How do you manage Magi as general?

[fireflyege]

@M.I.A. That is actually a great idea, but is there a plugin that can do that?

 

[lianderson]

Yeah, that´s a cool spell. It´s definitely unique.

As for the topic, how do I manage magi in general? I suppose the same as everyone else, except I use a 10% natural mana regen. I also use cooldowns for everything and warmups for supers like meteor.

 

[Kes]

@fireflyege As I've mentioned to you before, 'Game Mechanics Design' is not about individual projects. Just because a suggestion does not fit your particular game is not a sufficient reason to dismiss it, and may, at times, only serve to shut down an aspect of the discussion which other Members might find helpful. Please leave the conversation more open-ended.

 

[fireflyege]

@lianderson does your mage need any other mana regen sources other than his / her innate mana regen?

@Kes I am not dismissing anything. I am trying to grasp every piece of advice people give me, I do not know why you had the impression of me dismissing things because I am actually eagerly waiting for more ways that can give me an inspiration to create a mage.

 

[Kes]

In one of recent replies to M.I.A., you say that you can't consider a particular idea because it doesn't fit your specific vision of a character. You then say that you look forward to people perfecting that character.

My point is that this section of the forum is not for specific games - it is meant to be open-ended, broad in its approach, and yet you keep on turning everything back to your individual needs, instead of allowing the conversation to develop where it will, in ways that - while they might not be of relevance to your game - could be very helpful for someone else.

If this were a one-off, it wouldn't matter so much, but this has happened in several threads now.

 

[M.I.A.]

@fireflyege Yes, it's ... MrTsSimpleSkillLeveling Plug-in.

For that particular skill example I gave you, I have 4 skills and 3 States.
Skill 1 applies State X.. with the use of the plug in, I have it set to 1 use of this skill levels it up to Skill 2 and removes Skill 1.
and so on..

I then have a Parallel Process running after battle that does a condition check that if the Actor knows Skill 2, 3, or 4, it removes that skill and then they learn Skill 1. This is what "resets" the skill outside of battle.

 

[lianderson]

@fireflyege Yeah, if they want to use expensive spells consistently, they´ll have to either increase their mana, mana regen rate, healing received, use certain skills, or use mana potions. (which also double as a cure to silence)

Mana regen allows the designer to increase mana costs and/lower player mana to help create more dynamic battle choices. Because in most RPGs, especially traditional JRPGs, spells are so cheap that mana/mp/whatever is treated as nothing more than an after thought.

 

[fireflyege]

@lianderson actually I think traditional RPG have the problem that the mana costs are either too low or too high. I also hate that thing to be honest. That is why forcing mana management rather than buying a bunch of mana potions is a thing I like in any game. To be honest, I do not think mana should be limited as most games do because just like stamina it is a thing which can be regenerated quickly. That is why I hate fantasy role playing games that forces you to rest and meditate for all day for enough mana to cast two or three spells.

@M.I.A. it sounds rather complex. I have a feeling you can do it without the plugin with invisible states that make you forget skill X and learn skill Y and you can make skill X apply that state to the user and making all those states get removed after the battle ends resets the rotation as well.

 

[lianderson]

I didn't talk about traditional RPGs, I just talked about RPGs in general with an emphasis on traditional JRPGs.

DnD inspired games usually have high mana costs, which, based on their capability, may or may not be a bad thing.

 

[M.I.A.]

@fireflyege , I never said it was simple. I always prefer to Event/Variable/Switch to accomplish most things, but they can't always accomplish what you're aiming to accomplish.

I've actually tried it in ways similar to your suggestion already. There were some issues with states/learn skills and removing the skills/replacing the skills upon use.. even with Common Event call triggers. Complexity on my side in trade for simplicity on the player side is A-Ok with me.

-MIA

 

[fireflyege]

@lianderson ok maybe a meteor shower once in a week may not be a bad idea since it is actually cataclysmic but if a game forces me to use 3 simple fireballs and call it a day then that game is rubbish to me. Of course you are not supposed to cast spells everytime you feel like it but limiting magic so severely that it is far from useful, then it is something wrong. I wish some GM's understood that fact. Oh well, that was a lot of hate, wasn't it?

@M.I.A. you can actually do that without common event calls. Say, your skills are Fire-X, Fire-Y, Fire-Z and those are meant to be the XYZ combo.

-First, do NOT make your character learn Y or Z, but make them learn X.

-Apply an invisible X state, which makes the player forget X and learn Y instead. Make Fire-X apply the X state to the caster.

-Apply an invisible Y state, which makes the player forget X and Y but learn Z instead. Make Fire-Y remove the X state from the caster but apply the Y state instead.

-Make Fire-Z remove both X and Y states from the caster.

 

[M.I.A.]

