How much is too much for a mock up?

[TheGreatEater]

Spent the last 5 hours [well 8, but three of those were spent away from the computer]. Making a Parallax map of a basement [i still  need to do furniture, misc. nick knacks,  a custom enemy [Roosk]. Since I can't get tiles saved as paintbrushes in Gimp [won't work for me for some reason]. I've been doing every tile, foreground, and background bit as custom. So I only have part of one frame scene up atm [although it is the base for that battle scene mock up, so it's not that bad.]

I have no problem doing all custom art for the Mock Up [especially since they're going to end up as map bits later on. But since I'll be doing custom battle backer [for basement scene], frame by frame of fighting animations, while doing a side by side of similar IRL systems they were inspired by. 

I want to know if doing an entire video animation [at least five or ten mins worth. If I can tag in commentary. Don't know how much if I can't] of gif files [which I can't locate Gimp animations. So I'll be looking for a different animator]. 

The question is generally. How much is too much, and how much is good? I mean I can go over every aspect of the over all engine I'm going to be hunting for, or I can simply limit it to what is exactly necessary right now? Since while it will add material that I'll be using ahead of schedule. It'll also be taking time from making PC's. Which brings me to the need of the engine (or at least a quick fix till I get a team some day. Hopefully). Since I need battlers to fine tune my characters attacks. 

[Roughdraft structure:]

 

I'm going for a Mana Khemia / Persona (3 or 4) set up. So alot of my parralaxes indoors will be simulating entire rooms. With the outside being me tilting the tiles so they are almost 'flat' rather than taking up the entire map [Like normally it's a giant block you scroll on. I take that and slant it. I don't know the artsy term for that.]. Then layering shadows, scenery, other players, what have you. Which is why I have an actual ceiling up rather than leaving it dark. Don't know what I'll be doing with multi-rooms in one area yet. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it ^_^.

 

 

[Celianna]

If you've spent 5 hours working on a map, and only have got to show for one type of floor, one type of wall, a staircase and a door, then yes, you are spending too much time on this.


Try to get the basics down first, don't try to cram everything in there that you want, or try making everything you can yourself. This will take a lot of time. So search for some ready-to-use resources instead.

 

[bgillisp]

Why not start the game out as a Persona 3/4 type game with 2d Graphics? I think that would be easier and it would allow you to see if you have enough game before burning the time on the art. You can always add in the graphics later. One solution might be to pick a graphic in the RTP as a placeholder and use that for all your placeholders. That way you know this needs to be fixed. Maybe something outlandish, like the Black Shadow graphic representing a student you don't have the graphic for?

 

[TheGreatEater]

If you've spent 5 hours working on a map, and only have got to show for one type of floor, one type of wall, a staircase and a door, then yes, you are spending too much time on this.

Try to get the basics down first, don't try to cram everything in there that you want, or try making everything you can yourself. This will take a lot of time. So search for some ready-to-use resources instead.

My only real problem atm is finding an animated battler that won't derp on my sprites XD. But yeah, I'll definitely look a bit harder for ready to use resources while I get the basics down. 

Why not start the game out as a Persona 3/4 type game with 2d Graphics? I think that would be easier and it would allow you to see if you have enough game before burning the time on the art. You can always add in the graphics later. One solution might be to pick a graphic in the RTP as a placeholder and use that for all your placeholders. That way you know this needs to be fixed. Maybe something outlandish, like the Black Shadow graphic representing a student you don't have the graphic for?

Well one reason is that I spent an entire eight days on the animation of the battler problem mentioned in this thread.  The second is, I don't really feel 2D does it justice. Although, it might have to work for now.  I was thinking of making a thread on good types on battle systems. See what's good out there / popular [regardless of type so I can at get that done with]. 

Tactical / stealth might work. But I honestly can say I don't know of any ones atm. Do you know any tactical ones that are any good? And I guess if there was a Devil Survivor like battler, that'd work. Something for me to show some stuff off, and learn how animations work. [distance wise]. And if all else. Yeah, I guess default could work if nothing else. Personally for battle testing I've been abusing my poor test character [EPMBL [Earth Pony Male Base Light [Got 2 variants. Heavy body base, and Light body base]]. 

 

[Sharm]

Okay, so as I see it you're spending way to much time trying to get it perfect and not nearly enough time on just seeing if the concept works or not.  Don't mess with the graphics at all, don't even bother to find something that's sort of right, just get something that will represent what you'll put in later and get it set up so you can test it.  Imagine spending all this time and effort to make something gorgeous only to find out that it's not any fun to play!  All that time and effort will be wasted and you'll have to do everything over again.  Get it functional first, add complexity later.  This holds true for making art too, if you're drawing a battler or a map or whatever.

 

[TheGreatEater]

              Alright, that'll actually cut my time down by alot since I have all 90% of the scripts I need for a barebones concept product [just have two that're  actual necessities, but I can commission / request that.], and the rest I can do through events once I find out how to get Input Trigger to work. And can work on just getting the basics finished up. 

 

[dungeon diver]

Developers will often substitute color-coded boxes for their graphical assets until said assets are completed and ready to be implemented. Getting an enjoyable minimum viable product together is much more valuable than looking good in the early stages of a project.

