How to make a 3d rendered game Vertigo Friendly.

TheGreatEater

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Now I just found out that my sister in law [who I want to be able to share this game with] has vertigo. And after learning a bit about it, and thinking that it wouldn't be fair to make something that not everyone has the chance to enjoy [hopefully without sacrificing to much of my visual aesthetics]. I was thinking.

How do you make a 3d rendered game Vertigo friendly? 

From what little I read. I saw such things, as Max Resolution and high frame rate [two biggest problems with those with Vertigo from what I read from sufferers of that]. 

As well as a fixed camera [since a free movement one is another biggie]. 

Both of which I don't think there'd be a problem with in RPG Maker VX Ace and IG Maker. But what other things should I take into consideration? Since I'll admit I am very ignorant of the subject and want to make things that as many people can enjoy as possible [if that particular genre I produce in is up there alley that is].
 

Lunarea

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Perspective is another big one. The standard RTP perspective isn't too bad, but I've played several games that go for a stylized look and a slightly skewed perspective that can feel very dizzying. So, if you're going for an original art style, keep the perspective fairly consistent and somewhat shallow. :)
 

TheGreatEater

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Define shallow? And I can keep it consistent. That's a definite. 

What about parallax maps or animated tiles [well very few places with animated tiles]? I was thinking about a moving arrow like floor pattern that'd point out a various paths / rooms (kind of like a guide], but using a rather steady [water like] flow that isn't to fast, or to slow. But steady in the intro chapter. And in the main game the occasional breezy tree / moon movements. Would that also cause problems? If so I can easily not do that. 
 

sabao

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This is for an RM game, yeah? Definitely frame rate. I'm not entirely sure there's a way to control that. You may also want to look into how the camera scrolls as the player moves. There used to be a smooth camera scroll script or something to that effect floating around that minimizes the movement of the camera following the player.

What kind of 3D project are you making, exactly? This is the first time I've heard anyone get motion sickness from an RM game. The usual suspects are FPS games or third person games with cameras following closely from behind.
 

TheGreatEater

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If it's about frame rate. Then I'll need to move my project into IG Maker then [it has a control frame rate option], and the game [if I can make it the way I'd like] is going to be an Action RPG. But yeah, while I want to work with RPG Maker VX ACE [might have to find the right project for it], IG Maker would be the best to control the Frames / Sec in a game. 

So rendered with max resolution, high fps [what is a good frame per second rate? atm I have it set to 17 frames per second.], and always ensure that the camera is either at a set location on the screen? 

Are games like http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Persona_4, and http://atelier.wikia.com/wiki/Mana_Khemia:_Alchemists_of_Al-Revis problematic? I ask because I don't have vertigo, but with finding that my sister in law, as well as a friend of theirs has it. And what it does when they play certain games, I want to try limiting that problem (although I do like a downwards, fixed third person perceptive [like in the above games]) I'm willing to move to a different perspective if it'd be better for other players. But seeing as I don't have that problem, I thought I'd ask. That way I can make a visually appealing (and hopefully fun for others) game, but won't trigger their vertigo. 
 

sabao

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Have you ever asked your sister-in-law personally about her vertigo? It triggers differently in people so it helps to know the specifics if you're designing something specifically for her. I've honest to god never heard of any case of motion sickness triggered by a game in a top-down view (most RPGs). Unless you're positive that is the case for her, I'm having trouble believing it's even possible.
 

Ralpf

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Have you ever asked your sister-in-law personally about her vertigo? It triggers differently in people so it helps to know the specifics if you're designing something specifically for her. I've honest to god never heard of any case of motion sickness triggered by a game in a top-down view (most RPGs). Unless you're positive that is the case for her, I'm having trouble believing it's even possible.
It is far more uncommon than the problem people have with 3D first-person games. But I have heard it before, I think you were right when you mentioned frame rate, bad frame rate is a common problem that can give people vertigo/nausea regardless of perspective.
 

