How do you feel about LGBT characters in games?

How comfortable do you feel about LGBT characters in games?

  • I would be thrilled! I wish there were more.

    Votes: 56 45.5%
  • I would be positive to it, as long as it didn't take too much spot.

    Votes: 31 25.2%
  • I'd tolerate it / be neutral.

    Votes: 36 29.3%
  • It would make me feel uncomfortable.

    Votes: 5 4.1%
  • It goes against my morals or beliefs.

    Votes: 10 8.1%

  • Total voters
    123
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Archeia

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I believe a better way to describe that would be to say people can change.  


As people mature they often adapt or exhibit different or new personality traits.  And that is true for sexual preferences as well.  


I mean if we break it down, it can be argued that sexuality is from childbirth. I mean I'm asexual and never really got attached to the opposite gender sexually even now as 25. However personality can change from meek and shy to outgoing and confident because of environmental exposure and choices. Wouldn't that make them severely different?
 

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I believe a better way to describe that would be to say people can change.  


As people mature they often adapt or exhibit different or new personality traits.  And that is true for sexual preferences as well.  
People don't change their sexual preferences, they just realise that they might not be what they originally thought. To say they change it means that there's a choice there, but it's not. At all.


The choice comes in whether or not they embrace the fact, and how they deal with it, not the actual sexuality itself.
 
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Sated

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There's pretty good evidence that sexual preferences, up to and including things such as paedophilia, aren't something a person gets to choose. In all likelihood it's something that's genetically influenced, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're genetic (yet) because the evidence isn't quite there. In any case, the "people can change sexual preference" argument doesn't really wash. 


This thread is going around in circles. It's kinda funny to watch.
 
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Berylstone

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I mean if we break it down, it can be argued that sexuality is from childbirth. I mean I'm asexual and never really got attached to the opposite gender sexually even now as 25. However personality can change from meek and shy to outgoing and confident because of environmental exposure and choices. Wouldn't that make them severely different?


It can be argued, but I wouldn't ascribe to the theory.


I believe sexuality is subject to change as a person develops just as their other qualities and characteristics are.  I don't see it as unique in that respect.
 

Makio-Kuta

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@Reavenator Thanks for answering! That's clears that up pretty well.


When characters go off on tangents to defend something out of nowhere (be it orientation or anything else) I just call that 'author soap boxing' which yeah--- is a sign of a bad writer more than anything else.

PS: Here's an interesting idea: if you're going to add a homosexual character to your party, maybe you could also add a homophobe as a party member, or just as a major NPC (not necessarily the "burn them at the stake" kind of homophobe, but the "I tolerate it, but think it's wrong" kind of homophobe). It could lead to some interesting character interaction.
I have never done this in a game (yet. got one brewing though), however the web story I write with a friend has LGBTA+ characters and also has characters that for various reasons disagree with their lifestyles based on the world building. I do agree, that can open up a whole new window in the writing, especially if you want that to be a factor of the character's narrative - though you always run the risk of people pointing at characters and saying "you wrote them so you must think this way too!" It's really important in situations like that to remember that the author is NOT every character and that the views expressed in the story are not always ones they agree with. And as the author to remember that you are not all of the characters you write as well.
 

Archeia

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I believe sexuality is subject to change as a person develops just as their other qualities and characteristics are.  I don't see it as unique in that respect.


I think this is a weird thing. I mean while I was growing up I dated both genders (since 12) to see if I would be sexually attracted to one and it ended up as none. So I think saying this wouldn't hold water either. I think Sexuality is unique because of this. This would be where we draw the line and disagree :'D
 

Berylstone

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People don't change their sexual preferences, they just realise that they might not be what they originally thought. To say they change it means that there's a choice there, but it's not. At all.


The choice comes in whether or not they embrace the fact, and how they deal with it, not the actual sexuality itself.


No it doesn't.  People change without choosing to change.  


Change happens naturally and is a normal unavoidable process of human development.  I know many people who's sexual preferences have changed over the years.

I think this is a weird thing. I mean while I was growing up I dated both genders (since 12) to see if I would be sexually attracted to one and it ended up as none. So I think saying this wouldn't hold water either. I think Sexuality is unique because of this. This would be where we draw the line and disagree :'D


Some people change others do not.  How a person's sexuality develops is unique to every individual.


So for you individually it may have remained steady since 12 years of age.  But for others it hasn't.  That's all I am saying.


But if you would like to agree to disagree that's fine. 
 

