How much evil is too much evil?

[CrazyCrab]

Hi everyone,

In my current game you'll be playing a paranormal detective who tracks down demons when they commit crimes and I'm wondering just how evil should I make them...

I think that after being exposed to all these psychopath stories etc. (thanks internet!) I think I'm having trouble keeping it moderate and not crossing the ''Teen'' Rating too much as the things I can show using 32x32 tiles aren't all that horrible and I'm somewhat immune to descriptions at this point.

While I still want to make them demonic I can see that a lust demon offering you a night of shape shifting in exchange for liberty is definitely way, way too grotesque even it will just be a fade to black. Same goes for a wrath demon who unleashes the inner warrior making family members duel each other till death or the gluttony demon who replaces insides with flies and maggots...

So, how can I make them evil while keeping it moderate? Is there some ''Teen Rating'' Guideline I can follow?

More importantly though, do you think that having extremely grotesque and evil monsters is something I should keep if it will reinforce the atmosphere and keep it more natural?

 

[Ashton]

Part of it depends on the narrative. You can have a scene that, if shown, would be R-rated, and simply have your character avert his eyes (i.e. a severely mutilated corpse, just have the character "look under the sheet" and say "ugh, my stomach is churning, now THAT is bad" --- a LOT can be done with implication. You can also, such as the mentioned "offer" make your character above such things, simply have him say "What do you take me for? I'd never accept a deal like that!" These kind of things can also really build a character's background and show how they feel about different situations without ever saying so (i.e. the "mutilated corpse under the sheet can disgust a character for whatever reasons, or he can simply be disappointed that it makes him more work (showing just how "hard" and "gritty" the character is) and by declining the shifter's offer, it shows he has a strong moral fiber)

As for how Evil the monsters can get, you can go the full spectrum from teasing bullies all the way to world-ending psychopaths without ever breaking the "T" rating (or if handled very carefully, even a "G" rating! you'd be amazed what gets put in kid's "action/adventure" shows.) It all depends on how you handle the narrative. 

Personally, I'd pull no punches, start off small and as the plot unfolds tie everything together to a plot to destroy/enslave/etc the world. Slowly raise the stakes until you can't go any higher, that's how you build up drama and make the final ending feel all the more important to the game's world.

 

[Eschaton]

I promise you, you'll never come up with anything as evil as what happens in real life.

Also, *rape* and/or *child abuse/rape/murder* are definitely lines you shouldn't cross.

 

[Fernyfer775]

What Eschaton said ^

I played Resident evil as a kid, and those games were brutally grotesque, but they didn't pass any "lines" so to say. 

Just keep it within socially acceptable guidelines and there shouldn't be any problems.

 

[Ashton]

Also, *rape* and/or *child abuse/rape/murder* are definitely lines you shouldn't cross.

I think that depends more on the narrative. In the right setting, the right audience and the right author (or in this case developer) there is no line that should not be crossed. Sometimes, with certain tales, there are in fact lines that _need_ to be crossed.

If you really want to show a villain has crossed the moral event horizon into total monster territory with no hope of redemption, have it burn down an orphanage (or for added pathos, a children's hospital), or have a character start off as broken angel that slowly regains her (or his) courage, then rape is certainly an option. Yes, it's horrible, but if the game is being realistic and things are handled delicately, you can keep the rating lower and have a wonderfully dark back-story for a character to strive to overcome.

Also, be aware of crossing the line twice if you do handle really horrific events. You can make an event SO horrible that it degrades from a tragedy in the player's mind to simple black humor.

EDIT:

also, if you want to really show a hero (or villain's) human side, have them risk their life to save said children from the orphanage/hospital, against all odds and at great personal danger.

 

[Eschaton]

Well, if you're going to play the trope game...

 

[Ashton]

Well, if you're going to play the trope game...

I see your trope and raise you:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsBackstory

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsDrama

(not that either disagrees -or agrees- with either of our points, but then, we must remember http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools )

 

[Fernyfer775]

I'm extremely de-sensitized to most "evil" things when it comes to games and movies, but to be honest, the one thing that will never be okay with me, and always puts me off is rape.

Done right, a child being hurt or killed is bearable for story purposes, but rape is that one thing that I just can't deal with or see. Just my 2 cents!

 

[saintivan]

There are two ways to go:

1) Be true to your vision.

2) Tone-down to your audience. 

It depends what your ultimate goal of your game is.

Is the game for you to explore your uncensored creativity? Or are you planning to market to a target audience?

 

[Ashton]

There are two ways to go:

1) Be true to your vision.

2) Tone-down to your audience. 

It depends what your ultimate goal of your game is.

Is the game for you to explore your uncensored creativity? Or are you planning to market to a target audience?

This is the very first question the author/developer should ask themselves, because it is so important on how the media can develop.

 

[frrrosty]

I think you can get away with a lot in text, that is very descriptive and scary, without going into too many details if you want to stay in "Teen" area.  Teens have great imaginations and can do a lot with a little.

I'd say start with what you WANT to do, and if something feels wrong, tone it down.  You don't have to get it right on your first pass.

All of that said, I did start reading adult horror novels when I was very young (before I was a teenager) so I may not be the best person to ask.  I love this kind of stuff.

 

[Ashton]

All of that said, I did start reading adult horror novels when I was very young (before I was a teenager) so I may not be the best person to ask.  I love this kind of stuff.

