How old should a new Hero be?

[Cadh20000]

To start with, I hope I'm right to post this here. If not please tell me and I'll move or delete it.

While my project and the feedback on it brought this up originally, I think the topic itself is general enough to warrant a broader discussion. I will reference both my game and real history to support my view, you feel free to reference what ever you want to support yours.

Anyway... The question of the hour is...

"How old is an appropriate age for the hero of a RPG involving fighting other humans as well as monsters?"

My Example:

I was told that my game's heroes seemed too young for this, being planned for ages 11 through 13(+/- a year or so), to give some context... Due to talent he has shown the villains originally try to recruit the main character into their group as an Apprentice. The combat situation arises when he refuses and they wish to eliminate the competition before it becomes a true threat and so try to kill him instead.

My reasoning:

In many ancient, and a few modern(though isolated), cultures age 13 is considered the beginning of adulthood and a man is supposed to begin living on their own, holding a job(hunter/gatherer/farmer/soldier), and even getting married between then and 15. Apprenticeships started even earlier. This is why I didn't think of it as too young.

Sooo... What is your opinion of an appropriate age for a new hero?

*EDIT*

Since people keep coming back to my idea and either putting it down based on limited info or asking questions about it so they know where I'm coming from...

Spoiler

I've said it before and I'll say it again. My game idea was just ONE EXAMPLE, intended to be ONE AMONG MANY as people gave their own examples to support their own viewpoints.

For those who want to make more of it, I never claimed the rough concept wasn't cliche, it is the details that make it good or bad though. A well done cliche can still be entertaining. If you don't believe this, then just don't play it. Nobody is forcing you.

I'll try to address the points that people keep bringing up one more time, but all at once this time instead of spreading it out as people ask. Not that it is likely to be noticed past the next post though.

Killing is a last resort reserved for bosses who WON'T surrender or retreat, or the main character if the badguys get a hold of him.

The only swords used in the game are lightweight fencing foils, not heavier swords. Most (though not all) weaponry is upgraded sports, and chemistry lab, equipment. 

There is no heavy metal armor at all.

As to the story: Apprenticeships routinely began during what we would now consider to be early childhood. The STORY itself takes place in the modern world, but revolves around an unusual (late)APPRENTICESHIP and the consequences thereof.

He has basically shown a talent for magic by successfully casting an (apprentice-level) spell with only book-study, no actual guidance. The badguys want him as THEIR apprentice, he has refused them. So instead he has, as his master, the newly awakened magical artifact that was only intended as a teaching TOOL, not a teacher in its own right. The badguys don't want him being raised in such a way that would result in him becoming a future competitor for their group and want him dead instead.

 

[Blindga]

You shouldn't let standards limit yourself. As long as you are respectful and logical it shouldn't matter what age the hero is. The age of the hero is as according to the story you write.

The problem some people have with younger heroes is that they often defy what is expected because consideration is not given to what age actually means. Youth implies energy, which could make for a fun protagonist, but experience and emotional strength only come with age. Situations can motivate a young character into an adventure, but most people wouldn't have heroic ideals and strong enough emotions to adventure on their own during their early teenage years. When you try to force them onto such a character it comes off as really, really cheesy, and it can make it hard to relate to or accept the character as real. There are exceptions. If it's a fantastical setting there aren't many things you can't make up exceptions for. But there are limits to what a reader will believe. it's a very tricky situation, and one I believe is best avoided unless you are an informed expert writer who knows what they are doing.

The fact that you aren't totally certain at this point tells me that you should think twice about this.

I won't say I'm right, but if I had to put a magic number on it I would say the youngest a protagonist should be for an adventure story is fifteen. I think at around fifteen and sixteen is when a person really starts to develop their adult emotional strengths and weaknesses, and become more of a mature and stable person. Thus more likely to have realistic reaons for going on an adventure and having the physical and mental capability to survive the ordeal.  Again, I can't say I'm right, but that's what I feel personally.

 

[Paladin-Cleric of Awesome]

Depends. I think if you have a game less combat related you can have younger heroes.

I know I personally don't like seeing kids in games running round killing.

Personally I'd like an older hero. 19-40 to play, most of my characters in my games where combat is a big thing tend to be over 18, for my own comfort.

But it all depends on how your story will work, and how you want to tell it, and what you are comfortable writing a child into.

 

[Redeye]

Usually i'd like the Lead character to be in his/her 20s or something, and the side characters can be anything else.

