How Many Turns Do You Prefer to Fight Enemies?

Kupotepo

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You are right that I have considered the number of troops, the stats of them, and types of enemies. I understand this is a very general question. However, I would like to know how you handle this. Do not have to commit to a specific tune to end the combat. You can give me a range of what you think is not too short for you or too long for you to fight one battle.

I borrow the phrases from @BurningOrca.
Mechanic: the default battle system

I do not know that I can be specified. Sorry about providing the context clues:
Scrap Enemies: I think about 4 members vs. 3-4 enemies per the battle.
Regular Enemies: I think about 4 members vs. 3-4 enemies per the battle.
Boss: I think about 4 members vs. 1-2 bosses per the battle.
Fake Final Bosses: I think about 4 members vs. 1-2 bosses per the battle.
True Final Bosses: I think about 4 members vs. 1 boss per the battle.

Thank you @BLACK Pagon for terminology, Scrap Enemies: the beginning weak enemies cute monsters. I think about 1-2 turns. [Just examples: Slime, Snake, Stone, Imp, bat, and rabbit]
Regular Enemies: [Weak enemies to annoying players] how many turns do you think it took too long to defeat all of the enemies? [I think about 3 to 4 turns would be enough for the players to spend time there.]
[Succubus, Solider, and Human Eating Plant]
Boss [Just the monsters are stronger than normal enemies]: I think as the end of the cave boss and the end of the forest. [Prefer about 5-6 turn to defeat them]
[Captain, Lamia, and Death monster]
Fake Final Bosses: The early boss that the creator wants players to think it is the mastermind. But, it is not. [7-8 turns.]
[Lich, General, and Dragon]
True Final Bosses: I think about roughly 9-10 turns split over different transformations. It is the real prime-mover of disasters.
[Evil God and Light God] That I can come up off my head.
What do you think? I know I ask you to jump into the sea of unknown.
 
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ScorchedGround

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Hmm... I dunno. It depends on how many "Regular Enemies" you fight.
I think 2 turns seems adequate enough for regular fights, 3 or 4 at most. Anything else gets tideous.

I believe Bosses can have more turns to be honest. But again that depends on how fast your combat system is. Long battles are not automatically bad just for being long. If the dev implements enough different and fresh mechanics and switches things up during the battle from time to time it can get pretty exciting, even for a prolonged battle.

For default RPG Maker turn-based systems I think I would like it to look like this:
Regular battles: ~2-3 Turns, maybe 4 at most
Bosses: Anywhere from 7-15 Turns (The longer the battle though, the more interesting mechanics should be present)
FInal Boss: Anywhere from 10-25 Turns ( same rules apply as with normal bosses; do anything to prevent simple button mashing from happening and keep things fresh)
 

Black Pagan

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Well, I divide my Enemies into various Kinds and Mix and Match them in Battles :

Scrap Enemies - They are Easy Encounters, Die in 1 Turn, Always
Normal Enemies - They are Regular Encounters, Die in 2 ~ 3 Turns
Elite Enemies - They are Rare Encounters, Can take upto 4 Turns to Die
Boss Enemies - They are Challenging Encounters, Can take upto 12 Turns to Die

When i mean turns, This would obviously include any kind of Special abilities that the Player uses and is not restricted to Normal Attacks. So obviously, Only attacking with Basic attacks would drag this to a few more additional turns.
 

MerlinCross

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Unsure about bosses as they can vary due to mechanics.

But you're on the ball for Regular enemies. Any more than 5 turns starts to feel like a drag unless I'm clearly underleveled, doing something wrong, OR bad things have happened.
 

Cythera

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As long as the battle remains interesting, I'm very lenient with the length of said battle. If every encounter I'm using the same strategy, I'll just avoid fighting in your game, sadly. I need variance!
Normal encounters, around 3 turns seems to be the usual accepted number. Enough for things to happen, and for players to need to focus and strategize, but not long enough to feel dragged out.
Boss: I have no preference; make me fight for 30 turns, as long as I'm engaged in the battle!
Final Boss: Similar to above - and perhaps an unpopular opinion, I am not a fan of transforming final bosses. Yawn, seen it too often, it doesn't hold my attention like it used to. Now, changing the boss tactics and forcing me to change my strategy...that is more my style.
 

The Stranger

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Depends on how much fun I'm having. If enemies, any enemies, are fun to fight then I won't mind them taking a fair few turns to defeat. If, however, they do nothing but spam irritating skills, such as paralyse or full heal, then I want the fight to be over as quickly as possible.

Bosses are pretty much the same.

I think every encounter should be a threat. If enemies aren't much of a threat, then why even fight them? Why do they exist?
 

Kupotepo

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@ScorchedGround, thank you for your time here.

I think 2 turns seems adequate enough for regular fights, 3 or 4 at most. Anything else gets tideous.
I think the slimes are 2 turns are good ideas.

Scrap Enemies - They are Easy Encounters, Die in 1 Turn, Always
You are right the beginning enemies really need to be quick. The silly monsters are the most fun to kill.