Ksi

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No it doesn't.  People change without choosing to change.  


Change happens naturally and is a normal unavoidable process of human development.  I know many people who's sexual preferences have changed over the years.


No, you know many people who realised they were different all along and didn't understand themselves until later on in life. It's not choosing a different sexuality, it's realising 'oh, this is who I was all along!'


People can change without choosing to, but sexuality is not one of those things that do. People's perceptions of who they are change due to finally finding themselves. It's not a choice they make.
 

Archeia

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Berylstone, please avoid double posting, as it is against the forum rules. You can review our forum rules here. Thank you.


As a mod I have to enforce that. I had to merge 2 of your posts already.
 

Sated

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No it doesn't.  People change without choosing to change.  


Change happens naturally and is a normal unavoidable process of human development.  I know many people who's sexual preferences have changed over the years.


When people seemingly change their sexual preference, it's not really a change at all. It's actually a realisation and/or acceptance that they're attracted to people who they didn't realise and/or didn't want to accept that they were attracted to beforehand. Their sexuality was always the same, they just didn't act upon it, which can be because of a whole bunch of reasons (peer pressure, fear of bullying, fear of breaking societal norms or parental expectations being the main reasons). 
 
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Berylstone

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No, you know many people who realised they were different all along and didn't understand themselves until later on in life. It's not choosing a different sexuality, it's realising 'oh, this is who I was all along!'


People can change without choosing to, but sexuality is not one of those things that do. People's perceptions of who they are change due to finally finding themselves. It's not a choice they make.




But it is.


As I told you in my last post - I know many people who's sexual preferences have changed over the years.
 
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Archeia

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Maybe they're bisexual all along and they didn't know that. This is a thing. I mean this is pretty accurate based on popular studies.

When people seemingly change their sexual preference, it's not really a change at all. It's actually a realisation and/or acceptance that they're attracted to people who they didn't realise and/or didn't want to accept that they were attracted to beforehand. Their sexuality was always the same, they just didn't act upon it, which can be because of a whole bunch of reasons (fear of breaking societal norms or expectations being the main things). 
 
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Alexander Amnell

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Just going to step in here and disagree with basically everybody right quick, please don't hate me to much.

I would caution the game maker to make more non-normative games so that people see more variety and get to experience different types of characters. Flood the market with that **** and make them play cool-ass games that change their opinions (or else complain eternally about all the cool-looking games they can't play because eww teh gays omg what can play nuuuu :tears:). Frick them.
   Eh, there's a pretty significant difference in shoe-horning sexuality into a game and gameplay mechanics that make the mc out to be a badass. It's more than just whether a character is gay, bi or whatever for most people but how they are represented. We're at a point right now where diversity is the newest fad, and while I don't have anything against a diverse cast of characters, I don't like seeing my deep political/war intrigue game series that has always had a diverse cast anyway suddenly turn into LGBTCQ saves the world while nattering about their sexuality non-stop along the way.


   Don't get me wrong, diversity is fine, and I'm definitely a fan of your previous comment about having gay/bi/whatever characters in your game that the player may or may not ever realize is anything other than what their default perception is. I have no problem with them being in games, I just don't want to be forced to engage in gameplay about sex and sexuality in a game where it serves no purpose other than to "Make them get out of their comfort zone" or whatever. People have lots of reasons not to want to play that kind of stuff, far beyond just being bigoted.


   Personally to me its that I view participating in virtual relationships and such as a form of cheating, that's just my opinion and I feel I'm entitled to it no matter how many people may call me backwards or bigoted for it. If you want to make a game about relationships then make one about relationships, I don't understand how people think that shoe-horning in 'surprise dating sim gameplay' and the like is supposed to change anyone's opinion though personally. It just  causes me to take a trip to gamestop. If that's your vision, fine. Market it as such and your audience will find you. If not, to me anything more romantic than FFX in a game where the pc is meant to be an avatar for the player is a bit underhanded, make it optional please.

Not necessarily.


For example: I have played several games in the past where I really enjoyed the game play.  But what would have otherwise been an enjoyable play experience was literally ruined for me because I was forced to play as a character who's personality I could not stand.  


