How do you feel about LGBT characters in games?

[SLEEP]

What statement is that? Is it homophobic to not include LGBT characters? If so then I can must say I disagree. I also disagree on the merit of not being into post-modernism, but that's a different kettle of fish.

what statement is that: not including LGBT+ characters is the statement you've created a game world full of straights only. "in my jRPG, in all my cast of PC's and important NPC's (and minor NPC's) theres no homo" to put it in a reductive way. You make up your own mind if you think its homophobic or not, i dont care to argue those semantics. But its deffo an implicit political statement right there.

you can't avoid a political message with romance, because romance is so politicized... the message doesn't have to have a narrative focus, you don't need to preach it or anything cringey like that, but you're unavoidably gonna have an implicit political message with your romances so make it a good one.   

 

[trouble time]

what statement is that: not including LGBT+ characters is the statement you've created a game world full of straights only. "in my jRPG, in all my cast of PC's and important NPC's (and minor NPC's) theres no homo" to put it in a reductive way. You make up your own mind if you think its homophobic or not, i dont care to argue those semantics. But its deffo an implicit political statement right there.

you can't avoid a political message with romance, because romance is so politicized... the message doesn't have to have a narrative focus, you don't need to preach it or anything cringey like that, but you're unavoidably gonna have an implicit political message with your romances so make it a good one.   

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, because as I mentioned, I am not a post-modernist.

 

[SLEEP]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, because as I mentioned, I am not a post-modernist.

idk what post modernism has to do with this, im just talking implicit politics. shrug. but ok w/e

im sounded a bit strong in my past posts, i guess what im trying to highlight is that... a lot of peeps seem 2 think LBGT+ things = political minefield, whereas straight = no politics this is apolitical, i just disagree with that thinking and think its all politics baby

 

[trouble time]

idk what post modernism has to do with this, im just talking implicit politics. shrug. but ok w/e

im sounded a bit strong in my past posts, i guess what im trying to highlight is that... a lot of peeps seem 2 think LBGT+ things = political minefield, whereas straight = no politics this is apolitical, i just disagree with that thinking and think its all politics baby

The idea of an implicit message is a post-modernist critique (or at the very least it's ingrained in post-modernism), especially since you mentioned a developer putting a message in on "accident". Essentially the idea that the interperetation of a work is also the fault of the creator is post-modernist (in this case saying a game is political rather than you interpreted it at political.) This actually means that what you're argueing against would count as a post-modernist crituqe as well since it's people interpreting something apolitical and saying that means it is apolitical because they interpret it that way. Death of the Author is pretty much the core of post-modern critique but it also tends to go along with holding the author resposible for any interpretation someone may have.

I don't interpret either LGBT or straight relationships as political myself unless the game was explicitly political.

Also I don't think that you've really been rude or anything.

 

[BigToastie]

To me of course there should be, if it can be incorporated and goes with the game.

There's no reason to avoid putting them in, it'll also add a bit more flavour to some characters.

All I asks is don't just blatantly put in text "oh yes, I'm gay".

For instance in a village you could have a guy who just simply asks "go speak to my husband".

 

[Column]

what statement is that: not including LGBT+ characters is the statement you've created a game world full of straights only. "in my jRPG, in all my cast of PC's and important NPC's (and minor NPC's) theres no homo" to put it in a reductive way. You make up your own mind if you think its homophobic or not, i dont care to argue those semantics. But its deffo an implicit political statement right there.

you can't avoid a political message with romance, because romance is so politicized... the message doesn't have to have a narrative focus, you don't need to preach it or anything cringey like that, but you're unavoidably gonna have an implicit political message with your romances so make it a good one.   

