How do you feel about LGBT characters in games?

[Kes]

Yet another reminder that this discussion is about game design, not sexual politics nor a discussion about the correct categorisation of different behaviours. If people want to have that particular conversation I can, at the OP'S request move this to General Lounge. Otherwise, please stick to the sort of conversation this section of the forum is supposed to foster.

Thank you

 

[LootHunter]

@LootHunter:

Out of curiousity: Do heterosexual characters need a "proper context" to be included in a story for you, too?

Of course. It's just most games context is heterosexual. If you make "gay fantasy" than obviously openly heterosexual characters would be out of place. And in case where hetero/homo peacefully coexist then you should warn people.

For example, if you story is about brave knight who goes to save a princess and in the end he marries her - it's ok. If your story is about brave knight who goes to save a prince and in the end he marries him - it's also ok. But if your story is about brave knight who goes to save a princess and in the end he tells her "bye-bye" and marries his... i don't know squire - it's not ok, as heterosexual people would be disappointed (and probably enraged).

Well, maybe I indeed exaggerated about homo-relations in DA:I, but still, I think that focusing only on specific group of sexual preferrences is wrong.

1) Because beastiality is, at it's core, non-consensual.  Comparing sexuality that involves 2+ consenting adults to raping animals is incorrect at best and carries some super awful implications about LGB people at worst.  There is absolutely a history of painting LGB folks as sexual predators based on whom we are attracted to, so by invoking comparisons like this, you also call to the surface reminders of reasons LGB people have been historically oppressed, institutionalized, criminalized, etc.  Basically the short version is "it's incorrect" and the long version is "It's incorrect and also tasteless and insulting".

So in other world, you rationalize your distaste of beastiality by calling it "raping of animals", but at the same time complain about generally the same thing - that straight people rationalize their distaste of homosexuality. Don't you think it's... well, biased approach?

Let me be straight (sorry for the pun). I am heterosexual male and I don't like depiction of homosexual love. But still, I know that my taste is not an absolute measure of morality. I can play game with non straight characters and I can even appreciate those characters if they are well executed. But what I do not stand is when people talk one thing and mean another.

If you are talking "sexual diversity" then you should think different sexual diversity. If you are meaning LGBT then say it straight, like this guy.

I am a game dev who makes games about LGBT people with an audience of LGBT people in mind.  If you're not part of that audience, I actually don't care about how you feel about my choice to write about LGBT people.  You're not part of the intended audience!  So, hey, if you can't enjoy it?  Too bad, I guess.  Hope you find something else you can enjoy.

 

[LootHunter]

Yet another reminder that this discussion is about game design, not sexual politics nor a discussion about the correct categorisation of different behaviours. If people want to have that particular conversation I can, at the OP'S request move this to General Lounge. Otherwise, please stick to the sort of conversation this section of the forum is supposed to foster.

The topic was "How do you feel about LGBT characters in games?"

And as author elaborated on the topic:

In case you don't know, the term LGBT stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bi and Transgender, but I just want to talk about sexual / gender / identity diversity here.

So I can say that I feel that games with LGBT characters too often declared as games promoting "sexual diversity" while in reality they only promote only LGBT. My opinion is that design of such games should be made the way, so that topic is clear. This way accidental people would not be frustrated and angered by "unexpected turn" of the story.

 

[Clangeddin]

Of course. It's just most games context is heterosexual.

Interesting. How is, for example, FF4's (but even 8, 10, 13 and many more games) context heterosexual rather than homosexual?

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

And in case where hetero/homo peacefully coexist then you should warn people.

...what?!

For example, if you story is about brave knight who goes to save a princess and in the end he marries her - it's ok. If your story is about brave knight who goes to save a prince and in the end he marries him - it's also ok. But if your story is about brave knight who goes to save a princess and in the end he tells her "bye-bye" and marries his... i don't know squire - it's not ok, as heterosexual people would be disappointed (and probably enraged).

Or you can have a knight who isn't in it just to marry the prince/princess, regardless of their sexuality. Or a knight who's already married to someone before the story starts. Or the knight's relationship with another character can develop during the story.

No one needs permission to have LGBT characters in their story. No one should care if someone dislikes that a story doesn't fit the cliche they assumed it would, for any reason. And frankly, if someone's enjoyment of a character or even the whole darn game is ruined because the character turns out to be gay, I wouldn't give a hoot.

 

[gstv87]

well,... IF the character adds something to the story, then it really doesn't matter which sexual orientation they have.

you can probably go with genderless creatures that discuss some points of behavior with the protagonists.

implying male/male or female/female relationships has to be done with a certain touch... if you have a male character sacrifice himself for the love of another character, and this other character acknowledges that and accepts it,... then it's perfectly fine!

it adds a touch of poetry and drama to the story.

say you have a gay-ish male that flirts with one of the male protagonists... if you have that character die protecting his love interest, that's a very powerful resource, because it shows him being probably more manly than the protagonist himself.

you can also add lesbian females that mostly flirt with another character (and the flirting goes both ways), and then kill one of them, and have the other one realize their love was true and not some casual flirting.

the only way you can realize how important something is, is when that something is absent.

create the void, and imply necessity.... that's how it works.

then again, if you do add it, it has to be done only to deliver that "shock" effect: make the other characters (or the player) realize they misjudged the character, in whatever way you want.

it can't be done otherwise.

