's say that if a battle has no RNG. All attacks hit, and the damage is always the same. In a situation like this, we can simply do the math and discover the results of the battle before it even starts.
Disagree on the part that you could see the result before the battle started. That is probably true if your enemy is only doing basic attacks with constant damage in all turns. But we can add more RNG flavor that is not involving missing

1. Damage variance
2. Skill pattern with chance to proc
3. Chance to add debuff/buff

You have been wounded. But the enemy is about to die, so you choose to attack to see it left with 1 HP because variance. now one of your party members dies because that 1 HP enemy attacked your wounded actor that you have to pops up a tonic for revival that you could just use heal in the previous turn.
 

SolonWise

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@TheoAllen Yeah, but I said that you can only do the math if the battle has no RNG at all. I agree with other RNG options, but I also like the hit/miss mechanic.

@Wavelength I really disagree with the statement "Anything less than 100%, in general, and you are trolling your player." Its just a decision that the game designer have made. You may don't like it, but that doesn't mean that someone is trolling you. I even think it's a nice life lesson. **** happens in life and **** happens in games. Its up to us to overcome this.
 

CraneSoft

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@bgillisp Thanks for the enlightenment, I actually wasn't aware of that, although the end result is very much the same. This is just my gripe with the default hit rate system which is a very good indicator a game is going to be bad.

Manipulation of hit rates are going to be present in most games with an established combat system so no surprises there, and is in fact an extremely important strategy in Persona/SMT games, but even there you are going to be playing with "100% Hit Rate via buffs" or otherwise the player will be the one lying face down on the floor.
 

bgillisp

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@CraneSoft : Yeah, its really close to 90% with the defaults, and most will not even notice a whole 0.25% difference, you only really see the difference if you do something like 75% to hit and 50% EVA, which I have no idea why that would ever be done anyways.

And yep, the important thing is to let the player feel like they can control it.

@TheoAllen : There's similar gripes about variance, especially high levels of it. We've had threads on that before too.
 

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