I'm just trying to make sure I understand this correctly, but are you saying that by not including any LGBT characters into you're game, you're inheritantly homophobic? But if you do include them, but they're "stereotypical", you shouldn't include any at all? So, basically, it's "you have to make characters that represent a certain group or its offensive, and they have to represent them a certain way or its offensive". This is why so many people just shake their heads at the whole subject. Becsuse it feels like, to most people on the hedero side of the fence, that too many people are TRYING to be offended. All the main character in my story are based after people I knew in real life. None of them happened to be gay, and that has nothing to do with me or how I feel or what I think. So the characters based off of them also will not be gay. As far as the characters from the series I'm basing my project on, they're were a few characters of the homosex variety, but they were all quite "stereotype"ish. The item shop dealers in particular were exuberantly flamboyant in their expression of their lifestyle. And the one character, Joachim, was the typical anime-style big bodied muscular wrestling right leather wearing not openly homo but obvious tendencies character. I didn't have a problem with either of these examples of characters in my game. They were what they were, and that was fine. But putting a character in your game just to say you have them there, be it a certain sexual orientation, or race, or gender ("there aren't enough women in gam-" yes there are, you're just playing the wrong games) is exactly pandering.

I'm not against LGBT characters. I'm against people feeling pressured to make a character a certain way just so they don't offend anyone. I'm against people bullying other people by calling them -phobic just because they didn't make a character a way someone wanted them to. "Bullying" goes both ways.

 

[Cryranos]

"straight = default" is a political statement.

too many people are TRYING to be offended. 

Like I said in my previous post, nobody gives two ****s if you choose not to represent them. Just don't pretend that omission is neutrality. Omission of underrepresented minorities from art, passive an act it may be, is still an act that maintains that under-representation. Just own up to it instead of getting defensive. If you don't feel comfortable writing gender/sexual minorities in a realistic way, that's fine. If your game setting has a history similar to Western Civilization's insofar as LGBT issues are involved, you've already got an even better excuse.

Of course, I'd argue that there are even more people TRYING to be offended when people who have traditionally been underrepresented in mass culture start demanding representation. 

 

you're just playing the wrong games

While this is a true statement, that there are already plenty of games starring interesting female characters, just as there are games starring interesting queers and interesting people of color, it entirely misses the point, that people of these groups are hungry for MORE. Telling minorities underrepresented groups (women are a slim MAJORITY of many populations, and thus not a minority in the literal sense) that they should be happy with what they have instead of clamoring for better is paternalistic.

 

[Column]

Straight = Default because well over 90% of the people in the country I live in are straight. Cryranos, you seem like a very angry person. We're all having a nice, well behaved discussion about a sensitive subject, maybe you should take it down a notch or two. You say no one cares if I (and I suppose you mean everyone in general) decides not to make certain kinds of characters in my game, but then go off on a tangent about how choosing to do so is some form of concious offense. "Passive as it may be" makes it sound like not having a "minority" character is an intentionally aggressive act towards whatever group of people feel like they're not being represented. If I draw a picture, I'm not required to use every color in the pallet, and if I choose not to, because there isn't anything in my picture that requires that color, it's not bad or offensive, nor does it mean I have any ill feelings regarding that color, it just means I didn't need it in my painting. There's a difference between if someone says "I'll never make x kind of character in my game for x reason" and just not having a gay, trans, black, hispanic, muslim, bhudist, otherkin, snowflake, disabled, or any other "unrepresented minority". Are you trying to imply that any form of art, writen, painted, musical or other, that doesn't pretain to every racial, sexual and religious culture is inherently offensive? Again. Omitting any type of person from your story becsuse you don't like something about that "type" of person is wrong. But not having someone in your story doesn't mean it's automatically because you don't like that "type" of person, and to assume so is just as biased snd ignorant as you're trying to make it sound like they are. You've made it quite clear that this is a important topic to you, but addressing it in the manner in which you're addressing it only seems to be proving the point that I was trying to make, that some people go out of there way to be mad when there aren't even any mads to be had. Chill.

 

[Mama_B]

"Like I said in my previous post, nobody gives two ****s if you choose not to represent them. Just don't pretend that omission is neutrality. Omission of underrepresented minorities from art, passive an act it may be, is still an act that maintains that under-representation. Just own up to it instead of getting defensive. If you don't feel comfortable writing gender/sexual minorities in a realistic way, that's fine. If your game setting has a history similar to Western Civilization's insofar as LGBT issues are involved, you've already got an even better excuse.
Of course, I'd argue that there are even more people TRYING to be offended when people who have traditionally been underrepresented in mass culture start demanding representation."