 

[JosephSeraph]

When I stated diversity, I did mean diversity. It means having games with an all straight-cis cast, while having other games with a cast that's made of 100% transgender men or gay women or bisexual nongendered people or whatever else and obviously and perhaps more importantly ,everything in between. I don't mean diversity in-game, exclusively, I also mean a diversity of games.

On the topic of "realism" , scaling down a numerical proportion to a cast of 6 people isn't realistic. You can't have a person be 47% gay, for example. And it doesn't matter. As I've shared from my own life experience in the thread here, it is perfectly plausible and it does happen in real life that a bunch of LGBT+ people wind up together by mere coincidence. In my case it happened that 13 gay male teachers were working together on the same school out of pure coincidence, when even the female to male ratio amongst teachers is much higher. What, if I were to make a game about these 13 teachers, it wouldn't be "realistic"? it doesn't have to be.

Also, there's no such thing as "gay fantasy". When I bought Final Fantasy IV it wasn't labeled "straight fantasy". I think I actually probably approached the topic in a less than optimal way but even so I think it is bringing meaningful discussion and thinking amongst the community. Hopefully it fosters something positive.

 

[Chrispy]

If you try to write a game for everyone by including a LGBT character, then you are not really writing the game for everyone because there are people who object to that, no matter how much you try to justify it with numbers and real world statistics. If you try to make a 'realistic' game by including LGBT characters because they are part of a real world population, then you are  not actually writing a realistic game. All you are doing really is including that scaled-down population average, that doesn't actually represent any population anywhere. so what if 1% of the country is Transgender? Unless you are trying to recreate that entire country of people with the full range of beliefs, orientations, and races, that number is meaningless and you can use pretty much anything else and still make it believable.

Other than that, I don't have any opinion on this subject in either direction.

 

[Milkdud]

I'm perfectly fine with it, as long as the character isn't shoehorned in for the sake of it or a big deal isn't made about their sexuality.

 

[LootHunter]

How is, for example, FF4's context heterosexual rather than homosexual?

FF4 setting is based on medieval (at least partly). And in real world medieval times were times of heterosexual society. So most players would expect such settings to be straight, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

No one needs permission to have LGBT characters in their story. No one should care if someone dislikes that a story doesn't fit the cliche they assumed it would, for any reason. And frankly, if someone's enjoyment of a character or even the whole darn game is ruined because the character turns out to be gay, I wouldn't give a hoot.

Than no one should complain about someone who disliked the LGBT turn in a game and made an angry comment about it.

 

[JosephSeraph]

FF4 setting is based on medieval (at least partly). And in real world medieval times were times of heterosexual society. So most players would expect such settings to be straight, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

That's moot. I'm playing a medieval fantasy game not to relive the inquisition and witch burning, but to hunt dragons and save crystals. (unless the whole point of the game is witch burning and sexuality-induced beheading)

Not to mention FFIV is as "medieval" based as it is greek and roman based (look at toroia, look at the monsters, etc) and in those cases homosexuality was pretty much the norm. And monogamy as we know today wasn't exactly popular either, it was brought by christianity basically.

Some setting being vaguely and liberally inspired by (a multitude of) real world settings is not a reason to expect it to be a carbon copy of them.

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

FF4 setting is based on medieval (at least partly). And in real world medieval times were times of heterosexual society. So most players would expect such settings to be straight, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

Medieval society didn't have dragons or lavender-haired idiots, but I guess those are acceptable breaks from reality. But gay people existing?! 

(Nonetheless the absurd idea of a "setting" being "straight"...)

 

[Brillenpinguin]

@Loot: Never heard of a"gay setting" in my life before. The only thing coming in mind there to me would be the CSD xD

To stay in Topic for once: Of course Gameplay-wise queer people usually don't have any special effects, their orientations serve more as world building devices (since they show how gay people are treated in their world) and help to make a more diverse cast that is closer to real life as well as opening new stroy possibilities.

However I think for gender/sexuality based enemies f.e. (like nymphs or incubbus) people who have different sexual orientations than hetero could benefit from that and have a natural resistance. So a gay man could be resistent to a nymph, while his lesbian party member is all over the place for her charming.

 

[LootHunter]

That's moot. I'm playing a medieval fantasy game not to relive the inquisition and witch burning, but to hunt dragons and save crystals. (unless the whole point of the game is witch burning and sexuality-induced beheading)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember the crystals were shown in the title screen of the game and introduced into the story early on. Dragons were in the previous FF installments, so all players shouldn't be surprised to see them again. I don't remember any gay characters in FF 1-3, so if there are gay in FF4 (sorry, but I managed to play less then half a game, so I don't know about that) then it's totally unexpected.