Depends on how much fun I'm having. If enemies, any enemies, are fun to fight then I won't mind them taking a fair few turns to defeat.
Do you think I let you off the hook for me to understand specifically what you mean?
Do you refer to the enemies who make jokes to players, enemies that are spamming like @Finnuval conversations, or the one which has high hp?
Please @Finnuval, don't fight me.

I am not a fan of transforming final bosses.
Yeah, it is a common practice of Final Fantasy. It is just a starting point.

I think every encounter should be a threat. If enemies aren't much of a threat, then why even fight them? Why do they exist?
Dropping Items and exercise player's fingers.
 
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Alkaline

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I think it depends on the mechanic. If you have a more complex battle system that takes turns to charge up and what not, longer battles can be more exciting.

Weaker enemies depend on how much they would get in the way.
Can you kill them just by mindlessly pressing the action button? Are they there just to inflict statuses on your party? Is there a benefit in having those battles? Can the party farm something out of those monsters?
I think those are some parameters you should keep in mind :)
 

HumanNinjaToo

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I would say it depends a lot on how frequent the battles are and how interesting the combat is.

If there are not a lot of battles (i.e. 2-3 per room in the dungeon) then I don't mind the trash mob battles taking more than 3-4 rounds of turns as long as the combat is interesting and requires me to think about what I'm doing. If the combat is mind numbing and boring, and I'm doing the same actions with each character on each of their turns then 1-2 rounds is good.

Here's the deal though, I don't think you can come in and throw an arbitrary 'number of max rounds = best rpg combat experience' at the wall and expect it to stick, I don't care what the argument is that supports it.

Some combat mechanics make for great boss fights and boring trash mob fights, so having 20 minute boss fights might be great if they engage the player and require strategy. Those same mechanics may not translate well to trash mobs, so 5-7 rounds per trash mob could be boring if there are lots of encounters.

I really don't think this is an easy question to answer. I know a lot of people probably go by some archaic rule of 1-2 rounds per trash mob and 8-10 rounds per boss fight. That rule probably works half the time, but I don't think anyone should necessarily design by that kind of philosophy because there are too many variables to consider when creating a game.

Most of my fights in DOS2 take 10-20 minutes when I'm playing any non-god-mode build. I can't imagine the fights only lasting 1-2 minutes because that would be boring to me considering the mechanics of the battle system. On the other hand, I can't imagine doing another playthrough of any Star Ocean if each trash mob battle took much more than 30-90 seconds.
 

Kupotepo

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Here's the deal though, I don't think you can come in and throw an arbitrary 'number of max rounds = best rpg combat experience' at the wall and expect it to stick, I don't care what the argument is that supports it.
lol:guffaw:
You are really intelligent. It is subjective. You are correct depending on the mechanic. How about I use the Default Battle System. I just want the general ideas of what you guys feel the battle takes too long and you want to do something else like exploring the hidden treasures.

I don't mind the trash mob battles taking more than 3-4 rounds of turns as long as the combat is interesting and requires me to think about what I'm doing.
I enjoy picking the characters' skills choices. [People talk about the elemental weakness, but that's for another person's thread.]
 
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The Stranger

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@Kupotepo Even if you're using the default battle system it still depends on things such as: skills, party composition, encounter composition, encounter frequency, etc. There's no hard and fast rules for this. There's no way to categorise encounters in general because they'll differ from game to game, even when using nothing but the default battle system.
 

Kupotepo

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@The Stranger, you are right and you are wise indeed there are no written rules. That is why I conduct this census to get the compromise. I like the short battle as possible, but some people here might like the long battle. Fair, Fun, and Balance, you are correct I have to get an answer to these questions with playtesters. Not fighting you on this.
 
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Milennin

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It depends on the type of game. In games where you are expected to get into battles a lot, or those with more simplistic combat systems, shorter is better (probably 2-3 turns at most, for trash).
In games, where individual encounters matter, or there are more complex battle mechanics, you want more turns. It would depend on the frequency of the encounters, and how many turns the battle mechanics require to shine.
 

Kupotepo

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It depends on the type of game. In games where you are expected to get into battles a lot, or those with more simplistic combat systems, shorter is better (probably 2-3 turns at most, for trash).
I think I do that. I like the KISS method for the combating system. If I am half-confusing, how do I expect the players to understand? [@Milennin don't have high hope for me.] I forget that you are here have to be careful because a lot of the devs are really genius and mindblowing things can be possible. I see why you are careful. Sorry for the rush to judgment.

If, however, they do nothing but spam irritating skills, such as paralyse or full heal, then I want the fight to be over as quickly as possible.
I agree with you. I hate types of enemies too. [Challenger players like that.]

Some combat mechanics make for great boss fights and boring trash mob fights, so having 20 minute boss fights might be great if they engage the player and require strategy.
Let us have a presumption of a boring trash mob in this case. I like moving toward a more bad one than an excited one.
Nevermind, you just answered that.
so 5-7 rounds per trash mob could be boring if there are lots of encounters
 
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Frostorm

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I have to ask for clarification when you guys say "turns". Do you mean "actions" or actual "turns"? If something takes 2 turns to kill and you have a party of 4, then that's 8 actions. Or if you really mean actions and not turns when using the term "turns" then 2 "turns" means 2 "actions" or half a turn.
 