"Under-representation"?  That would imply that EVERY game makes a political statement no matter what character design is involved. 

I'm going to have to disagree with this.  As a writer, I don't let people dictate to me what my characters are like.  My characters develop in the pre-writing and, yes, that includes their sexual orientation.  I'm not a political artist.  I couldn't give a flying fornication about politics unless it's story-related.

I don't agree with anyone "demanding representation."  That's like saying "I'm going to force you to respect me."  I don't care what group or organization it is.  If you're going to demand me to represent you, well, cough up some cash or earn my respect as a person the old fashioned way.  If you choose to do neither, then I'm sorry but I don't feed entitled behavior.

As an artist, I'm offended by the blanket statement you've given about this notion that not representing a group is a slight against them - however unintentional it may be.  You don't see a lot of homeless in the cities in games, so is it an offense to them as well?  They actually NEED representation.

Put simply: No one is entitled to representation in any medium.  If the artist chooses to give it to them, so be it.  If the artist is paid to give it to them, more power to the artist.  But don't say that not doing it is a political statement.

(And before any high horses get involved, understand that I fall under the LBGTQ banner myself.  I don't let that identify me because I'm a PERSON first.  My orientation is my business and I don't demand anyone to represent me.)

 

[Cryranos]

Straight = Default because well over 90% of the people in the country I live in are straight.

Cool story. That doesn't make it not a political position. Well over half of the people in the country where I live are white, but nobody (I hope) would argue that white = default is not a political position.

Are you trying to imply that any form of art, writen, painted, musical or other, that doesn't pretain to every racial, sexual and religious culture is inherently offensive? 

I explicitly remember using half of my last post to say that that isn't the case.

But not having someone in your story doesn't mean it's automatically because you don't like that "type" of person, and to assume so is just as biased snd ignorant as you're trying to make it sound like they are. 

I didn't say that. All I said is that you can't pretend that you don't participate in a culture that people feel erased by (because you do).

...but addressing it in the manner in which you're addressing it only seems to be proving the point that I was trying to make, that some people go out of there way to be mad when there aren't even any mads to be had. Chill.

The only thing that makes me even close to mad (I'd call it 'miffed', really) is that you're attributing anger to people who are trying to argue a position that you disagree with.

That would imply that EVERY game makes a political statement no matter what character design is involved. 

According to the traditions of artistic/literary criticism that I subscribe to, yes, all art that may reflect any kind of view of the world on the part of the author is political. Even if you are capable of making art that is completely devoid of any influence from the way you see the world, those who consume your art also reflect their worldview on it, and may attribute their views to your art. Death-of-the-author stuff that you may not subscribe to, maybe, but then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As an artist, I'm offended by the blanket statement you've given about this notion that not representing a group is a slight against them - however unintentional it may be. 

I think my blanket statement is more along the lines of "You can't say that you're not participating in a culture that passively erases minorities when you create art that reflects the biases of society," not "You're insulting minorities by not making games about them." That would be awfully hypocritical of me to say such a thing, considering my work does not meet any standard of universal inclusivity. At least I'm willing to admit that there's a problem and that I'm not contributing to solving it (and no, I don't think that arguing about it counts, either).

(And before any high horses get involved, understand that I fall under the LBGTQ banner myself.  I don't let that identify me because I'm a PERSON first.  My orientation is my business and I don't demand anyone to represent me.)

Good for you. Do you want a *not one of those queers* award?

---

EDIT: I started thinking about the state of politics to realize that there is a significant portion of the population that probably does, indeed, believe that "white = default," and that that should be an uncontroversial statement.

 

[Mama_B]

 You and I will have to agree to disagree.

Good for you. Do you want a *not one of those queers* award?

A not-very-thinly-veiled insult means that you have too much emotional investment in this topic.  When you insult the other members of a discussion, it's time for you to bow out of said discussion and regain your perspective.  Get down off your high horse and take a few minutes to smell the flowers or look at the sunset.

Take care, Cryranos.  Have a safe and happy holiday weekend.

