How do you feel about LGBT characters in games?

[Alexander Amnell]

    I honestly want as little mention of sexuality in games as possible, just as  general rule. I don't mean pretend it doesn't exist, but in games where most/all characters are hetero than with the exception of an actual story-based reason such as a relationship developing between two of the main characters the closest a game will come to espousing sexuality is usually by having houses where two npc's live together, maybe a mention of husbands/wives occasionally or a side quest to help a hopeless lovelorn kid attract attention from his crush. This is all cool, it's natural even in a way, regardless of gender preferences or whatever. What isn't is the gay guy in your party coming to you, the military leader he's only met like a month ago and asking you to come with him and help him come out to his parents or the lesbian party member telling me in no uncertain terms when she first joins the party that she's a lesbian and isn't interested in my male character even though my character hasn't tried to flirt with her/ogle her/ ask about her sexuality. 

   Any kind of consensual relationship between two or more adults is fine for me in a game/book/whatever, I'm not that knitpicky. But I want them to be represented in a realistic manner, not to come from an agenda that says 'we can use this medieval adventure game sequel as a political correctness litmus test where we shame people for making 'choices' in the game we disagree with as developers while glossing over any viewpoint that isn't our own as merely the 'wrong choice' in this game we've made and advertised as 'choices matter'.

   Granted, I don't know that many gay people myself and as far as I'm aware have never actually met and talked to at length either a bisexual or transgender individual (though as I'm about to admit it wouldn't surprise me if I'm just mistaken and ignorant in that regard) but from my admittedly limited experience people living those lifestyles aren't all that different than your typical heterosexual outside of the actual sexual preference and as such don't actually go around announcing their sexuality to everyone they meet right out, so why should they in a game? For example here, I only found out recently that a young man who is a friend of the family that I have been teaching carpentry and paying to help out around my property since he was a preteen was gay, and I wouldn't have learned when I did except that my wife made some comment about how pretty her niece was getting, just one of those ribbing, nosey comments adults make to mess with budding 18 year old kids that prompted him to mention that he 'actually had a boyfriend'. 

   So yeah, put same-sex npcs in the same house for me to discover when I go on the required town kleptomania run and rummage through their things or include a romance between two main characters if the story actually calls for it, just please don't have the lesbian innkeep announce to the whole common room that she's a lesbian everytime a new customer comes to rent a room. In my experience peoples of all orientations are happier in a world where what we do in our bedrooms are generally kept between those actually in the bedroom at the time and perhaps a close friend or two, and I like keeping it that way both in my life and my video games. That is my two cents on the matter.

 

[Sated]

FF4 setting is based on medieval (at least partly). And in real world medieval times were times of heterosexual society. So most players would expect such settings to be straight, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

I like how I already made a post in this very thread explaining why this logic is ridiculous, and yet someone manages to use it almost verbatim later on. FUN!

In a medieval-inspired fantasy setting like Final Fantasy 4, where people can throw fireballs at each other and biologically unrealistic monsters exist and crystals control the destiny of the planet, you're already deviating enough from objective real-world concepts like fundamental physics (yet alone subjective real-world concepts like politics or social norms or whatever) that assuming the setting has to mirror a specific part of its real-world inspiration (in this case homophobia, but it could be anything) is pretty ridiculous. 

 

[SLEEP]

in final fantasy 4, a lot of problems would be solved if kain and cecil and rosa were all mutually in love. all kain needs is double smooches from rosa and cecil im just saying. I mean, also, a lot of problems could have been solved if nobody threw fireballs at each other. thats my 2 cents.

 

[Column]

I clicked view results before I saw it said it would null my vote, dang. So add one to the middle, "tolerate" tab for me. I take homosexual characters in games the same way I do in real life. As they come. If a character is openly gay, or has obvious homosex tendencies, ok, so what? But if it's abrasively in your face gay this and gay that, I call it quits. I don't mind if a game dabbles in any particular subject, especially if it's relavant to modern day culture, but if someone tries to use gaming as a platform to push an agenda, I pass.

My current project is sort of a spiritual successor to the Shadow Hearts games from back on the PS2, and anyone who's played those might remember a pair of quite flamboyant merchants that seemed to follow the party around. I liked those guys, as characters, they were whitty, comical, and even though you KNEW they were back door bandits, the game never really made an issue of it. That, I can appreciate.