Off topic but I must say. There is one story/book that scares me more than any other, that would be 1984 (Though Fahrenheit 451 is up there as well)

 

[SLEEP]

Are you planning on taking your game to a ratings board? Or selling it on a site with guidelines regarding content? If not, don't worry about ratings. Ratings are overrated. 

With that said, if you want teenagers playing, they would probably be uncomfortable being confronted with realistic violence and dark sexual themes. (Not that they can't handle them, and not that adults wouldn't be affected by such content either, aND NOT TO MENTION that would probably be hard to pull off in the RPG Maker engine without  art style clash) But what you've suggested is fantasy demon magical powers, lots of games for teens feature those, I'd worry more about keeping things in good taste than alienating teenagers.

 

[Napdevil]

If you watch children's cartoons from the 80's to the 90's, you come across tons of adult jokes and innuendo that makes you wonder "How did this stuff ever get approved?" The answer is simple: you can get away with just about anything if you're subtle enough.

You should never be in a situation where you're thinking to yourself, 'Child abuse is too heavy, better cut it from my game.' That's a cop-out in my opinion. Instead, ask yourself, 'How can I explore this subject in a subtle enough way that I'm not hitting my players over the head with it?' Have your players read between the lines. Imply, rather than show. Nothing is too sacred if you tackle it in the right way.

If you're looking for inspiration, the Stuffed Friend comic floating around the net is a good example: http://i.imgur.com/1hfcN.gif

 

[Ashton]

Are you planning on taking your game to a ratings board? Or selling it on a site with guidelines regarding content? If not, don't worry about ratings. Ratings are overrated. 

 that would probably be hard to pull off in the RPG Maker engine 

While I've not experimented with them, there are scripts to completely change dialogue to show a large image across the top of the screen, then the dialogue below it, much like scenes from older games, this would make it possible to show slightly higher-res images (possibly even make it into a sort of comic if the author wanted... and if s/he really wanted to go over the top, iirc there are scripts to force higher resolutions on the game, unto and including 1080p, (sadly 6K isn't supported yet :lol: ) which would maximize the resolution available)

If you watch children's cartoons from the 80's to the 90's, you come across tons of adult jokes and innuendo that makes you wonder "How did this stuff ever get approved?" The answer is simple: you can get away with just about anything if you're subtle enough.

You should never be in a situation where you're thinking to yourself, 'Child abuse is too heavy, better cut it from my game.' That's a cop-out in my opinion. Instead, ask yourself, 'How can I explore this subject in a subtle enough way that I'm not hitting my players over the head with it?' Have your players read between the lines. Imply, rather than show. Nothing is too sacred if you tackle it in the right way.

If you're looking for inspiration, the Stuffed Friend comic floating around the net is a good example: http://i.imgur.com/1hfcN.gif

lol. you think this has stopped? True the 80s and 90s were a little more heavy-handed than most of today, but look at Adventure Time or even the new My Little Pony, There's some stuff in there that even makes some adults get nervous (including Adult Fears)

Oh man, if you think it's just about being subtle... getting things past a ratings board is a whole new shoebox of trout...

But I digress... I completely agree, there is no issue that should be "completely off limits" and anything can be touched on if don't correctly. Also, if you leave out just the right details, you can make a scene FAR scarier than if you told the audience all the details because their imaginations will come up with ideas that terrify them more than a whole page of blood and gore ever could...

 

[Crash]

It's all about which players you are targeting with your game. And, by the way, as far as villains go destroying villages, mass murdering etc, things like rape are nothing.

 

[GrandmaDeb]

I was told that the word "obscene" comes from the Latin for "Off Stage." Or "out of the scene"


Of course I cannot confirm this with anything online, but the guy studies Latin.


And this is a really good term to think about in writing and and in evaluating literature and art.


So when someone says that you shouldn't cross the line into rape and child abuse, I don't think they are saying (at least from my way of thinking) that no good literature or art deals with these subjects.


In fact, there was a tough call in a religious school of my acquaintance when they wanted to display famous art by well recognized painters about historical battles. But the truth is, there was rape in so many of the pictures (owing at least in some small part to the fact that it would have actually happened.)


I think there is an important judgment to be made about what is on-scene and what is off-scene. Clearly, in a serious work, you can deal with any subject.


The question is, what do you act out?


@Crash - I don't think you ever want to be caught in a conversation with a woman saying that rape is "nothing." Even when comparing it to mass murder. We don't say to murder victims, "Well only your family died so that is nothing compared to this mass murder of 45 people." Just my perspective, and maybe flawed, but you will offend any woman I've ever personally known.

 

[Eschaton]

I'm saying that - as a writer - dealing with these subjects in a convincing manner that doesn't devalue real-life victims or trivialize their experiences...will take you someplace you don't want to go...

 

[Crash]

@Crash - I don't think you ever want to be caught in a conversation with a woman saying that rape is "nothing." Even when comparing it to mass murder. We don't say to murder victims, "Well only your family died so that is nothing compared to this mass murder of 45 people." Just my perspective, and maybe flawed, but you will offend any woman I've ever personally known.

I know it's terrible by itself, but when compared to other kinds of torture or murder it isn't that bad.

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

It depends on what your target audience is.  But--to be truthfully honest--there is no limit to how evil a villain can be. A witch cooked a man alive with lightning JUST BECAUSE HE CROSSED PATHS WITH HER. The sky's the limit! Just be sure it coincides with your storyline and that it's not random.