I have always believed games needlessly turn off players by forcing players to role-play as certain in-your-face personalities that may or may not agree with the player.  So to me - that's just an unnecessary risk if you are going to invest so much of your time and energy into a project as draining as creating a video game.  
   I'll never understand that argument, probably because I came into video games late in life with a lifetime love of reading. There are so many different beliefs and viewpoints in this world that the idea of avoiding personality traits is just silly. You can respect a character and his/her struggles without having to personally agree with everything they do. The only caveat to this I'd say would be where the player character is meant to be nothing more than an avatar for the player but then is forced to choose one way or be talked down to for 'making the wrong choice (Inquisition, anyone?)


   Books have gotten away with this for decades, why not games? Characters can be likable with any number of unlikable traits, people are all different. I love and accept my wife but that doesn't mean we don't have vastly divergent opinions in some area or another. It's not what a character is that should bother you so much as what is foisted upon that character merely for 'the sake of (insert agenda here)'. With purpose and distinction, even a controlling, genocidal maniac can be an endearing character. (Delita Hyral, Final Fantasy Tactics). So arguing that LGBT characters can't is just plain silly.

If you want to make a game that has a protagonist who makes a point to describe his or her homosexuality you are going to turn off a significant amount of players.  That is just a fact.


It may not bother you, or me for that matter (it wouldn't by the way).  But a game-maker must decide what is more important.  Is it appealing to a broader audience or is it making the player role play as a homosexual.  That's why I advised caution - because I think those are important considerations to weigh.
   We're all indies here anyway, so while there is a grain of truth to all that I'd say it's not really worth worrying about to much. It all boils down to the developers own personal vision, I believe if you are honest with your audience than you will find an audience no matter what your vision is. It's all the shoehorning in of different opinions just for the sake of 'inclusion' that I personally can't stand, and I believe that's true for a lot of the other dissenters here, its the feeling I get when my epic action game suddenly turns into "the all-inclusive-bachelor" that makes me disgusted with 'diverse games' not the diversity itself. But try to say that in a game review, and you'll get nothing but hate. The diversity crowd can be just as bigoted and tunnel-visioned as any other group when it wants to be, and that is where I feel most people are grated wrong by the whole movement, as it pertains to games, television, literature or what have you.


Whew, I'm gonna walk away now. In the time it took me to type all this I think there were at least two dozen replies, this topic moves fast. Sorry if anything I said ended up being redundant or already addressed as a result.
 

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Maybe they're bisexual all along and they didn't know that. This is a thing. I mean this is pretty accurate based on popular studies.


Which is basically what I said - that they didn't know all along who they really were and only realised when they seemed to suddenly change their preference. They didn't change their sexuality, they just realised what it really was.
 

Makio-Kuta

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'oh, this is who I was all along!'
What a wonderful feeling that is.


Which is why I think it's really important for media (games and otherwise) to include a variety of orientations in stories when they can because life is confusing, your brain is confusing, and you can easily go almost 30 years of your life not understanding who you are or what your feelings mean because they are not the 'norm' and forever think you're STRANGE or BROKEN because of it. Seeing someone else, fictional or not, like you can mean SO MUCH.
 

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When people seemingly change their sexual preference, it's not really a change at all. It's actually a realisation and/or acceptance that they're attracted to people who they didn't realise and/or didn't want to accept that they were attracted to beforehand. Their sexuality was always the same, they just didn't act upon it, which can be because of a whole bunch of reasons (peer pressure, fear of bullying, fear of breaking societal norms or parental expectations being the main reasons). 


That may be true of some people Sataed but not all.


Not everyone has the same sexual preferences they did at 12 years old that they have now.  


I have to go. :)    Thank you for the interesting conversation.
 

Ksi

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What a wonderful feeling that is.


Which is why I think it's really important for media (games and otherwise) to include a variety of orientations in stories when they can because life is confusing, your brain is confusing, and you can easily go almost 30 years of your life not understanding who you are or what your feelings mean because they are not the 'norm' and forever think you're STRANGE or BROKEN because of it. Seeing someone else, fictional or not, like you can mean SO MUCH.


Personally I like writing characters who are past that point and found out who they are and come to terms with it. Life isn't always going to be sunshine and daisies at that point (there's always going to be dragons who need slaying and princesses who need saving (or helping to save the hapless prince) and demons to strike bargains with that you just know are going to bite you in the ass come monday) but there are good points and being at peace with who you are can change your outlook on life a hell of a lot and give people who are still struggling to come to terms with their new realisations something to hope for and work towards.