 

[Wavelength]

I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up in this topic, but homosexuality was encouraged in some Greek and Roman cultures during the Classical Era ("antiquity"), and these cultures do sometimes influence game settings, even though the Medieval Era (or at least the view of it espoused by Victorian Romanticism and the like) does tend to influence game settings - especially RPGs - more than antiquity does.  Interestingly I think homosexuality was more taboo in the "real" medieval era than the real Victorian era, whereas it seemed to be almost a non-factor in most of the (admittedly limited) Romanticism that I've been exposed to.

I suppose how "authentic" we want to be (in our games) about the real-world settings we use for inspiration is a complicated issue, but the point of all my rambling here is that homosexuality and bisexuality would be completely reasonable in a lot of fantasy settings that kind of take cues from all different parts of human history.  (Transexuality - harder for obvious reasons in low-magic settings.)  Even moderately authentic throwbacks like Game of Thrones have no compunctions about including characters like the Prince of Flowers (who I've fondly nicknamed "Gay Fabio" because I'm terrible with remembering names) and, because they're good at writing this kind of stuff, not only convincingly wrote the character but also bettered the plot by having other characters scapegoat him for his sexual tendencies.

 

[LootHunter]

I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up in this topic, but honosexuality was encouraged in some Greek and Roman cultures

So what? For the looks of it other... well, "uncommon sexual practices" were not exactly prohibited in some cultures either. Yet, in this exact topic people call them "tasteless and downright insulting".

 

[Wavelength]

So what? For the looks of it other... well, "uncommon sexual practices" were not exactly prohibited in some cultures either. Yet, in this exact topic people call them "tasteless and downright insulting".

First of all, shame on you for intentionally derailing the topic (which is about the presence of LGBT characters in games, not the morality of LGBT), as your entire response to my on-topic post.

Second of all, shame on you for your ridiculous assumption that I have the exact same opinions or beliefs about LGBT or any other sexual matters just because I agree that LGBT characters can and should sometimes appear in video games.  I (lightheartedly) say people should be able to marry their house plant if they want to (if nothing else it would be a great way to get bereavement leave!), so don't use other peoples' stated beliefs as a way to try to force a contradiction into my own beliefs.

Third of all, shame on you for being such a disgustingly close-minded individual.  People with that kind of mindset were the reason that interracial marriage was against the law in many countries for so long.  I sincerely hope that the next time something that you care about in life is trampled upon by the biases of other people, that you think about the fact that you're no different than they are.

Let's get back and topic and work under the (incorrect and truly absurd) assumption that there's something inherently immoral about homosexuality.  Given that you agree (per your last post) that some cultures which have inspired RPG fantasy cultures, let's think through a couple other commonalities between historic human cultures and many RPG fantasy cultures, which seem immoral or at least unenlightened in our modern world:

1. Fighting and slaughtering animals of in an Arena for the entertainment of the crowd
2. Price fixing between all Shops/Guilds in a region
3. Vigilante justice where you find anyone who badly wrongs you, duel/fight them, and try to kill them
4. Absolute monarchy without any representative bodies

All four of these throwbacks to historic cultures - odious as they may be in today's society - make for great gameplay mechanics, story hooks, and/or setting elements in RPGs.  So with this in mind, even if you believe homosexual relationships are somehow immoral, wouldn't you still agree that they could possibly make for an interesting character element?  Wouldn't you agree that, disreputable as this character's sexual tendencies may be, that they could still lead to some interesting scenarios (Game of Thrones' Prince of Flowers) or explorations of their character (Persona 4's Kanji) in a game?

 

[AMGLime]

I'm fine with LGBT characters. Two of my favourite characters in Dragon Age: Inquisition is Dorian and Iron Bull, who become an amazingly cute couple if you don't pair up with either of them. For the rest of this post, I'll be talking about the LGB aspect as the T is just something I am completely blind to, and have never come across or met, with the closest interaction being, of course, another character in Inquisition.