@fireflyege , Yes, your method gets really close to accomplishing the affects I have described, however, states and Learn/Forget attributes do not work in all cases and all scenarios. Believe me. There are other aspects of my database & plugin's that you aren't aware of. I wouldn't bother using a plugin when it's something that can be accomplished within the system itself. Also, you forgot that part where the skill resets to X after each battle.

I appreciate your trying to offer an alternative though!
-MIA

 

[fireflyege]

@M.I.A. ah yes.

-Make the X and Y states get ''removed after battle'' and it resets the combo after the battle ends.

If you have an other way to do that, it is cool though.

 

[M.I.A.]

@fireflyege Except that removing those skills doesn't "re-Learn" the original X skill back into the actors Skills.

Skill W/X/Y/Z
This skill is W after use forgets W and learns X. After X is used, forget X and learn Y. After Y is used, forget Y and learn Z. After Z is used, forget Z and learn X.

After battle, conditional branch is checked that is XY or Z are learned, forget XY or Z, learn W.

What I am saying, is I understand the method you are explaining, but I am also saying that it does not work in ALL cases and ALL scenarios (as I have learned through Play testing) in my project. So, I use that plugin, specifically, to ensure it executes as expected.

The purpose of me showcasing this particular skill was because your OP was inquiring how to make mages interesting. I wasn't posting to seek critique of, or execution for, that skill. It was an idea I had, that I shared, to give insight on how something such as a skill can be implemented to help make mages more interesting.

Good luck with your mage!
-MIA

 

[fireflyege]

@M.I.A. oh I see now. ^^ I made my mage quite interesting at my window. Without you all I could not manage to do that. But I want the thread to go on since everyone can find inspiration, I wanted this to solve my individual needs but also a general thread about the interesting aspects a mage can have.

 

[Kes]

@M.I.A. and @fireflyege I'd just like to remind you both that 'Games Mechanics Design' is meant to look at aspects of game play at a more conceptual level. Questions of implementation belong in the appropriate Support forum. Unless, of course, you want to continue your particular discussion on these details via pm.

 

[fireflyege]

@Kes we see, and the discussion about implementation has already finished. Thank you for your concern, and your early warning about the issue. We will certainly keep that in mind for our future discussions in this thread.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Because in most RPGs, especially traditional JRPGs, spells are so cheap that mana/mp/whatever is treated as nothing more than an after thought.

I usually find it to be the other way around. Mind, I think it's an over-reliance on wanting to spend MP on healing versus killing and forgetting that MP heal items exist.

but if a game forces me to use 3 simple fireballs and call it a day then that game is rubbish to me. Of course you are not supposed to cast spells everytime you feel like it but limiting magic so severely that it is far from useful, then it is something wrong. I wish some GM's understood that fact.

This is an aside, but yeah, I stopped DnD long ago and turned over to systems where you can have spells without MP. On that note, I usually give my mages some way to use magic without MP so they have something similar to Attack but for magic.

 

[fireflyege]

@kirbwarrior I am also working on my fantasy roleplaying world for a long time. I have this strange system where all classes have their own resource and their own ways to manage them. For example the Mage has ways to restore mana without resting for like 8 hours. Psychics and Priests are more interesting in that regard. Psychics generate Stress with their abilities and can manage it with its abilities just fine but the real thing is you must also manage your stress, and your roleplay will affect that. As a psychic you cannot be cool and collected all the time, for example if you are torturing the psychic it is quite likely he will generate a lot of stress is a ticking bomb at that point. The Priest is more interesting because it uses faith for its spells, and most of your spells do not take power from your actions but instead takes power from how hard you believe.

Quite basically I find mana quite uninteractive. The players are just asking themselves ''Do I have the mana for it?'' and that is wrong because the answer is always engage if you have the mana and do not if you don't. The idea in Psychic and Priest is controlling the mentality for it to work. Psychic's whole thing is entering other minds, so he must have a stable mind himself. The Priest is also like the same, you must put faith on something, even yourself. You can be an atheist priest if you like, but you must put your faith in something and the effects of your abilities will reflect that thing you put all your faith into.

I talked a lot, and probably left the mage subject, but I will keep it because it can give ideas about what to use MP for and for magi it is an important thing and mana is not the only thing which you can draw power, it depends on what type of magic you are using really. Even if you are using mana people should not treat it like you are a battery which empties itself for the sake of just being competent for like 2 minutes even in fantasy games, so doing this on a RPG game is not really wise.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Even if you are using mana people should not treat it like you are a battery which empties itself for the sake of just being competent for like 2 minutes

This. Mana should be for going "extra", not for merely playing your character. If fighters don't use mana to basic attack, why should a mage?

I totally forgot. Four Heroes of Light has an AP system where every action (other than guarding) costs AP but you regenerate 1 AP per turn (and attacks cost 1 AP). AP is then planned ahead for, but you never truly 'run out'.

I am also working on my fantasy roleplaying world for a long time.

I like the work you put into it. It sounds like something that could be a lot of fun.