How important is it to include DRM?

[SomaelCK]

How important is it to have DRM in your commercial game? And does it effect the sale, to have DRM or not.
My game developer friend said that having DRM on small scale games, is not really important but he is andriod/iOS game developer. I want to hear solid opinions from veteran RM users.


 

 

[Helladen]

DRM on small games is a waste of effort. I personally am against DRM and preventing Piracy. A lot of times, people don't have money to buy a product, so they get a copy of it from someone else, in reality, it is really like borrowing a game from someone.

1. DRM harms customer loyalty and freedom. For example, I bought Diablo II and the DRM regulations actually prevented it from being played on more than one computer at a time. Companies tend to restrict it too much that it hurts sales instead of helping. Additionally, if you try to regulate something too much it makes the customer feel like you don't trust them enough not to steal it.
2. Piracy is free advertising. If you make a good product that is worth paying for, people will support you even if they can get it for free. Of course there are always people who will never pay a dime for it, but they may support you in other ways you would of never imagined. People need to stop fighting over profits and more toward the greater good of humanity.
3. Instead of fighting against Piracy using DRM, use it to your advantage. For example, if you can't make profits from people by selling them something, find other ways to survive by making your product more free and accessible. Additionally, services like Spotify and Pandora using advertising to generate revenue has made the music industry a much better place for everyone.

 

[22pepperjack]

@Seth Jones - Amen

 

[SomaelCK]

DRM on small games is a waste of effort. I personally am against DRM and preventing Piracy. A lot of times, people don't have money to buy a product, so they get a copy of it from someone else, in reality, it is really like borrowing a game from someone.

1. DRM harms customer loyalty and freedom. For example, I bought Diablo II and the DRM regulations actually prevented it from being played on more than one computer at a time. Companies tend to restrict it too much that it hurts sales instead of helping. Additionally, if you try to regulate something too much it makes the customer feel like you don't trust them enough not to steal it.
2. Piracy is free advertising. If you make a good product that is worth paying for, people will support you even if they can get it for free. Of course there are always people who will never pay a dime for it, but they may support you in other ways you would of never imagined. People need to stop fighting over profits and more toward the greater good of humanity.
3. Instead of fighting against Piracy using DRM, use it to your advantage. For example, if you can't make profits from people by selling them something, find other ways to survive by making your product more free and accessible. Additionally, services like Spotify and Pandora using advertising to generate revenue has made the music industry a much better place for everyone.

Exactly what my friend said . Thanks. Now I have clear idea of it .

 

[djDarkX]

The thing about DRM, Seth, is that with that mind set a company that is small and creates a great program or game could easily be shut down and the program or game would no longer be supported or updated if said piracy happened.  There is two sides to every coin and simply saying "it won't hurt them" is pretty naive.  You've pretty much just told the poster "If the game is small, don't bother.  Oh, you're gonna sell it?  Well, don't protect it so people can give it away for free and keep you from making money."  I'd have to say, that's a pretty backhanded statement.

Oh and the part about ads, you do realize that you can't fill an RM game with ads like you can a phone app, right?  No monetary support.  While I agree that other alternatives to the accessibility of games and programs should be invented since not everyone can afford them, straight out piracy should not be one that is suggested.  Plus, think about that for a sec.  Imagine Enterbrain didn't include the DRM they currently have.  It'd be so easy for people to pirate XP/VX/Ace like they did with 2000/2003.  If the people making these illegal translations hadn't stopped to give support for the official program, they'd still be pirating the programs and we'd never have them or worst case scenario, RM would have never reached Ace since they may have just stopped making RM programs altogether if they knew everyone was just going to pirate it.

If handled properly, DRM can help a small company grow and have better alternatives to accessibility.  Denying them sales is just wrong.  You're telling them "You don't deserve my money".  If that's the case, I'd love to see you say that to the dev team currently working on "You Are Not The Hero".

 

[Helladen]

I wasn't suggesting to put ads in a RM game nor suggesting to not sell it.

RPG Maker wouldn't of survived if it hadn't been for Piracy. There wasn't even any public relations until VX ACE.

