How to make skills more useful?

[Mr. Detective]

Hi guys,

I am thinking about how to make the battle system in my game more fun and balanced. Basically, normal attacks in my game are very weak and useless. The players must use special skills to defeat the enemies, and since that's the case, MP are automatically restored after every battle. This creates a few problems with the game: What is the point of using weaker skills with less MP cost?

For example, at level 3, the MC has 4 skills: A, B, C, D.

- Skill A is the weakest, it only hits one target, and also cost the least MP.

- Skill B is stronger, and can target all enemies on the screen. It has a 1 turn cool down and cost more MP than Skill A.

- Skill C is stronger than B, and can also target all enemies on the screen. It has a 2 turn cool down and cost more MP than Skill B.

- Skill D is the strongest, but it can only hit one target, and has a 2 turn cool down and cost more MP than Skill B but less than Skill C.

So, what is the point of using Skill A at all? Since MP is fully restored, and MP won't ever be an issue in normal battle, the game is pretty unbalanced. What can I do to make battles more interesting, while still keeping the MP system as it is?

 

[Kes]

You could try adding speed modifiers in so that the player has to choose between using a weak spell which is effective before the enemy has its turn, or a stronger spell which will only take effect afterwards, with all the danger inherent in that.

By "speed modifier" I mean that part of the skill page where it has Invocation - Speed.  Put a negative figure in that box.

 

[Mr. Detective]

That's probably not much better, but I'll take your suggestion.

Anyone else?

 

[Zoltor]

How about making weaker skills/spells have an added effect on top of just damage, like a status effect or whatnot.

Also you can always have spell power or whatnot, just scale to the user's lv, so It's always useful.

 

[omen613]

I personally like to make every skill useful in someway....and creating synergy 

random ideas

Skill A: does more damage than a regular hit, does double damage if foe is inflicted with state X.

Skill B: Does more damage then skill A, but not as much as skill A doing double damage, has a 30% chance to inflict state X

Skill C: Drains MP from a foe, drains MP and HP if foe has state X....removes state X from foe after maybe?

 

[mlogan]

I have played some games where certain skills have varying effects depending on the type of enemy. A real simple example would be a water spell does more damage to a fire enemy than an ice enemy or something.  That way, while Skill A may not be super effective against all enemies, there are certain ones that you are going to keep wanting to use it against.

 

[Mr. Detective]

These are all Wind-based skills, so it's a bit harder to add status elements to them.

Skill A: does more damage than a regular hit, does double damage if foe is inflicted with state X.

Skill B: Does more damage then skill A, but not as much as skill A doing double damage, has a 30% chance to inflict state X

Skill C: Drains MP from a foe, drains MP and HP if foe has state X....removes state X from foe after maybe?

30% is quite a lot... In general, I sorta get the basics of what you are saying. But still, Skill D completely outmatched Skill A in every way. Same goes for Skill C and B, except B has a faster cool down. But in battle, with the other members, enemies won't last very long for them to make such a difference.

Was this a bad idea/decision?

 

[Kes]

If it's going to be a full MP heal after each and every battle, it's difficult to see how, at least in normal encounters, you are going to dissuade players from just spamming their most powerful skill.  Unless, of course, you put a penalty on them.  For example, the powerful skill also saps the character's HP (after all, they are using up a lot of 'energy' to cast it); that way they are more at risk of being knocked out by an enemy hit.  You could make it a significant drop in HP so that it becomes a genuine high risk strategy to use those spells.  Or casting it puts a significant debuff on the user (do that via the damage formula) e.g. their MDF is halved.

 

[omen613]

These are all Wind-based skills, so it's a bit harder to add status elements to them.

30% is quite a lot... In general, I sorta get the basics of what you are saying. But still, Skill D completely outmatched Skill A in every way. Same goes for Skill C and B, except B has a faster cool down. But in battle, with the other members, enemies won't last very long for them to make such a difference.

Was this a bad idea/decision?

With the synergy of all the skills using that state...i don't think 30% is all that bad, especially if you want shorter battles. If your doing an upgrade system like Fire Fire2 Fire3 where the new skill makes the old skill obsolete then making skill A weak but the fist skill they learn isn't that bad an idea. But I'm personally a fan of making all skills valuable from start to end game by making new skills build onto older ones.