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I get very motion sick with a lot of games.  It frustrates me to no end because I'd love to play Portal and Minecraft and other games that make me extremely ill.  If you've got a fixed camera you're probably not going to need to worry about motion sickness.  The only game that had a fixed camera that has ever made me ill was Terraria.  Well, Zelda Link Between Worlds made me a little loopy if I left the  3D on too long but that's technically a different type of camera.  High framerate helps.  Unrealstic 3D helps, so going for a low fidelity or highly stylized look.  The environment that I'm playing the game in makes a difference too, basically I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm too immersed or straining my eyes.

I'm glad you're taking the time to try and make a game for people like me.  We tend to either be ignored by the gaming community or told to get over it or go away.
 

sabao

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Sorry, poor choice of words. I probably shouldn't discount the possibility, but the details are too vague to determine possible causes. Most of these cases usually happen in 3D games and the only possible thing I see could be a cause is the camera scroll, which depending on what hardware you're running the game on and how many things you have processing at one time, gets pretty choppy when moving around.

I really want to get to the root of this myself. We built a color matching game that we're updating so the colorblind can play it. Any information we can glean from this can help us design games to reach as much people as possible.
 
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TheGreatEater

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Have you ever asked your sister-in-law personally about her vertigo? It triggers differently in people so it helps to know the specifics if you're designing something specifically for her. I've honest to god never heard of any case of motion sickness triggered by a game in a top-down view (most RPGs). Unless you're positive that is the case for her, I'm having trouble believing it's even possible.
Honestly I don't know myself. From what my brother said, it's 3d movement. I'll have to talk to her personally about it. Btw, what frame rate is a high one? In IG Maker you can set the frame rate personally. So that'd be good to know a good range to work with ^_^.

It is far more uncommon than the problem people have with 3D first-person games. But I have heard it before, I think you were right when you mentioned frame rate, bad frame rate is a common problem that can give people vertigo/nausea regardless of perspective.
My game is going to be [hopefully] 3rd person perspective [with a camera fixed over the left shoulder, rather than top down]. But I really need to find a good frame rate, and with IG Maker the character's move in frames. I can really control and watch the movements so that it's as smooth as possible.

I get very motion sick with a lot of games.  It frustrates me to no end because I'd love to play Portal and Minecraft and other games that make me extremely ill.  If you've got a fixed camera you're probably not going to need to worry about motion sickness.  The only game that had a fixed camera that has ever made me ill was Terraria.  Well, Zelda Link Between Worlds made me a little loopy if I left the  3D on too long but that's technically a different type of camera.  High framerate helps.  Unrealstic 3D helps, so going for a low fidelity or highly stylized look.  The environment that I'm playing the game in makes a difference too, basically I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm too immersed or straining my eyes.

I'm glad you're taking the time to try and make a game for people like me.  We tend to either be ignored by the gaming community or told to get over it or go away.
You're welcome ^_^. When I make something, I try to make it so as many people who want to enjoy it can. So I have no problem looking for ways to make a good 3d experience, that everyone can enjoy. And I can do the unrealistic (Since the setting is a technically alien AU [both in the CoF [the equine sprites I've been showing] and PoB [more human/anthropomorphic], I can get away with some rather stylized aesthetics.

But yeah, when I get landscape / character art. I'll post and ping you. See if anything needs to be fixed so that you and others with that problem aren't bothered by it visually ^_^.

Sorry, poor choice of words. I probably shouldn't discount the possibility, but the details are too vague to determine possible causes. Most of these cases usually happen in 3D games and the only possible thing I see could be a cause is the camera scroll, which depending on what hardware you're running the game on and how many things you have processing at one time, gets pretty choppy when moving around.