Kupotepo

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@Frostorm, no no, it is my fault. I mean the main party characters' turn of actions. Like 1 turn for your party and one turn for the enemy side. Keep asking questions if you do understand what I mean. It is usually my fault for bad at framing questions.

I really don't think this is an easy question to answer. I know a lot of people probably go by some archaic rule of 1-2 rounds per trash mob and 8-10 rounds per boss fight.
I speak in generality. Just the rule of thumb, not every enemy has the same mold and not stick to the stone. The players will bore to death by me if I did that. Do not worry I am not taking off your points. Anyway, thank you for providing me the head start.
 
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Frostorm

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  • Trash - Assuming equal level and no extra gimmicks, I'd say these should require 5-7 actions or between 1 and 2 turns to kill
  • Elite - I like to make these about as strong as the player units so they should require 10-15 actions or anywhere from 3 to 5 turns to kill (these are good opportunities to introduce toned-down versions of gimmicks that the next boss might have)
  • Boss - 8 to 12 turns at least depending on mechanics
I'm probably overestimating the number of turns since I'm thinking in a tactical RPG mindset right now lol. Apologies for that... But honestly, I don't think these should be measured in turns, but rather the overall pace of combat which should also take into account encounter frequency as well. The above numbers are so arbitrary I probably won't abide by them myself.
 

Kupotepo

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I'm probably overestimating the number of turns since I'm thinking in a tactical RPG mindset right now lol. Apologies
Do not worry. I understand there are many types of RPG games out there and they are many factors as everyone here said to influence the enjoyments of players and how long they would like to stay in the combats.
It is just a simple question based on your preference, not logic. I am not John Kramer, Jigsaw. :guffaw:

The above numbers are so arbitrary I probably won't abide by them myself.
I agree with you. It is just basic thinking. If I keep doing that continuously, players will magically disappear. Suprise the players. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I believe Bosses can have more turns to be honest. But again that depends on how fast your combat system is.
Is that true? That Bosses can have more turns than the party members. I did not know that. That is really intriguing me.
I am only heard that the Bosses have multiple actions per turn. [Action Times] Thank you for expanding my mind.
That is an interesting take of action RPG which used time actions. I am not doing that. Yes, I see people did that. People here are supportive and intellectual. That is why I like this community so much.:kaoluv:
 
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woootbm

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This is a good topic. I don't know if people really realize how important this can be. One of the companies I worked for in the past had a big problem with this. People would always say the combat was the strongest part of the game, but they also seemed to get bored of it really easily. They referred to the problem as "combat fatigue". Which just means that players will get tired of beating on things no matter how fun your combat is.

Now, the best way to fight against this is by giving the player interesting things to do in their downtime: story, crafting, travel, puzzles, etc. Anything that isn't combat that is interesting. This topic isn't about that, so I won't get into those (should be self-explanatory anyway).

For the combat itself, I think there's three things people aren't really getting into all that much: type of game, purpose/reward of fight, and speed/animations.

Type of game: touched on a little bit up there. But a game with a more tactical leaning should generally have longer fights. Games that are more casual or meant to appeal to a broader audience would have shorter ones.

Purpose/reward: if you can design a good narrative and reward system, you can get people to soak into the combat more. If they realize that at the end of this fight they'll get some meaningful upgrade, like a legendary sword, or if it has a bigger purpose, like the end of a quest chain, they'll be more invested. Basically, players need to think a fight is important to want to be in it longer. This can be things other than it being a boss fight. And I just wanna say...

Scrap Enemies: the beginning weak enemies cute monsters. I think about 1-2 turns. [Slime, Snake, Stone, Imp, bat, and rabbit]
...I never want to play or make a game that does this. These fights have no importance. I realize this is a common way to start a JRPG, and obviously I'm not that big on this style, but it's ... really a gamble. You're going to bet that a player is willing to go through this waste of time to get to the good stuff? I don't know, dude. If you're an indie and your game is short, I say have the player hit the ground running.

Speed/animation: this is waaaaay more important than I think people realize. I realize Final Fantasy has 5 minute long summon animations, but c'mon. I would make sure to prune your animations and take stock of just how many buttons presses it takes to do things. It's cool to use Yanfly's Sequence packs, but that stuff adds up. You need to realize players will do these repetitive actions thousands of times. I had an animation that was less than a second long, and I cut it in half. And boy, it made combat feel like a breeze!

Anyway, the TLDR is: don't just think about number of turns. Look at total time in fight and how many fights. If your game starts with 10 turn fights, 10 in a row. Yeah, that might be a bit of a slog. Cut 'em down. But 10 fights that are 1 turn long could ALSO be a slog. Playtest, iterate, improve!
 

Kupotepo

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@woootbm, thank you for sharing your experience. Yeah, it is true as people we crave for the changing of pace. Ok, you are doing the carrot and stick method.
Yeah, I hear people around clearly. That person likes the maze runner because they are right the mandatory battles first and optional grinding. Thank you for confirming my observations.
 
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