In some traditional Tales games, the entire party consisted of...

A lead character in his early adulthood

A love interest usually younger than the lead character

An older character who is around his/her 30s

An even older person, usually and old man, in his 50s or so

A young child, most likely 13 or slightly older

At least a character that is about the same age as the lead character

 

[Cadh20000]

Well, without making this about my project specifically (which I'm not supposed to in this subforum) it is kinda hard to respond to your concerns/opinions but I'll try my best.

You shouldn't let standards limit yourself. As long as you are respectful and logical it shouldn't matter what age the hero is. The age of the hero is as according to the story you write.

The problem some people have with younger heroes is that they often defy what is expected because consideration is not given to what age actually means. Youth implies energy, which could make for a fun protagonist, but experience and emotional strength only come with age. Situations can motivate a young character into an adventure, but most people wouldn't have heroic ideals and strong enough emotions to adventure on their own during their early teenage years. When you try to force them onto such a character it comes off as really, really cheesy, and it can make it hard to relate to or accept the character as real. There are exceptions. If it's a fantastical setting there aren't many things you can't make up exceptions for. But there are limits to what a reader will believe. it's a very tricky situation, and one I believe is best avoided unless you are an informed expert writer who knows what they are doing.

The fact that you aren't totally certain at this point tells me that you should think twice about this.

I won't say I'm right, but if I had to put a magic number on it I would say the youngest a protagonist should be for an adventure story is fifteen. I think at around fifteen and sixteen is when a person really starts to develop their adult emotional strengths and weaknesses, and become more of a mature and stable person. Thus more likely to have realistic reaons for going on an adventure and having the physical and mental capability to survive the ordeal.  Again, I can't say I'm right, but that's what I feel personally.

Spoiler

As to being an "informed expert writer"... Well, I have never even tried to get published... YET... but I have been writing fantasy-fiction for nearly 20 years now. My characters have ranged from age 2 through age 40(+/-) and all have had a lot of praise, even from a few published authors(the main problem with publishing is the fact the majority of the stories are only 8~30 pages long)

"Not totally certain at this point"? I would say that I was until people started complaining about the ages. So I explained my personal reasoning and listed precedences in our real world's history and asked if they still felt that way. Now I wait for feedback with the knowledge that changing the age-range for the characters means rewriting the ENTIRE story to FIT another age range, but that it is fully possible if players would be turned off by the way things are planned.

So, back on-topic: Your opinion for an appropriate age is 15+?

Depends. I think if you have a game less combat related you can have younger heroes.

I know I personally don't like seeing kids in games running round killing.

Personally I'd like an older hero. 19-40 to play, most of my characters in my games where combat is a big thing tend to be over 18, for my own comfort.

But it all depends on how your story will work, and how you want to tell it, and what you are comfortable writing a child into.

So your opinion of an appropriate age range is 19+?

As to your other concerns, I couldn't think of a way to address them without getting into specifics so I'll just spoiler them and hope that's okay.

Spoiler

The main focus, and roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of the game play, is on the school-life sim aspects of the game and the associated team building/management, skill-learning, and stat-boosting that is done there.

The kids aren't even going out on an adventure willingly, the enemy is coming after them, or rather their leader, specifically and they are just trying to keep him alive. The way it is set up for the heroes is that the only one who could actually die and result in a game over is the main, the rest will simply retreat if defeated. This goes for most of the enemy as well. 1 of the class types even focuses on capturing the enemy instead of "defeating" them

Usually i'd like the Lead character to be in his/her 20s or something, and the side characters can be anything else.

In some traditional Tales games, the entire party consisted of...

A lead character in his early adulthood

A love interest usually younger than the lead character

An older character who is around his/her 30s

An even older person, usually and old man, in his 50s or so

A young child, most likely 13 or slightly older

At least a character that is about the same age as the lead character

So let me get this straight, you think 13+ is okay for party members but the main hero should be older?

 

[Eschaton]

They can be any age as long as the setting and story support it.  When you have the elements in front of you, ask yourself:  "is this believable?  Is there (I love using this word) verisimilitude in my idea?"

Harry Potter could get away with being a young, teenage hero because both the story and setting supported it; he was attending a magic school, and he was the crux of the Dark Lord's ascension or failure, and there were valid reasoning behind everything.

Everyone hated Wesley Crusher because the story and setting didn't support the idea of a 15 year old always succeeding where seasoned Starfleet officers failed, because Gene Wesley Roddenberry like the character for some unknown reason.