Companies can survive without DRM. You can crack RM compiled games, too. Nothing is safe, nor worth protecting without a server infrastructure. DRM is almost worthless unless you put it all on the Cloud. Because the people who do not know about Piracy or not in their moral compass, would buy it as long as it told them they had to. Other people would do everything they could to get it for free. You will never get these people to pay money for the most part, because they will wait until it is cracked. If it never gets cracked, it isn't great software.

 

[djDarkX]

Wouldn't have survived without piracy?  I think you forget that this is the internet.  Anything that is anything will find it's way to American audiences via news, talk, etc.  You can know about japanese-only game titles without pirating them, right?  Same with movies, software, etc. and they do well without having to be pirated.  Also, you seem to be under the assumption that people are inherently going to steal the software in question because they don't want to support the developer by buying it instead.  Also, software can be great without it being cracked.  I know what you're getting at, but your view is seriously skewed.  By pirating any software, you spit in the faces of the developers, especially when it comes to small developers.  Imagine you put all the time and effort into creating a kick ass game, sell it and then for someone to come along, steal it and spread it around and tell everyone it's okay to just pirate since it won't be hurting you.  It will.

DRM has flaws and there are ways to protect your game better, but simply saying "Piracy is the only answer!" or "Don't protect your game, it's futile!  Just give it to us!" is just being, to be frank, stupid.

To the OP, there are ways of protecting anything and to be told your game isn't worth the time and effort means you have no confidence in its success.  Personally, I'm working on a project that is free, but if I were selling it, I'd want a way to protect it because I care about the hard work that has gone into it.  This is something you should think about, as well as everyone else.

 

[Helladen]

Piracy has pros and cons. Obviously it is wrong at some severity, but a lot of things are wrong. I wouldn't say you spit in the developers face if you don't spread the intel of how to steal it to anyone else. Blocking advertisements is in the same scope. I use an ad-blocker. Do I harm the person who makes content? Yes. But if I do show ads, I won't pay attention to them, so I am harming the company that is responsible for those ads. In any scope, you are causing harm. You're just being subjective on how the harm is being done.

 

[djDarkX]

Right, so, if I came into your house, stole something and told countless others how to steal from your place, that means it's cool?  I'll have to try that out sometime and tell people you said that it's fine.

Harming a dev is harming a dev, no matter how you do it.  I'm sure the smaller devs that have their stuff stolen will be more than happy to continue developing products for everyone.  I mean, it's only fair that their stuff is given away to everyone, right?  By your logic, that's what should happen.  Subjective or not, you're telling people it's okay to steal from anyone, and it's not.  However, if I ever see you creep into my house to steal something from me, you'd best make sure you have a weapon since I'll be defending my home from people that want to take my hard earned belongings.

However, I'm going to end this by saying what your suggesting is wrong in many ways, but obviously, I'm not going to change your mind, so this discussion is pointless.  The OP has the information he needs and various others will still see this thread later, so they can choose how they wish to go about doing things for their games.  Good day to you.

 

[Helladen]

I'm not saying it is right to steal or Pirate. Stealing is more severe than Pirating. Stealing refers to a physical object whereas Piracy is duplicating an existing work. Both are wrong, but I was saying that as an indie you won't have to worry about people cracking your game unless it gets big, so investing your efforts into DRM protection is a little absurd.

I have a mentality that I would give my work for free to benefit people. So, if my game gets stolen and doesn't make me anything then I didn't do a good enough job making it. Cause if people really like your product you will have support from people who know how to crack software. That's all I was saying. Do a good job and your game will live on. Don't get caught up with the protecting your work and wasting countless hours.

 

[Kes]

There is a previous extensive discussion precisely on these points.  I think it might be worth reading what's there.  http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/13663-drm-vs-drm-free/

 

[kerbonklin]

I felt sorry for people when I learned that a decryption program existed. It makes me worry a little about my own project.

 

[Andar]

I have a mentality that I would give my work for free to benefit people. So, if my game gets stolen and doesn't make me anything then I didn't do a good enough job making it.

But then, how do you get your food on your table?

A small developer depends on sales to get his money back - because making that game already cost a lot of money (paying artists for example), and the developer needs money to live on.

In many cases, especially if it's the first program to be sold, the developer has already put a lot of money into it before the game is finished and becomes available - not only by paying for help (those people need to eat, too), but also by paying for his own food during development.

Instead of just saying what the developer shouldn't do (like don't use DRM), please offer advice on what the developer shouid do to pay for his food.