@Berylstone Dude, seriously, it's not that they changed but that they realised they were never what they thought. It's like suddenly realising 'oh, I was adopted and I have this whole other heritage I never knew about'. That they didn't know they were adopted doesn't mean they chose that heritage or that they were never that heritage to begin with. To make it easier for you to understand:


Fact - they were always gay


Fact - they thought they were straight


Fact - they dated lots of girls and thought they were happy doing so


Fact - they came to the realisation they were gay the whole time


Fact - suddenly seems like they changed but in reality they were gay all along


Fact - the whole time. they just didn't know.


You do not choose your sexuality - if it were a choice then all those kids who commit suicide because of the pressure they are put under to 'be normal' would not exist because they would have chosen to be straight. It is not a choice and anyone who says 'oh I chose to be gay' is lying or just doesn't yet realise they were either gay/bisexual/pansexual/etc all along.
 
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Galenmereth

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Fact - they were always gay


Fact - they thought they were straight


Fact - they dated lots of girls and thought they were happy doing so


Fact - they came to the realisation they were gay the whole time


Fact - suddenly seems like they changed but in reality they were gay all along


Fact - the whole time. they just didn't know.


You do not choose your sexuality - if it were a choice then all those kids who commit suicide because of the pressure they are put under to 'be normal' would not exist because they would have chosen to be straight. It is not a choice and anyone who says 'oh I chose to be gay' is lying or just doesn't yet realise they were either gay/bisexual/pansexual/etc all along.


Citation needed. Also overly generalized. "They thought they were straight": how, exactly, do you know that isn't true? How could you know? "Fact - they dated lots of girls and thought they were happy doing so": so who figured out later on that they weren't actually happy? Who measured that?


I get what you're trying to say but don't prepend pure speculation with the word fact please.
 

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@Galenmereth Usually this one is accurately measured through the self-reports of LGB people and a common experience that comes up when LGB people talk to each other. Source: am an LGB person who has talked to other LGB people and had the "wow I thought I was straight/convinved myself I was straight for years and then was not!!! Wild" convo multiple times.  This was also my experience!  


And I mean, alright: I am personally a believer in that sexuality is fluid and that there are other factors that influence who people form relationships with, including choice, but yup it is hard to ignore the effects of assumed heterosexuality, heterosexuality as the norm, and homo/biphobia against LGB people when talking about that, and usually why I don't engage in such discussions outside of LGB circles, since it usually ends with someone saying "SO U CAN CHOOSE TO IGNORE THE GAY!!!" when... no.  It is more complex than that.  
 

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Citation needed. Also overly generalized. "They thought they were straight": how, exactly, do you know that isn't true? How could you know? "Fact - they dated lots of girls and thought they were happy doing so": so who figured out later on that they weren't actually happy? Who measured that?


I get what you're trying to say but don't prepend pure speculation with the word fact please.


I thought it was pretty obvious that my non-existent person was an example of prime 'but they chose to change their sexuality because they dated lots of girls and were happy with being straight but now they're gay so they must have chosen because they weren't all emo over it' argument, but apparently not.


That said, I did base it on a guy I personally know who did exactly that. Hell, I dated him three times, and he made the rounds with most of the girls in my year (and a fair few the year below) and was pretty damn happy. Then three years later he's realised that he was gay, happily dated a male model and has been out as gay ever since. (Of course, how he responded to his realisation changed, but not the fact that he was gay all along - he went through a fabulously flamboyant stage, a descreet stage, a comfortable stage and a rage stage, and has settled on an easy-in-love stage with his current boyfriend (who is also a male model... he definitely has a type)).


He's told me that he realised he was gay all along, that he thought he was straight but there was always something off about how he felt about his past relationships and the closeness with the women in them. Part of it was that he is naturally a very friendly, flirty guy - even now he flirts with any and every person he meets. He has a natural charisma that makes you feel close to him, and he says it makes him feel close to people too - so when he found himself being drawn to people (and there being no shortage of girls who were drawn to him when we were teens ) he responded because he thought that was how he was naturally supposed to feel when it came to sexual attraction. Of course, when he felt real attraction he realised the difference between the two and understood that 'hey, I'm gay... not attracted to girls sexually, I just like them and they flirted with me so I flirted back and welp'.


His sexuality wasn't a choice - he chose to flirt, yes, but that didn't make him heterosexual. It just made him a whole lot of confused when he met his first boyfriend. XD


Also, of course it was completely generalized - the guy wasn't getting the message unless it was broken down in the most basest of elements at a level a five year old could understand. Never let it be said I can't teach the simple minded.
 
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