FFIV is as "medieval" based as it is greek and roman based (look at toroia, look at the monsters, etc) and in those cases homosexuality was pretty much the norm. And monogamy as we know today wasn't exactly popular either, it was brought by christianity basically.

That was exactly my point several comments ago. Why are there so many attempts to include LGBT characters, but polyamory topic remains largely untouched?

Medieval society didn't have dragons or lavender-haired idiots, but I guess those are acceptable breaks from reality. But gay people existing?! 

So I consider openly gay people, who are not prosecuted in medieval society, a break from reality. Am I worng?

 

[Brillenpinguin]

@LootHunter: Does that mean I don't exist? O-O because me being queer would mean I'm a break from reality.

Sorry for my sarcasm, but seriously, you basically say you don't like games with gay characters because you are not gay. That is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But liking gay people isn't the topic of this discussion right now.

 

[Kes]

Sorry to those who wish to discuss the OP's question but...

I have asked people to discuss the game making principles involved here and that request is being ignored again. It is also on the brink of becoming yet another argument about aspects of FF. Note this is now in blue font and is not to be ignored again. This is not the place for a wider discussion of sexual politics, but for discussing game making. Sexual themes and issues have a place in that discussion, but don't go and extend it beyond the purpose of this forum.

 

[Nocturnic]

As someone who is bisexual, I actually do not mind LGBT characters at all; and as long as you don't focus on the LGBT character(s) being LGBT, and rather focus on them being characters; it's a great idea.

Undertale (Undyne and Alphys), Dragon Age (Zevran and Leliana) and Mass Effect (Liara and Morinth) are great examples of this; as they had focused on character, and not LGBT. If you are going to have an LGBT character, have them be actually a character, not just have LGBT define them so to put it simple, the character should be the emphasis, not LGBT.

Remember:

LGBT character

Not LGBT character

 

[JosephSeraph]

kjsp27, we are discussing a rather complex topic and it is impossible to avoid going on certain subtopics while discussing it unless we treat the conversation as an improductive minefield. We are discussing BOTH """""sexual politics""""" AND game making, and unless you make a subforum named "sexual politics and gamemaking" I feel it will be quite hard to make this discussion cater to either of the subforums. You may keep the topic here and we'll talk about both and be moved for touching sexual politics, or you could move the topic elsewhere and move it back here because we are talking about game development, or I don't know whatever else you would do as the topic is clearly being home to a courteous and educated exchange of thoughts. 

It is clear that approaching sexual "politics" (i fail to see how this is politics at all) is a game development topic as it is something game developers should be aware of in case they want to write about, and at the same time it is a topic about sexual "politics" because, well, it is the topic. "game making principles" go beyond mere gameplay, they also cater to the whole medium of games, and how you as a game developer make choices in relation to your game. Choices that can go from narrative, to gameplay, to branding, to a plethora of other healthy and pertinent topics.

So I consider openly gay people, who are not prosecuted in medieval society, a break from reality. Am I worng?

Yes, openly gay and non-proscecuted people in some medieval societies are a break from reality, sadly.

That was exactly my point several comments ago. Why are there so many attempts to include LGBT characters, but polyamory topic remains largely untouched?

I did intend to embrace polyamory when I made the topic. This is why I said my scope was broader than just LGBT characters.

In any case, when you build a game you are encouraged to create your own setting for the game, regardless of influences. Final Fantasy IV is an interesting example of it since it meshes roman, greek, medieval european and even african culture to a minor extent (as well as a lot of other subtle influences) , and really it is a thing in quite a plethora of RPGs. (mostly JRPGs, since western RPGs have had this thing of always reusing the same tired tolkien world of orcs and elves, now it is gladly fading)

But welp. I'm glad to hear your opinion. And although I myself have no interest in writing polyamory at the moment (it's somethinh I don't know much of, don't relate and don't feel a particular reason to write it) i would be happy to have it in a game I play, as long as it's well written (as anything else, really. Few things are more cringeworthy than badly written social / romantic interactions)

 

[Espon]

Sorry to those who wish to discuss the OP's question but...

I have asked people to discuss the game making principles involved here and that request is being ignored again. It is also on the brink of becoming yet another argument about aspects of FF. Note this is now in blue font and is not to be ignored again. This is not the place for a wider discussion of sexual politics, but for discussing game making. Sexual themes and issues have a place in that discussion, but don't go and extend it beyond the purpose of this forum.

Man, stop being such a stick-in-the-mud.  It's a complex and sensitive subject, so it may veer off the path a little bit.  It still relates to games as it's part of media as a whole.  No need to be so strict.

 

[Kes]

@Epsom

Just to remind you, if youwant to argue with a mod's decision, you do so by pm, not by starting an argument in a thread. And I do not appreciate being called a stick in the mud.

Could I suggest you re-read these posts. If you do, you will see that some of them veer off into the personal in a way which is not helpful to the overall discussion.