Telling him to wait until the program is known (advertisment costs money, too) and some people who pirated the game might give him enough popularity to get some money back, is just the same as telling him he needs to be rich (at least has enough money to live on it for a few years making the game and waiting for success) before he can start make games.

Game companies - especially small companies that haven't had other games made before - need money fast when selling their first program, or they go down because they can't pay their bills much longer.

DRM isn't perfect - it has more than just a few problems. But without DRM, how is a game company supposed to get money for the game if everyone just pirates it?

And what's the percentage of games you purchased after playing with a pirated copy?

There is a lot of crap being written about piracy - for example it's just stupid to believe that everyone who pirated a game (or a movie, or a PDF of a book) would have paid for that. Most people who pirate things wouldn't have purchased them if they were unable to pirate them.

But that goes the other way as well: only very few people will pay for something that they can get for free, and if an indie game developer needs to wait for those few people, then he'll have to close shop before he can make a second game...

 

[Lorenze]

I don't mind DRM that much as long as it's not intrusive. While I'm against stuff like install limits,

I generally tolerate 'em. My game won't be including DRM, though. It's a bit of a waste of time

since the game will be cracked anyway in due time. 

Besides, I'd rather have my game be pirated and get free, positive advertising than it getting negative advertising

for having DRM in the first place. 

 

[Shaz]

DRM does not mean the most annoying, difficult to use protection that you can possibly find. It's great when people bring up the anti-DRM argument and quote all the worst-case examples, saying THAT'S why you shouldn't use it.


If you offer people a game without DRM and ask them to pay for it out of the goodness of their heart, most won't, no matter how honest they are. You are giving them an option, and not paying then becomes a valid choice, so even those who would not pirate a game, will not feel guilty about not paying.


DRM will not stop all pirates, but it will stop most of the casual "I'm prepared to pay for it, but I won't if you give me the option not to" people.


lol @Avvy, the "free, postitive advertising" that your game will get from being pirated, will be advertising to other pirates. It will not serve to increase your sales.


If all you want is for your game to be distributed to as wide a player base as possible, make it free and skip the DRM. If you actually want it to pay for your next meal, you have to do what you can to ensure players pay for it. Pirates are not your customers - making something easy or difficult for them will not affect your profit, so don't focus on them - focus on the people who WILL pay, unless you tell them (by excluding DRM) that it's okay for them not to.

 

[Helladen]

I felt sorry for people when I learned that a decryption program existed. It makes me worry a little about my own project.

A decryption program doesn't exist. I just seen RPG Maker XP compiles cracked before.

Instead of just saying what the developer shouldn't do (like don't use DRM), please offer advice on what the developer shouid do to pay for his food.

And what's the percentage of games you purchased after playing with a pirated copy?

Game Development is Hard

Game development is one of the hardest jobs ever created - not physically but mentally. You got to have such good coordination between a large set of people to even stand a chance in the commercial world. There's so many products out there; you barely stand a chance if you look at it as a paycheck. For example, I look at it as a challenge. Additionally, I strive to compete in the commercial world and don't need immediate pay. For people who need immediate pay, I would advise doing this as a hobby instead of playing games or whatever you do for fun. Once you get good enough to understand the market you're in, invest into it like a job.

Don't go into game development if you can't sit on a computer for 8 or more hours a day working. You will thank me later. You also need to literally love working on the computer... Also, be warned that game development is a huge task to master.

Love your Job

I jump into so many games to try them out and study the game design. I first figure out how everything works and try to get faster and faster at analyzing systems. That's what I do for fun. I don't need money if it is my hobby. A hobby isn't a job until you know you can make money from it. In which case, you then worry about DRM and those commercial problems. If you think your first game is going to make money, you need to seriously quit game development or reanalyze your competition. It's like an artist expecting their first painting to sell. That's why I get so mad at people who think they can make money on their first few games. I've been at this for over a decade and am barely at that stage. I don't consider myself bad, but I don't consider myself at the level of a professional. That's why indies have such a hard time, they have to really stand out and make something really polished.

Piracy

I support good software and games. If I don't like a game, I don't buy it. There are very few games I like, so I consider myself excluded from the marketplace.