 

[Blindga]

As to being an "informed expert writer"... Well, I have never even tried to get published... YET... but I have been writing fantasy-fiction for nearly 20 years now. My characters have ranged from age 2 through age 40(+/-) and all have had a lot of praise, even from a few published authors(the main problem with publishing is the fact the majority of the stories are only 8~30 pages long)
"Not totally certain at this point"? I would say that I was until people started complaining about the ages. So I explained my personal reasoning and listed precedences in our real world's history and asked if they still felt that way. Now I wait for feedback with the knowledge that changing the age-range for the characters means rewriting the ENTIRE story to FIT another age range, but that it is fully possible if players would be turned off by the way things are planned.

So, back on-topic: Your opinion for an appropriate age is 15+?

Well, let me clarify.

By being an expert I do not mean you have to be published. I simply mean do you know what you are doing and are you informed about the topic you are writing about? Not saying that you don't, but rather I wanted you to ask that question to yourself.

About being certain again, it was a question to ask yourself objectively. If you think you are than what else is there to say? I'm not trying to insult your abilities, but rather asking you to be honest with yourself on what you can do and what you are comfortable with regarding young characters. Maybe it was just the way I read it, but it sounded like you were trying to defend an idea you weren't sure about. But if you have been doing this for years and age has never stopped you before than why let it this time?

Just don't let others change your ideas against your will. Not everyone is right. Not even me. As adamant as I am about some things I never demand that I am right. Just go with what you think is best and everything will fall into place.

 

[A-Moonless-Night]

I personally like the idea of playing a character that is at least twenty, but that's just me.

In the medieval ages (I don't really know my history, so I'm embellishing here) or whatever, thirteen was seen as the age when a person became an adult, but people also died a lot younger, in their late twenties and thirties. That's all fine and good, but nowadays, people generally aren't seen as an adult until at least eighteen to twenty because that's the way our society has developed.

 

[Cadh20000]

About being certain again, it was a question to ask yourself objectively. If you think you are than what else is there to say? I'm not trying to insult your abilities, but rather asking you to be honest with yourself on what you can do and what you are comfortable with regarding young characters. Maybe it was just the way I read it, but it sounded like you were trying to defend an idea you weren't sure about. But if you have been doing this for years and age has never stopped you before than why let it this time?

I usually write for myself, everyone else's opinion is secondary. But when making a game it is different... I actually care what others think right from the start, I want to make something that people would actually want to play. If I was just doing it for myself alone I wouldn't even care whether it got made, just as long as I had fun designing it.

I personally like the idea of playing a character that is at least twenty, but that's just me.

In the medieval ages (I don't really know my history, so I'm embellishing here) or whatever, thirteen was seen as the age when a person became an adult, but people also died a lot younger, in their late twenties and thirties. That's all fine and good, but nowadays, people generally aren't seen as an adult until at least eighteen to twenty because that's the way our society has developed.

So your opinion of a good age range is 20+?

 

[deilin]

Like others said, the story itself determines how well anything fits.

A fantasy could support a younger hero if:

Heritage. The child learned to fight because they are noble and taught to, of even poor and had to learn how to defend themself (usually someone in family knew how too fight, or family friend.)

No choice: circumstances of survival.

Slave/gladiator/prisoner. Forced to fight against your will.

In old days, many children were considered adult at 13. Could marry and have children. Unless a hardcore game like battlefield, most games tend to age heros 19 - 30.

 

[Cadh20000]

Like others said, the story itself determines how well anything fits.

A fantasy could support a younger hero if:

Heritage. The child learned to fight because they are noble and taught to, of even poor and had to learn how to defend themself (usually someone in family knew how too fight, or family friend.)

No choice: circumstances of survival.

Slave/gladiator/prisoner. Forced to fight against your will.

In old days, many children were considered adult at 13. Could marry and have children. Unless a hardcore game like battlefield, most games tend to age heros 19 - 30.

How about average modern middle-schooler who has the (mis)fortune to find a (300+yr old) family heirloom: a magical artifact that is designed to bond to its user and teach them to be a powerful spellcaster, even if it kills them in the process? And no adult will believe them about the magic without having their face shoved in it(except the villains who say "If you're not with us you're against us, and if you're against us we will kill you before you can become a threat").