 

[Column]

For the record, I don't think Mama B is one of "those" queers, but I find it interesting the Cry would try to use a phrase like that, as if he himself is stereotyping certain LGBT people a certain way. Hm. Another fine point, one that I myself hinted at earlier, is that you need to relax Crynal. Even if you're right in a discussion, and I'm not saying you are or arent, but either way it doesn't matter if you make yourself out to be a fool. Your profile states that you were on the LGBT board in your school and that you took all those politics classes, so you should know the value of rationale over letting your emotions dictate your argument. If you find yourself too involved in the topic, take a step back. Better to remain silent for a moment then to make yourself and those you represent look bad.

AS PER THE THREAD TOPICA, ahem. I find the whole concept of equal representation of minorities in media to be a bit.. confusing. I mean, what's the end goal here? What is equality, what is "equal representation"? When you take a group that makes up as small a minority as LGBT, which makes up only a few percent of people (I've seen different things saying anywhere between 2 and 5 percent of people identifying SD some form of LGBT), what is your idea of "equal representstion"? Do you want to see 5% of characters, lead or otherwise, as gay? Does every game HAVE to include some form of LGBT? And I mean, come on, LGBT itself is a misleading term, because there is quite a bit of different just between lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transvestites. Does a homosexual man in a game count and a representstion of the trans community? Does a bisexuals woman count towards the homosexual male community? And I have to ask again, really, what does a persons, real or fictional, sexuality matter? I have never known any ever who said "I won't play x game because they main character isn't a white, male, heterosexual young adult (which I would wager is in fact the "default" main characer profile throughout the history of videogames)". If your game is about saving the world, killing monsters, fighting robots and such, I don't think who likes dick and who doesn't is all that important. If your game is a visual novel or a dating sim, then as the players relationships ARE the core of the game then yea, it makes a big deal. But not every characters sexual preference needs to be pointed out. Pick a random game, take all the main characters, and tell me their sexual preferences. Halo, just because I finally played halo 4 not too long ago. Tell me all the sexual preferences of every named characer in that series. And if you can do thay, tell me.. did it matter? I think "representstion" itself is a silly concept. If I picked 1000 random people off the street and lined then all up, I doubt I'd be able to pick out the gays from the straights. Unless I lived in California. LGBT dont (normally) walk around with a big note over there head reading "I'M GAY", and the ones that DO usually fit thay NEGATIVE stereotype we're all so used to seeing. If I was a hero in a game, and I was saving the world from evil, and some people joined me, I wouldn't stop and be "whoa, wait, dudes or chicks? I need to know." And neither do most players.

And to be perfectly honest, I see plenty of LGBT representstion in games. I don't remember the last game I played thay had any form of "relationship" mechanic thay didn't include a homosex choice. I accidentally married a dude on Fable 2 because I didn't realise townsie could be gay. I sacrificed him to the Temple of Shadows, but that was because he was an uggo, not because he liked my hero's trouser snake. (I discrimate again ugly people when it comes to hooking up, yes.)

At the end of the day "equal reprisentation" of a "minority" is a very VERY tricky thing. Do you want the total percentage of identifying characters to meet your standard, or does equal mean for every goose a gander, or does it just mean drop in a "token" character just to keep the minority sated?

 

[LootHunter]

Question: What do you think about Mario and Zelda game series?

Mario rescues pirncess Peach and Link rescues pirncess Zelda. Do those games apolitical or they have a pro-straight political message?

 

[Brillenpinguin]

Well, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays first of all everyone...

@Loot: Those franchises are years old and from a time where gay activism in media was still young. Not to mention that Japan is still more icky when it comes to gay representation because of their very tradition-centered culture. But still over the years both francises established characters that can be interpreted as queer (Birdo, Tingle ect.)

I also wanna say that what Column wrote has hand and tail in my book. Well said!

 

[byronclaude]

The reality is, while this post was originally geared toward a gaming concept...  it stirs up what is a very political concept.  Many sides mentioned in this post have great merit (and yes, a few posts also contain a little bit of ignorance) but at the end of the day, I think it is going to be up to each developer to figure out how, if they want to include LGBT characters in there game, to do it in a way that makes themselves comfortable with the game first, and the players second.