 

[Lorenze]

DRM does not mean the most annoying, difficult to use protection that you can possibly find. It's great when people bring up the anti-DRM argument and quote all the worst-case examples, saying THAT'S why you shouldn't use it.

If you offer people a game without DRM and ask them to pay for it out of the goodness of their heart, most won't, no matter how honest they are. You are giving them an option, and not paying then becomes a valid choice, so even those who would not pirate a game, will not feel guilty about not paying.

DRM will not stop all pirates, but it will stop most of the casual "I'm prepared to pay for it, but I won't if you give me the option not to" people.

lol @Avvy, the "free, postitive advertising" that your game will get from being pirated, will be advertising to other pirates. It will not serve to increase your sales.

If all you want is for your game to be distributed to as wide a player base as possible, make it free and skip the DRM. If you actually want it to pay for your next meal, you have to do what you can to ensure players pay for it. Pirates are not your customers - making something easy or difficult for them will not affect your profit, so don't focus on them - focus on the people who WILL pay, unless you tell them (by excluding DRM) that it's okay for them not to.

I can understand that. I never said all forms of DRM were difficult and annoying.

I've got indie games with DRM (non-Steam) that are totally fine with me. I just think it's a waste of time seeing how it'll be cracked anyway,

and for people that hate ALL types of DRM, then that version is automatically better for them in addition to just being free.

I'm not sure if I can agree with just making the game free. There a plenty of commerical DRM-free games that have been widely

pirated yet still able to make a profit (Game Dev Tycoon, McPixel, etc.) 

Basically, I'm still not using DRM. If you wanna use, that's completely fine, just don't go overboard with it.

A decryption program doesn't exist. I just seen RPG Maker XP compiles cracked before.

Yeah, there are. At least for VX, I'm not entirely sure about Ace.

 

[Shaz]

DRM on small games is a waste of effort. I personally am against DRM and preventing Piracy. A lot of times, people don't have money to buy a product, so they get a copy of it from someone else, in reality, it is really like borrowing a game from someone.

• DRM harms customer loyalty and freedom. For example, I bought Diablo II and the DRM regulations actually prevented it from being played on more than one computer at a time. Companies tend to restrict it too much that it hurts sales instead of helping. Additionally, if you try to regulate something too much it makes the customer feel like you don't trust them enough not to steal it.
• Piracy is free advertising. If you make a good product that is worth paying for, people will support you even if they can get it for free. Of course there are always people who will never pay a dime for it, but they may support you in other ways you would of never imagined. People need to stop fighting over profits and more toward the greater good of humanity.
• Instead of fighting against Piracy using DRM, use it to your advantage. For example, if you can't make profits from people by selling them something, find other ways to survive by making your product more free and accessible. Additionally, services like Spotify and Pandora using advertising to generate revenue has made the music industry a much better place for everyone.

Let's not condone piracy in any way here. Whether it's good or bad, or whether people's "reasons" (aka "excuses") are good enough or not, piracy is piracy and is illegal. Please avoid the "don't use DRM because piracy is really good" argument.

 

[orochii]

Well, the annoying part of DRM actually is when the DRM service goes down. Anything else, is just having your key somewhere safe and voilà. It's just as having an account for a paid MMORPG (?). That from my personal user's perspective.

As for the cloud-thing... there is this "I don't feel like I own anything", but yeah, no one has ever owned anything. Even if you have it on a CD, it's someone else's intellectual property. The only things I own are those that aren't intellectual at all, like a chair. See this chair? It's mine!

From my developer perspective, all I can say is that there are a LOT of VERY talented people that take any kind of software protection as a personal challenge. The DRM, the Cloud-thing, whatever. As an example, when Adobe CC was launched, several hours later a patch was somewhere, uploaded. Any kind of protection is not 100% flawless (Captain Obvious stated this). Not even condoms.

Still, I support Shaz and other's point. Protection is not useless. The internet is huge (oooh yeah I'm Captain Obvious! for a second time), and if your DRM protects your software from a 1% of horny people (???), well, that translates to a lot. Someday. Maybe.

Anyway, if you have mooneey, throw an awsum DRM on your game's face,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[sabao]

I say as long as you have the means for it, go DRM. as previously pointed out, we as creators have the right to protect our intellectual property and while the system itself isn't perfect (what system is, really?), it's better than nothing.