I'm a big softy, I love romance, I think it's great. I feel like you can't tell a story that encompasses a world, without having romance somewhere, whether it's a war story, a fantasy story, science fiction, it doesn't matter. Romance is available everywhere. I mean, sure you can tell a story, but there's no reason to not have romance unless it absolutely takes stuff away from the original message. Writing a war story I like to have romance as a subtle thing, whether it;s between two childhood friends who have always loved each other but are too awkward to bring it to fruition. Or two princes from warring kingdoms, who happen to come across each other and feel the sparks between each other and are largely confused at how they feel until the war breaks out into all out chaos.

I have characters of every flavour in my games story, I just don't outright come out and shove it down your throat and make my game about a relationship like some Tales games do. It's not the leading man, it's a little bit of syrup with your ice cream. Mostly developed by talking to the characters, and doing side quests. Throughout the game, you'll see Joshua and Elizabeth's relationship grow, as they travel together, I find it's only natural. Now, the two princes, are NPCs, albeit important NPCs, you don't see them as much, and you'll see the little clues here and there about them, but unless you follow up on things you wouldn't know that they're two confused gay lovers kept apart by their nations. It's basically a Romeo and Juliette story, except Juliette is a Jack.

I went way off topic, but yes, I'm thrilled when I come across LGBT characters.

 

[LootHunter]

Given that you agree (per your last post) that some cultures which have inspired RPG fantasy cultures, let's think through a couple other commonalities between historic human cultures and many RPG fantasy cultures, which seem immoral or at least unenlightened in our modern world:

1. Fighting and slaughtering animals of in an Arena for the entertainment of the crowd
2. Price fixing between all Shops/Guilds in a region
3. Vigilante justice where you find anyone who badly wrongs you, duel/fight them, and try to kill them
4. Absolute monarchy without any representative bodies

All four of these throwbacks to historic cultures - odious as they may be in today's society - make for great gameplay mechanics, story hooks, and/or setting elements in RPGs.  So with this in mind, even if you believe homosexual relationships are somehow immoral, wouldn't you still agree that they could possibly make for an interesting character element?  Wouldn't you agree that, disreputable as this character's sexual tendencies may be, that they could still lead to some interesting scenarios (Game of Thrones' Prince of Flowers) or explorations of their character (Persona 4's Kanji) in a game?

But that's the thing! I totally agree with you. Gay charactes, if they are well written and their story is believable, can introduce interesting scenarios in game. And exploring those characters and scenarios can benefit games (or any other media for that matter) greatly.

What I am protesting against is selective morality, when (for example) homosexuality is considered moral and polyamory or beastiality are not. Of cause you can create a world where you have specific moral rules, but you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with these rules, or immediately assume your rules the way you expect.

Because most of these "LGBT in games" debate are essentially come down to the same situation. Some developers want the heterosexual audience to accept their gay (or bisexual) characters, because every sexual preference is not inherently unmoral. And at the same time they don't want accept other sexual preferences, because some sexual preferences are "tasteless and just wrong". Personally, I think that it's unfair.

First of all, shame on you for intentionally derailing the topic (which is about the presence of LGBT characters in games, not the morality of LGBT), as your entire response to my on-topic post.

And that's exactly, why it all is on topic. People complain about presence of LGBT characters in games not because of the presence itself, but because of how this presence is established and what message it sends.

If you put an openly gay character in Fallout world it wouldn't arouse exasperation. Because, hey, you can do  whatever you want in this world with unestablished morality, be it killing children, starring in porno or marrying someone your own gender. Same goes for Game of Thrones - as you said yourself, Knight of Flowers was gay and he was condemned for that as any gay in medieval setting should be. And that's logical.

However, if developer impose a moral code on his world and his characters, and this moral code states that man being a gay is good and being, for example, in love with two women is bad - he can't demand that people, who practice group sex (or just not gay), shouldn't be exasperated by that moral code. Especially if the only reason for this moral code is that developer is gay, who condemns polygamy.

 

[Brillenpinguin]

Personally, I think that it's unfair.

Of course you think it's unfair. I mean think of all those heterosexual characters that are oppressed or pushed aside from gay characters in media and real life! D:

Seriously though, this is still not the topic of this thread. You made your opinion on LGBTQ+ characters pretty clear so why do you still argue?