 

[Eschaton]

Well, I gave honest advice, now I'm going to snark:

A JRPG/RPG Maker Game with a kid hero is like a guy from Long Island being 'roided out, his hair gelled up, and wearing too many gold chains.  Tediously stereotypical and cliched.

No amount of justification can undo that kind of image.

The more you know...

 

[orochii]

I think the culture standards have an impact on this. For example, in medieval times, let's be honest, life was harder. Children had to grow faster because there was the necessity. Same for years prior to the 20th century or so (our children are too weak! ahaha). If there is a necessity on the setting, these "heroes" will be accustomed to it, like being ready for risks, or thinking in a proper/"mature" manner.

There is also the experiences this heroic character has. Learning to fight on his youth. Having to take care of his/her family because his parent died, and his/her other parent needed some help, maybe because of illness. Or being a complete orphan, no parents, no siblings, nothing, and living on the streets. Thing is that the most common kind of heroes we get from jRPGs are grandma's boys that learn to fight in this specific tutorial battle against this complete incompetent henchman.

So, any age is fine, as long as there is some explanation. No more of those genius people, those are the most cheesy of all. "This guy pops from a farm and defeats this legendary evilness". Neeeeh... seems too lazy.

No more lazy legends or instant superpowers,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[Cadh20000]

Alright, I tried to make the thread to address a general question and just used my own idea as an example, but since almost everyone has answered the question then gone on to at least seem to address my game idea directly it is turning more and more into a thread ABOUT the idea. I guess I should make an actual separate thread about the game idea even though it is still in the very early stages to address these.

Well, I gave honest advice, now I'm going to snark:

A JRPG/RPG Maker Game with a kid hero is like a guy from Long Island being 'roided out, his hair gelled up, and wearing too many gold chains.  Tediously stereotypical and cliched.

No amount of justification can undo that kind of image.

The more you know...

All I can say in answer is that cliches BECAME cliches because they work for the majority of people. Not all people, but the majority.

I think the culture standards have an impact on this. For example, in medieval times, let's be honest, life was harder. Children had to grow faster because there was the necessity. Same for years prior to the 20th century or so (our children are too weak! ahaha). If there is a necessity on the setting, these "heroes" will be accustomed to it, like being ready for risks, or thinking in a proper/"mature" manner.

There is also the experiences this heroic character has. Learning to fight on his youth. Having to take care of his/her family because his parent died, and his/her other parent needed some help, maybe because of illness. Or being a complete orphan, no parents, no siblings, nothing, and living on the streets. Thing is that the most common kind of heroes we get from jRPGs are grandma's boys that learn to fight in this specific tutorial battle against this complete incompetent henchman.

So, any age is fine, as long as there is some explanation. No more of those genius people, those are the most cheesy of all. "This guy pops from a farm and defeats this legendary evilness". Neeeeh... seems too lazy.

No more lazy legends or instant superpowers,

Orochii Zouveleki

While I'd agree in general with your point,

Spoiler

who said anything about a "lazy legend" or "instant superpowers"? The kid starts out with nothing but an accidental, apprentice-level, spell he cast when trying to play at being a wizard with a real spellbook that he didn't know was real. He doesn't even gain skills by leveling up, but rather by solving special puzzles and accomplishing tasks the book assigns him. Failure to "learn" the spell correctly results in a game over. As to being a "hero", that is simply a term of convenience based on the fact he is the playable character. He certainly wouldn't consider himself one, in fact he merely thinks of it as trying to stay alive as the secret society who rule from the shadows try to eliminate you for turning them down when they tried recruiting you.

 

[Arin]

Bottom line:

Age shouldn't matter if your plot is cohesive enough to support it. Obviously stuff like depicting child labor is a no-no, but you know what I mean.

 

[orochii]

While I'd agree in general with your point, who said anything about a "lazy legend" or "instant superpowers"?

Sorry, maybe I was thinking too much about anime series. *trollface*. --Okay in all seriousness, I wasn't talking about any story in particular, my mind just deviated, happens constantly.

===

Just as a small contribution to the topic, just some weeks ago people were talking about Tales of the Tempest. The story was so-so and blablah. But I after actually taking some time and seeing it for myself, one of the things they made emphasis at some point (and never actually referred to btw, IIRC) was that the character knew to fight because his father taught him (no more on the subject to avoid spoilers). This is a method, but you wonder why the father considers teaching his son about sword-fighting. Well, if you know more about the story you maybe get your answers but I'm not here to spoil... cough.