 

[headdie]

The nice thing with the map system in RPG maker is that you can use the built in tiles or colour coded tiles as Dungeon Diver says and then replace them en mas at a later point when you have what you need with relatively little effort.  This will allow you to quickly prototype your game or areas of the game, working on the mechanics, basic map design and story which are infinally more important than the overall appearance to making a fun game.  Also you will probably find yourself adjusting the maps as you develop things, this is much easier to do with a rough plan of base tiles than with a fully released parallax map

short version: Make the game fun then worry about what it looks like 

 

[TheGreatEater]

Developers will often substitute color-coded boxes for their graphical assets until said assets are completed and ready to be implemented. Getting an enjoyable minimum viable product together is much more valuable than looking good in the early stages of a project.

Ah. That's actually good to know. I was just worried that the rather lack luster tiles would make things look too unappealing. But yeah other than a few necessities, I'll be able to get some good experience while I work on the mechanics ^_^. I'll just put all assets that are in development into a clearly labeled folder, and work on getting things working as smoothly and as fun as possible before going into the graphics and more finicky bits.  

The nice thing with the map system in RPG maker is that you can use the built in tiles or colour coded tiles as Dungeon Diver says and then replace them en mas at a later point when you have what you need with relatively little effort.  This will allow you to quickly prototype your game or areas of the game, working on the mechanics, basic map design and story which are infinally more important than the overall appearance to making a fun game.  Also you will probably find yourself adjusting the maps as you develop things, this is much easier to do with a rough plan of base tiles than with a fully released parallax map

short version: Make the game fun then worry about what it looks like 

Thanks both of you, I made a quick request of one mechanic that I'd need a script for. But other than that, since it being fun is more important (late game) than looking pretty. I can work focus on the mechanics of it, using game art / tiles for 99% of everything, and when I've been working for the 5 month minimum and can recruit a team / finish base product. Can worry about the rest later. 

 

[ArcaneEli]

To be as completly honest as possible which is gonna be quite harsh:

If you spent 5hours on that, I'd recommened not doing this type of design at all. Cause Dear god,

I can see the roof, the back wall which looks like the rook, and the side of the wall where the door is which looks like the rest of the wall so it took me a while to figure THAT out. Also makes zero sense why you can see the door slanted like that yet the wall looks flat.

Edit: I just relooked at it and realized the sidewall which the doorframe is on extends like 5feet to the right of the door which makes even LESS sense.

Those Stairs look horrid, I though for like 45seconnds that the stairs went upwards, Then somehow did a 360 and looked like you could decend the stairs going upwards. Like I have zero idea what the heck that is supposed to be.

I can see like 3graphical errors at first glance, the rug looks like Half the design was cut out and pasted so they overlapped and it just looks like crap.

I would juump waaaay back before attempting anything like this, cause for 5hours this looks completly horrible. In all honesty I have nothing good to say about that map...

Last thing remember there is always those people who dislike the game you're gonna make so don't read this then insta-quit. Just do what you feel is right/want to do.

 

[TheGreatEater]

Oh, I know it looks absolutely horrible, and if I were to do an actual mock up, that'd never make it in there [i'd have spent a week if I had to, or longer making sure the wooden floors, [Never knew how hard it was to pull off the details of oak, varnished wood before] looked more realistic. The stairs both conveyed it was for a poor entity [and basement level]. And was able to handle bigger sprites.]. And what you were seeing was the ceiling, not a roof. 

As for looks like a door. Did you click on the thumb nail? I'm not really getting your comment on how it looks like you're supposed to go down going upwards [when they only thing I can say about the forward facing stairs is that they are in descending order [even if they do look crappy]? Honestly, I'd have thrown a map transfer bit before the stairs, regardless of where they were [if I were going to parallax, since I can't seem to find any parallax vids that show case multi/layer terrain / stairs, and stairs in RPG Maker make no regardless. I mean they don't move up stairs, they simply walk straight into the tile they are connected too.]] 

But yeah, my roughdrafts, almost  always look like cthulu's feces painted by brain dead monkey. It's usually either my fifth or sixth time anally pooring over something, that I get something halfway decent. 

As for quitting, I wouldn't do that. Sometimes people need to hear constructive criticism that's on the harsh side if they want to improve. Although still don't know how to convey oak, wood flooring into 32 square over lapping tiles, but quite honestly I've stopped work on that room. People keep saying work on the game, do everything else later. So if I have to, when I get a team together, I'll find someone who can do rooms [similar to what you have in Persona series, or an angling program where you don't see black space from where the map doesn't cover it [ Like this black spot eye sore.] really do not like the fact that black portion shows up on all room map parallax tutorials. Unless there a secret passage way / underground, black spots like that, just are visually unappealing. 

Anyways. Thanks for commenting, and yeah, if I ever do touch that again, it'd be to redo it. Have a good day ^_^.

Edit:

I can't see how people can make tutorial videos of making the most beautiful landscapes. Just breathtaking in some cases, but they show rooms / indoor areas and it's filled with lots of empty space, and huge black pits like each room is in the middle of a black hole or something. Nice decors sure. But where forests, and rivers looks life like, there's none of that attention to detail to indoor areas for some reason. So when I do get seriously into mapping, or find someone to do the art , it'll be enclosed, or at least a portrayl of a room, rather staring into an abyss outside the room's map. 

[and that map I was using was way to big. I should've gone smaller, with bigger panneling using a better model, and made it look nicer before asking how long a mockup should take. That first draft is ugly. I'll admit.]