 

[Seacliff]

Here's my two cents. I'm not big on the LGBT thing, HOWEVER, whoever created a game containing such is free to do so. It's their world, their characters, they are free to do whatever they want with their characters relationships. It's fiction, so why should anyone argue even if they disagree with it?

Personally, I'd be more worried about stereotypes. Someone who isn't LGBT I feel would be more likely to create a character that falls into LGBT stereotypes. Chances are you might end up offending someone who is LGBT AND the people who are against it. I say this because I have high-functioning Autism here, and while I don't get angry at media that uses Autistic stereotypes like the Big Bang Theory show, I can perfectly understand someone who would.

BTW, I read nothing of the past five pages. So sorry if I said something that was already said.

 

[Wavelength]

But that's the thing! I totally agree with you. Gay charactes, if they are well written and their story is believable, can introduce interesting scenarios in game. And exploring those characters and scenarios can benefit games (or any other media for that matter) greatly.

What I am protesting against is selective morality...(cut for quote length)

Oh, well this is a pleasant surprise!  It seems I misunderstood what you were going for - I've often seen the "uncommon sexual practices" ("sexual deviance") line used to compare homosexuality with things like violent rape.  So I want to apologize to you for jumping to conclusions about you, even though I wish you'd been more clear... knowing this it wasn't fair of me to call you disgustingly closed-minded.  And thank you for not freaking out when I did so.

I agree with you that there's a need for consistency in the author's tone when they're addressing taboos.  It kind of bothers me, for example, when a game (or movie or anime or whatever) with a supposedly non-violent message show the "good guys" killing mooks and enjoying it, and not giving them their comeuppance.  Using this same kind of construction, I agree with you wholeheartedly that a game which promoted monogamous homosexual relationships while throwing shade at polyamorous heterosexual relationships would be hypocritical and uncomfortable (the reality is that these two elements of relationships cannot be compared one-to-one, but I think it's fair enough for the sake of this argument).

Now when we cross into something like portraying beastiality... it's a much grayer area for the reason that it's a non-consensual act.  I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical for someone to say that it's okay to have sex with any other human that consents but it's not okay to have sex with animals that have no way to consent  Is there room for beastiality to be portrayed in a video game or other form of story?  Almost certainly yes.  There's room in good storytelling for almost any sort of crime or taboo except where it inspires and rewards the most vitriloic types of hate.

But to add such a character property to their story, the work's creator should be aware of reasonable biases will have against characters who engage in such nearly-universal taboos.  It's probably far beyond the scope of this topic for me to argue that beastiality should or shouldn't be treated as this taboo (I'd be tempted to argue it's morally analogous to the slaughter of animals for leather/furs), but I guess it is interesting that such taboos are seen as so much more shocking and uncomfortable than others we commonly see in games (such as gleefully slaughtering "monsters" - read as "animals" - for fun... or even people in the case of some particuarly violent action games).  I try not to think about it too much!

Personally, I'd be more worried about stereotypes. Someone who isn't LGBT I feel would be more likely to create a character that falls into LGBT stereotypes. Chances are you might end up offending someone who is LGBT AND the people who are against it. I say this because I have high-functioning Autism here, and while I don't get angry at media that uses Autistic stereotypes like the Big Bang Theory show, I can perfectly understand someone who would.

I agree that stereotypes are one of those pitfalls you have to avoid - I've said this a couple times already but at the risk of being a broken record, it's super-important that you're really confident that you can write a character with a trait that you don't personally possess, especially when the trait is something that some people will identify with.

You can fall into the stereotypig trap, which is really bad, or you can err the other way and make the trait too "informed" (the author claims a character has a trait, but the audience never really sees it in the character).  Even good writer botch this.  In my opinion, JK Rowling did a pretty poor job depicting Albus Dumbledore as a gay character.  You would think there would be events in the story that would shine a bit of light on this (just as there were enough events to clearly depict most of the main characters as heterosexual), but the whole story went by (including a couple times where Dumbledore flirted with female professors) and then JKR just kind of said "by the way Dumbledore is gay".  I guess that's nice, considering that Dumbledore was such an awesome character and a good role model, but it really seemed like shoehorning.