Same with an academy. Things with academies is giving them more importance than "this is a failed attempt of X for becoming a hero". Wait, forget what I said, that could be funny.

But anyway, thinking about the reason, and those reasons being reasonable. Also there is the option of making your character grow at some part of the story (start at 13, pass some time, then it is 2X/3X, or even more). An anime citation here, Shingeki no Kiojin: story starts with the characters being children, things occur, they get emotional, and this makes them take a certain decision.

Another example from RPGs would be Breath of Fire 2. It also starts with the main being a child, and growing later (more like an introduction).

Anyway, there is a lot of ways to handle character's ages,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[A-Moonless-Night]

I think in this day and age, (older) people are less likely to respect a younger character, especially one that learns new powers and skills in such a short period of time. It is really cliché. That's not to say that cliché is inherently bad, but it becomes predictable, and while that's fine in certain cases, it all depends on how well you write the story/game. That particular cliché has been done to death. But hey, it's your game and you can do what you want.

 

[Paladin-Cleric of Awesome]

On a more general note, if I was making a modern game, I would look to anime for my inspiration,

Card captor is a fun show, with young heroes, and I can watch it without cringing about children doing out of character violent things because the setting allows what hey do, their collecting cards and nothing too terrible ever happens and there's nothing to traumatise them.

Something like gundam wing, the main characters are fifteen, enjoyable ad while I was fifteen their ages were totally fine, they were saving the world from evil, looking back and Rewatching at twenty seven I think to myself, no, kids should not be doing that kind of thing, but the story around them makes thei involvement close enough to realistic, so while it makes me uncomfortable to think of teens in that kind of situation, I can accept it.

Then you look at anime like saiyuki, or technoman or others, and as the level of combat and violent acts increase they get older still, everyone is over 18.

Young characters can be fine, provided their in appropriate settings and are doing appropriate things. Eg (if I can mention my own games), I have festival of Souls where the main character is 5, but it is a non combat stealth system, because I couldn't justify to myself having a five year old running around killing things, and again in Ghost house my characters are seven and nine, but the story is more exploration with one battle, but its explained why they have to fight, and its not about killing, but exorcising an evil spirit.

It also depends on who you intend to play the game, older people, like me, might not like to see a game where a kid of 13 kills other people or gets pushed into situations they aren't ready for, but someone who is 12 or 13 would find this awesome and enjoy it.

So it's personal choice, what you feel comfortable with and who you are targeting to play it. (I mean that generally, not specifically at your game)

 

[Archeia]

In old days, many children were considered adult at 13. Could marry and have children. Unless a hardcore game like battlefield, most games tend to age heros 19 - 30.

Well not exactly. You don't need to be in a war torn battlefield to have a young hero. In many poverty-stricken countries, children at the age of 6~10 are already working and supporting the family. And they do extremely hard labor work. People at the age of 12 also move out of their hometowns to work on the big city. So yeah.

 

Bottom line:

Age shouldn't matter if your plot is cohesive enough to support it. Obviously stuff like depicting child labor is a no-no, but you know what I mean.

 

Depends on your definition of child labor. Try living in a place called Philippines or a third world country and see if that fits your definition. :s

While there are people who do use child labor for very minimal wages to none, some -are- forced to act as adults at a very young age because of many other factors.

 

Some true life examples, when a mother goes crazy (it happens a lot in provincial areas) and abandoned their children. And usually their fathers are not around (e.g. drunkards, soldiers, dead) and the eldest, usually 13, ends up being the mother. And they also deliver logs from the mountains on a 3 hrs walk, so it means 6 hrs just trekking, getting there, grab wood. It doesn't count coming back. And they have to try their best not to ruin the wood or they get no money. At most they get $1~$2.

 

The father lost all will to live and abandons the children and the mother gets a heart attack. All of their children were forced to drop school since 0 money and got separated to live, etc.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that, if the story demands it, don't be afraid to show it off. The only thing that's maybe super sensitive is slavery towards certain people but...eh. There's always people who get sensitive towards real life events and it's understandable but... :<

 

[mdcdeve]

Indeed some get married very young, some are also doing hard labour. But that isn't by their own choice, can't say i've seen a hero storyline that involves a 13 year old in an arranged marriage forced into hard labour before. They would really need to be at least 16-18 to make it believable and for them to be making competant decisions that effect the storyline, any younger and they are merely controlled by adults.