 

[Mr. Detective]

Taking all these into consideration. Anymore suggestion?

 

[Ravenith]

You could make MP limited, and have weaker skills that also RESTORE the user's MP. It's a feature widely used in Sonny, a flash RPG. You should check it out, just google it.

 

[Mr. Detective]

Then perhaps, instead of recovering full MP, I will make it recover maybe about 50% or so . I think Tales Of Xillia has something similar like this. The beginning of the game is simple enough, so the players might not have to worry about conserving MP yet.

I am unsure about having weak skills that restore MP. That way, the player can both do a decent damage and still gain MP. This means the skill won't cost you anything, and doesn't have any consequence. It sorta decreases the need for MP restoring item. Maybe I could switch that to normal attack or guard, but as pathetically weak as it is, I am concerned that the players will get frustrated.

Is it bad game design? I think recovering 50% MP after a battle is quite a lot, so maybe we don't need to have skills that increase MP? Maybe guard and normal attack should be the only way to increase MP?

At least we are getting somewhere.

 

[Gilsev]

What about having one character with the ability to add a state to an ally, or the whole party, which inverts the MP cost for attacks? Meaning that while state X is active the attack which normally costs 10 MP will instead restore 10 MP.

Either that or have the MP recovery be based off missing MP at the end of the fight. You could include that some abilities have a different effect outside combat which would give a slightly tactical ability use to your game. Adding effects based on which state (if any) is applied to an enemy can make weaker attacks have long lasting effect in games. If you are feeling like having quite a bit of fun you could have attacks/abilities that have a different effect when used on an ally.

If at any point you question why the player would use an ability, the player will question it as well.

 

[Kyutaru]

One way to prevent MP dump is skill WARMUPS.  You can download Yanfly's Skill Restriction script to make use of them.

The problem of "Mega Skills" is common in most collectible card games like Magic the Gathering.  How card games solve the problem is by using resource costs.  The resources replenish every turn, just as your MP will replenish every battle, however you can't play 9 resources on turn 1.  Building up enough resources to cast the Mega Death Dragon is going to take some time, giving weaker cards with 1-2 cost an actual purpose and meaning.

My favorite net game currently is Rise of Mythos and it's a turn-based action card game where you summon creatures to the field.  However, each creature has a turn cooldown on it that must elapse before it can be summoned.  Short cooldown creatures can zerg your opponent before he gets defenses up.  There is something similar in Naruto the CCG with turn entrance costs, and even the new Hearthstone game has a steady build up of resources so that players have to compete for early game advantages before playing their trump cards.

My suggestion therefore is this... have Skill A not have a warmup cost at all (or a cooldown afterward).  This means you can use skill A at the very start of battle.  Skill D might have a warmup cost of 3 turns, so you can only use it if the battle has gone on for a while.  This also presents an interesting dilemma for the players... do they waste all their MP casting Skill A over and over again, or do they save their MP for 3 turns to cast Skill D for super effectiveness?  Casting Skill A over and over can erradicate some enemies sooner, reducing the overall damage your team takes.  Damage might be something you don't want to take because perhaps the next save point is very far away.  In this case, saving up for Skill D would result in granting the monsters 3 full turns of attacking your team relentlessly.

An alternative, and another Yanfly script, is to implement chain skills.  Skill A becomes a prerequisite for casting Skill D.  Skill A can be your "Opener" ability that starts the chain and Skill D can be your "Finisher" ability that ends it.  So as you pummel enemies with weaker skills, you unlock stronger skills for next turn.

 

[TheRiotInside]

A small way to try to make all of your skills more useful in general is to make them varied. Having a magic-based character that has an offensive fire/water/lightning spell will quickly devolve into the unfortunate "cast water if enemy is fire, otherwise cast fire" situation that becomes repetitive for some players very quickly. If a character has more than one offensive skill, give them secondary effects, or tactical benefits beyond element weakness/resistance. Maybe your fire spell can inflict a burn DoT effect, while an ice spell can slow down speedy enemies. Even simple things like that can really help if they are made useful within the constrains of your battle system as a whole. In that example, if speed didn't really matter, then the incentive to use the ice spell over the fire one is lost.