By the way, Big Bang really frustrates me in the same sense you mentioned (which you seem to be able to let go better than I do) - the way that it sort of depicts Aspies as *******s who don't care about other peoples' feelings, which could not be further from the truth.

 

[LootHunter]

Of course you think it's unfair. I mean think of all those heterosexual characters that are oppressed or pushed aside from gay characters in media and real life! D:

You made your opinion on LGBTQ+ characters pretty clear so why do you still argue?

Since you are still complaining about how heterosexuals treat gay and at the same time think that it's normal to treat polyamory/beastial/what-a-heck-other-sexual-taste the same way - not clear enough.

Anyhow, I decided that in my game there will be a girl. And there will be a dragon (sentient, so to be clear). And when the game will be released (well, considering how slow the progress is, better say if will be released), you should be prepared that their relations will be very very close.

 

[Brillenpinguin]

Since you are still complaining about how heterosexuals treat gay and at the same time think that it's normal to treat polyamory/beastial/what-a-heck-other-sexual-taste the same way - not clear enough.

Anyhow, I decided that in my game there will be a girl. And there will be a dragon (sentient, so to be clear). And when the game will be released (well, considering how slow the progress is, better say if will be released), you should be prepared that their relations will be very very close.

But in reality, dragons don't exist. So in reality it's more of a problem when people have sex with animals then with other humans. 

And again, you are missing the point of the conversation. @Wavelength's entries to this are actually really nice.

 

[Column]

@LootHunter

The Breath of Fire games main characters were always either dragons in human form that formed relationships with other species (the Ninas usually, bird people of one kind of another) or only half dragon themselves, like in BoF2, where one parent was dragon and one was human. So yea, you make you dragon love. Sweet, sweet scaly love..

Any-ol-ways. To stay relatively on topic, I'll get back to the discussion on hand, but also delve into the point I think you may have been trying to make. LGBTs in games. Like I said in my earlier post, ok, no problem, as long as theyre not put in the game solely for the purpose of pushing an agenda or forcing their 'gayness' down your throat. But Loot's point, though not entirely 'on topic' is still in the general ball field of it. When you start talking about LGBT, any thing you try to apply to them could in one way or another be applied to any of 'sexual diviation' ,deviation meaning anything outside of the norm, the norm being the majority of people. The main chapter of my game shows interest in a girl almost a decade younger them himself. It's start out as one of those 'shes more like my little sister' relationship ships but it grows into a 'I want to spend the rest of my life with her' deals. I won't get too into the whole story or what not, but I have been criticized before about making my main character a 'pedophile'. But let's be realistic. Since it was mentioned how homosexuality was not only accepted, but sometimes even encouraged in older times, and how that should be reflected in games, or how there is a certain percentage of people who identify as being LGBT so there should be am equal number of like characters in games, let's not forget that there are other kinds of people out there that also don't receive 'proper' representation in games. 'In the old days' it was widely accepted, and again often encouraged, for young girls to be in sexual relationships.

I guess what it all boils down to.. lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, beast, necrp, pedo, or house plants loving.. unless the story is specifically about a character and theit sexual orientstion.. does it even matter? Does it make a difference if the hero of shiny kingdom likes dudes or not? Is the magen of a thousand spells any less powerful because he finds his pony to be attractive? I'm all about fairness and representstion, but st the same time, you have to ask yourself if what you're so busy trying to represent even matters, or if you're just doing something to do it for the sake of saying you did it.

You know what if like to see? Black people. There are no good default outfits or hairstyle or even really many fave parts to make a good, naturally looking person of color. Black people can be gay too, so this is still on topic. Where are all my black, gay, young animal loving main characters at?

 

[Wavelength]

I guess what it all boils down to.. lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, beast, necrp, pedo, or house plants loving.. unless the story is specifically about a character and theit sexual orientstion.. does it even matter? Does it make a difference if the hero of shiny kingdom likes dudes or not? Is the magen of a thousand spells any less powerful because he finds his pony to be attractive? I'm all about fairness and representstion, but st the same time, you have to ask yourself if what you're so busy trying to represent even matters, or if you're just doing something to do it for the sake of saying you did it.