I really want to get to the root of this myself. We built a color matching game that we're updating so the colorblind can play it. Any information we can glean from this can help us design games to reach as much people as possible.
Yeah sorry for the vagueness. I wasn't given much info, so I thought that I might as well get as many different ways to help as possible. [i've already taken epileptics into consideration (no strobing or fast blinking lights), but until recently I thought Vertigo was something that only effected people when moving. So now I'll be working with that in mind as well.]

As for the color matching game. Why not add symbols to particular colors? That way the color blind, while (depending on severity) might not be able to  see the color type itself. Seeing a symbol would be a good mental  cue. Although this link  might be helpful to you as well.
 

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I didn't mean the environment of the game world, I meant my personal environment in the real world.  Things like sitting far enough away from the computer and having good ambient lighting.
 

TheGreatEater

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Ah! I read about that when looking around the web for useful tips.
 

sabao

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Oh yeah we've already implemented the idea actually and it's worked just fine. How do you intend to simulate 3D? Prerendered models? Isometrics? The primary cause of vertigo would be the camera so if you're maintaining a camera view that's close to what a 2D game might have I think you'd be okay?

Here are resources on the topic:

http://kotaku.com/5869607/how-motion-sickness-can-ruin-games-and-the-meds-used-to-fight-it

http://xbox.about.com/od/buyersguide/a/vgmosick.htm

I remember reading one specifically written for game designers but can't seem to find it anymore.
 
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TheGreatEater

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I'm moving all my 2d Sprites to Blender, making them 3d, then rendering that into a PNG File. The setting is either going to be Isometric [i like the aesthetics], and whatever this style is:



 

sabao

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That would be pre-rendering, much like how most games were handled in the PS1 era. Games of that time didn't really require that much camera movement at least so I think you're in the clear on that end. If it's going to be an RPG you could probably still pull it off on RPG Maker.
 
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TheGreatEater

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I was thinking about that [that was the original plan], but IG Maker allows me to control all aspects of animation, and greater graphical control. As well as the ability to control frame rate, and where the camera position is fixed in RPG Maker, I can move it to where I need it in IG Maker [at least that's how it's looking atm]. Which for the games I'm making will be more appealing to me personally. [Really that's my only two main gripes. 1) I can't control all graphics through the animation tab, and B) it's top down, with out any script that I know of to change where the camera is anchored. The Frame Rate problem is a new one for me, but RPG Maker has that hard coded as well for the most part.]

That and I can save it as a Flash [opening it up for more players], as well as an XNA [and my computer tech who was fixing up my stuff, said Microsoft is making a patch to allow a computer [well a Microsoft computer] to connect to XBox, add in the backwards compatibility patch that he said was rumored to be coming out [all sometime next month], that's an even greater range of people I can connect with. It'll just require me to save and export it multiple times for the greater range of consumers / players. [Not to mention that I can make a game for any screen size in IG Maker.] But it'll be worth it.

Edit:

Actually it turns out that the Flash function [from what the tutorials say] is attrociously buggy, and sucks. So that still leaves XNA, and regular EXE. Still, I'm more in it for how I can control every bit of graphics through animations [something RPG Maker lacks], and can get my camera to be at the angle that'd best work for the game itself [even if Enterbrain hasn't really updated or fine tuned the system yet. Or as well as they did with the RPG Maker series.]
 
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sabao

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Can't say I've tried IGM, but go with whatever works better for your vision. Just make sure you do ask your sister-in-law what triggers her vertigo to be sure though.
 

Ralpf

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For frame rate, most monitors refresh at 60 Hz, so as long as your game is stable at 60 fps you should be OK in that regard. Did a little bit of research. Since you are going for an isometric perspective these next two may not factor in, but for first person or very close 3rd person don't put in camera bob (that is annoying to me anyway, though I don't have this issue) and put a reticle in the center of the screen.

Also dimmer screens seem to help, but that would be on her end, not yours.
 

TheGreatEater

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I'll work on making sure it's stable at 60 fps, and I'll ensure no camera bobbing. 

@Saboa, I'll definitely ask her. 
 

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