In time, it is my hope that terms like: Gay, Bi, Straight, Curious etc. will begin to lose importance.  Sexuality is different from one person to another...  not just one group to another.

I think the healthiest thing we as a species can do is not only embrace our own sexuality...  but also the sexuality of others... and then move on.  

To stay mired in this argument isn't doing anything for society or our games on any evolutionary scale.

Until we can reach that point:

    @"Gay" People - You will get better player response with a subtle approach.  It's just where we are in evolution right now...  the LGBT community has had a lot of gains... and while it is important to reach for the stars...  it is also important to stop once in a while and be thankful for example that we can even have this discussion today.

    @"Straight" People - Please avoid using the: "Just don't be all in our face about it" routine.  Straight love has been all in the face of the LGBT community forever.  Just something to think about.

For all you Santa-Clause lovers out there:  Merry Christmas 2015.  I'm spending the later part of mine with the boyfriend 

 

[Helladen]

If you want to make a gay character in your game simply make them like any relationship you would for being straight. Don't focus on it really, just have moments where they show affections.

 

[JosephSeraph]

cryanos basically just responded to someone else saying they don't want politics in their games (as if LGBT characters were inherently political) and drawing from that, one can really say that any creative expression is political yes. Making a game with no white people, with no black people, with no whatever well yeah that is a politic statement yeah. But w/e? There are not any "apolitical" artists or people, even. And I say that as a very politically abstrained person (I
 really hardly get into lgbt / social justice stuff and i don't even actually vote, i just null my vote) but I recognize my stance has... some.... political value which i really don't care or pay attention to or w/e. XD

So instead of trying to see politics where there the author didn't directly intend (be it really whatever it is) i think it'd be nicer if we just appreciated whatever we do. Like, we make games, awesome ones at that. Welp. let's enjoy that.

Also I just woke up and i'm tremendously sick so this might not makw any sense and aaaaaaaaa w/e

 

[Clangeddin]

If you want to make a gay character in your game simply make them like any relationship you would for being straight. Don't focus on it really, just have moments where they show affections.

If you want to make straight character in your game simply make them like any relationship you would for being gay. Don't focus on it really, just have moments where they show affections.

And just like that we butchered Xenogears.

 

[Helladen]

If you want to make straight character in your game simply make them like any relationship you would for being gay. Don't focus on it really, just have moments where they show affections.

And just like that we butchered Xenogears.

Well it depends on the game really. Do you focus on the gay audience or the general audience. If you focus too much on the gay relationship then you may push away your straight players. I for one do not like to see gay moments in games, as long as it is minimal then it is okay by me. But if it goes into sex or anything deep, then I am grossed out by it. I also don't like to see sexual conduct of straight people usually, but it is much easier to consume than gay moments.

That's a lot of reason why game developers do not have a main gay lead usually. There has not really been a prominent gay character in a mainstream video game that I have yet seen do extremely well that I can recall.

 

[byronclaude]

That's a lot of reason why game developers do not have a main gay lead usually. There has not really been a prominent gay character in a mainstream video game that I have yet seen do extremely well that I can recall.

Give it time    Loved character are loved not for their sexuality, but for their symbolism...   an alter-ego within us that in some way emanates a charisma or a quality we find heroic, adorable, or worthy of honor.

With the world becoming so open-minded...  it is just a matter of time before someone develops a WORTHY lgbt hero that makes it mainstream.  (That is going to be insane.)

My current project has a subtle reference between 2 minor characters...   ...and it is so subtle that if you are not paying close attention, you will not catch it (intentional).  But in a future project, I plan to make my own humble attempt at an lgbt main-char.  (Point is...  If I am contemplating it, you can bet that others are as well).

I recommend omitting acts of sex entirely.  If you are introducing sex... you are choosing a different kind of guideline...  one that entails catering to straight players, or catering to gay players (bi-players... etc).  Once sex acts become involved, the status quo no longer matters...  it becomes an erotic portrayal according to the dev's vision (nothing less and nothing more).