This is one of the central questions we should be exploring in this topic!  I think you hit at the very heart of the issue of "minority representation" in games, but I think there's a third good alternative to that "question you ask yourself".  Sometimes a character trait can just work well, can just appear appropriate in the way you envision the character.  Sometimes it's not a zealous attempt to make a stand on an issue, and you're not trying to shoehorn (for example) a bisexual character into your game just so it has one, but one or more of the characters you've dreamt up in your game's plot just seems like they'd work better as a bisexual.  I think that's a fine reason to include one!  But if you've never met a bisexual and you don't have a good idea of what it means to be one and the views that someone of this sort might have toward gender, then it can be hard to write them well and you might be better off sticking to what you know.

You know what if like to see? Black people. There are no good default outfits or hairstyle or even really many fave parts to make a good, naturally looking person of color. Black people can be gay too, so this is still on topic. Where are all my black, gay, young animal loving main characters at?

Black, gay, and kinky?  Look no further than the one, the only, the awesome, the "freakiest freak", Brice Isyah.

 

[Aoi Ninami]

 'In the old days' it was widely accepted, and again often encouraged, for young girls to be in sexual relationships.

And today there is widespread prejudice against relationships with age gaps, even when both partners are adults. So there's another group of people who could do with more representation in games and other fiction.

 

[Oddball]

One way to do it is to casually mention it. Like some lady is talking and just happens to mention there ex-girlfriend.

Otherwise, make it backstory or something like a charecter was exiled from there village because they were gay/bi. But dont spend too much time on the plot point, else it distracts from the game

 

[Column]

@wavelength

I think one of the hard issues is finding the right balance either way. In today's pc laden society we often forget that someone at some point is going to be offended by something. I've seen a lot of times where a story or game is criticized because it didn't have any of this kind of character or that kind of character. Like, none of the playable chapters in my game are homo, bi, or trans. They're all straight cis white privileged (well one character is quarter asian) and middle aged. It's not because I don't respect gays or trans or -kin or blacks or jews or any particular group or minority.. it's just that there aren't any in my game. At the same time, it's just as bad to see a character thrown into a story just so the creator can say 'oh look, there's an x character in my game, so im totally down with that group'. Reprisentation for the sake of it isn't necessarily good, because like you mentioned, you have to worry about stereotyping, or people trying to play up a vulture they might not fully understand. And then there is that stereotype problem. 'Gay people aren't like-' You know what? I've met some homosexual men you'd never have guessed were, but at the same time, I have met several that fit the 'stereotypical' gay persona to the t. Just yesterday at our store, we had a man who comes from new Orleans stop by, and he's as gay as a threw dollar bill, as they say. Now don't get me wrong, he's the nicest, most polite person you'd ever meet, but he's gay. Lisp talking, thigh hugging jeans, little tea cup god with a bow tie carrying gay. I have to roll my eyes when I hear people talking about stereotype this or stereotype that, when by saying that pepole of whatever group never fall into that catagory, they're really stereotyping them in their own way.

And today there is widespread prejudice against relationships with age gaps, even when both partners are adults. So there's another group of people who could do with more representation in games and other fiction.

One of my best friends growing ups parents were 12 years apart. The characters in my story I referred to met at 20 and 12 respectively, but it was more of a her family took him in and she looked up to him like a big brother and he regarded her as a little sister deal. It was until she was around 16/17 that he stepped back and said 'no, there's really more to this'. And trust me, I caught a lot of flack over that. I mean, I wouldn't go as far as to say I support pedophilia, or that I think twelve and thirteen year old girls should be dating guys in their twenties, but in this particular instance it was a critical point in the story's nerrative.

Tl/Dr

Doing something just to say you did it is silly. Saying someone is hateful just because they happened not to include any minority is silly. Thinking certain people do or don't fit into stereotypes just because you don't like them is silly. We're all silly.

 

[JosephSeraph]

A person very close to me's stepfather is 2 years older than her... and 23 years younger than her mother. (granted, he'd lied to her mother that he was older.)

We all accept it very normally though. she was shocked and I was kinda pissed when we found out he's 7 yrs younger than what he said but welp, they're happy, so there's that.

By the way a dragon is a lot closer to a person than it is to a defenseless puppy.

Aren't dragons supposed to bear thousands of years of knowledge? In any case this topic is developing interestingly.