What I'm saying is give your skills variety in their effects, but also make sure that the effects are useful enough to give players incentive to think about their actions. It's tricky business making a nice, balanced battle experience.

 

[gcook725]

Then perhaps, instead of recovering full MP, I will make it recover maybe about 50% or so . I think Tales Of Xillia has something similar like this. The beginning of the game is simple enough, so the players might not have to worry about conserving MP yet.

I am unsure about having weak skills that restore MP. That way, the player can both do a decent damage and still gain MP. This means the skill won't cost you anything, and doesn't have any consequence. It sorta decreases the need for MP restoring item. Maybe I could switch that to normal attack or guard, but as pathetically weak as it is, I am concerned that the players will get frustrated.

Is it bad game design? I think recovering 50% MP after a battle is quite a lot, so maybe we don't need to have skills that increase MP? Maybe guard and normal attack should be the only way to increase MP?

At least we are getting somewhere.

No, it isn't bad game design. Not always. However if you are having all the characters recover all of their mana after battle, then each character should be expected to use most, if not all of their mana in any particular battle, otherwise its not really a resource the player would have to worry about.Its all about finding out a proper balance. About how long are battles? Are the quick and easy? If so, are there occasional battles that aren't so quick?

If your encounters tend to be over in a few turns or so, then expect each character to run out of their respective resource in about that much time plus a couple turns. The difficult part of this tends to come around when around boss battles or other very long battles.

My best suggestion for these involve some way to recover their resource... and this is where you can get creative with your characters. Perhaps a tank regenerates mana based on damage taken, a healer regenerates mana slowly after using a certain skill, a bursty mage has to "recharge" his mana for a turn or two, during which they cannot act, and a gunslinger has to reload their firearm which is instant but can only be done every so many times in a battle. In most encounters it wouldn't matter, but in longer, lengthier battles it could lead to a lot of strategic decision: Restore the character's resource now, or wait until they're completely drained and hope that they won't need their mana during the time they can't cast?

Personally I like to use a lot of different or otherwise unique resource systems that are always renewable in some way. One of my favorites that I've designed recently is a system where the character can have up to 100 MP but starts each battle at 50. If he has above 50 MP, his spells have one effect and costs MP while if he's below 50 MP they have a completely different effect and will instead give him MP.

Personally, I dislike the common resource systems and how MP is usually used in your typical JRPG. Its designed to whittle down your HP and MP slowly over a long dungeon where its dwellers pretty much just enter a war of attrition with you. As such individual battles mean almost nothing by themselves, rather its the hundreds you had to deal with on the way to your goal that have had some cumulative effect. Unique resource systems and resources that recover after battle in some fashion help to avoid this because it actually allows the developers to create more difficult and interesting encounters, rather than just reskinned auto-attackers which die in one or two turns.

 

[Mike]

Credit to Touhou Terminology:

There are 2 types of damage based on range. Focus and Spread.

Focus deals more damage than spread, while spread deals more range than focus.

If you are building 4 skill types for damages, the generic 'backbone' would be:

Pattern 1

A : Weak Focus

B : Weak Spread

C : Strong Focus

D : Strong Spread

Pattern 2

A : Weak Spread

B : Weak Focus

C : Strong Spread

D : Strong Focus

 

Pattern 3

 

A : Weak Focus

B : Strong Focus

C : Weak Spread

D : Strong Spread

 

Pattern 4

 

A : Weak Spread

B : Strong Spread

C : Weak Focus

D : Strong Focus

 

 

A bit of twist would be making the weakest skill to have a counter, whenever the skill is activated, the counter increases by certain number, when the number reach certain level, the player may activate a unique command / skill.

 

Another twist would be having 'skill exp', as you use the skill, the exp of the skill increases, the weaker the skill, the easier for it to lvl up.

 

Or have a skill customization option, where you can trade skill exp to boost up or enable desired parameter of the skill (whoops, I leaked out a bit too much of my game ideas). : p

 

[Julien Brightside]

What if skill A costs so little in term of magic that the user can attack twice in a row,

Whereas skill D cost so much that the user have to skip a turn.

 

[Milennin]

Or do away with fully restoring the player's MP at the start of every battle, and instead have the weaker skills regen a bit of MP when they're used. That way the player will be forced into using the weaker spells in order to get enough mana to use their stronger spells.