How to reward your players?

[ScorchedGround]

Right. Since my demo is a browser game, I do drive on views. The more plays I get each day, the higher I end up in the rankings on Itch. So when my players return daily for the reward, I will quikcly raise to the top most popular games. At least... I hope.

Then, when my demo is getting popular, I hope some of the players will actually play buy the full game

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Well, you don't pay for all games. Some games are just free. And if you buy the game, then enjoying the game is not a reward, it is what you pay for. You can't buy rewards. That is not how rewards work.

I think we are talking semantics here and how someone defines "reward" in this context.
I suppose an alternative argument I could give is that games you need to buy for
money don't necessarily *need* any further rewards.

There is no reason to *hook* a that already paid the full price to play in the first place. They just enjoy the game and move on.

And if the game was good, they might come back from time to time to replay it. But that's not really a concern for the developer anymore whether they replay or not.

 

[JohnDoeNews]

should have said console style. also, yu-gi-oh is the closest to an RPG of the three. moden combat has in app purchases, which likely means you can log in and do a bunch of tasks over a week or month to get one thing someone else spent 4.99 on. GTA V sounds like it's system is like this galaga-esque game i was playing for a while with all sorts of 'leader board' stuff.

a story is 99% of the reward for an RPG. which is pretty much the basis of RPG MAKER strangely enough. the story is the reason you purchase the game/pirate the game/whatever.

and yes, some people may make their game totally free. this still gives the same reward for that type of game. the story. experiencing it. the only 'reward' i work for in any of the games with adds in them is shutting adds off, omfg. i want to experience the story i am playing. that's why i play a game with story.

GTA is absolutely an RPG. It is the not the fantasy style RPG, but it is an RPG ever since GTA 3.

I really don't think you understand the question. But if you reward your players with a story, even though it is part of the game by default, then great. I won't go into a yes-no battle over this.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Cool.

I think we are talking semantics here and how someone defines "reward" in this context.
I suppose an alternative argument I could give is that games you need to buy for
money don't necessarily *need* any further rewards.

Well... At least a reward is something you earn, some way or another. You don't buy rewards.

If you look at my OP, and see the second reward, for streamer who promote my game. Do you think that is a bad reward for a bought game?

There is no reason to *hook* a that already paid the full price to play in the first place. They just enjoy the game and move on.

But there is. When a player is hooked to a game on a platform, and returns often, that game comes higher up in the rankings.

 

[Willibab]

a story is 99% of the reward for an RPG. which is pretty much the basis of RPG MAKER strangely enough. the story is the reason you purchase the game/pirate the game/whatever.

and yes, some people may make their game totally free. this still gives the same reward for that type of game. the story. experiencing it. the only 'reward' i work for in any of the games with adds in them is shutting adds off, omfg. i want to experience the story i am playing. that's why i play a game with story.

If a game has a good story but crap gameplay, I prolly wont finish it.
If a game has crap story but fun gameplay, I prolly will.

Just saying...

 

[deus69xxx]

If a game has a good story but crap gameplay, I prolly wont finish it.
If a game has crap story but fun gameplay, I prolly will.

Just saying...

describe to me crap game play. are you looking for WoW done on RPG maker?

in an RPG, you can have the basics. attack, magic, defend, item. you have encounters, gain xp, go up levels, get more equipment. you move directions, and talk to people. etc. the only way this could qualify as crap game play is if there are mistakes like lagoon (good stuff, should check that one out). otherwise, most game play in RPG's is pretty much that. some get extra neat stuff, like sphere grids, or crafting, or what have you. but in essence, it's hard to make crap game play. you can make standard game play and not test things thereby screwing up calculations, but i'm entirely unsure how you make the genre the system here is intended for be crap game play. dragon warrior is as simplistic as it gets, and that's not even 'crap game play.'

also, upon reading about GTA5, it's not an RPG. it's a sandbox with a plot. it's like calling rock n roll racing for the SNES a role playing game because you can buy better cars and upgrade their parts.

 

[Willibab]

Its a subjective thing. As an example, I don't like it if a character just have basic attack or defend.
I like FF1 but I didn't like to play warrior, it was dull compared to the mages. And if I think something in a game is dull, that would fall within the ''crap'' category for me It doesn't mean its objectively flawed or wrong. I just don't like it personally. If all the classes were like that I prolly never would have finished that game.

The bare bone basics of every RPG maker game might not be different but you can do a lot of creative things with those ''extra neat stuff'' additions. You mentioned Sphere grid, I would rather play a game with that then just the basic ''get skills when leveling up''

but i'm entirely unsure how you make the genre the system here is intended for be crap game play.

Perhaps you don't have that many things that bother you compared to others or maybe you are just very good at it so it's easy for you.

I personally struggle with making an interesting gameplay loop, something you don't see in a 100 other games. Something to stand out. Just like you prolly try to make your story stand out because that's what you consider important. (Seemingly)

 

[JohnDoeNews]

If a game has a good story but crap gameplay, I prolly wont finish it.
If a game has crap story but fun gameplay, I prolly will.

Just saying...

I agree. But I do prefer both the story and the gameplay to be fun.

describe to me crap game play. are you looking for WoW done on RPG maker?

in an RPG, you can have the basics. attack, magic, defend, item. you have encounters, gain xp, go up levels, get more equipment. you move directions, and talk to people. etc. the only way this could qualify as crap game play is if there are mistakes like lagoon (good stuff, should check that one out). otherwise, most game play in RPG's is pretty much that. some get extra neat stuff, like sphere grids, or crafting, or what have you. but in essence, it's hard to make crap game play. you can make standard game play and not test things thereby screwing up calculations, but i'm entirely unsure how you make the genre the system here is intended for be crap game play. dragon warrior is as simplistic as it gets, and that's not even 'crap game play.'

also, upon reading about GTA5, it's not an RPG. it's a sandbox with a plot. it's like calling rock n roll racing for the SNES a role playing game because you can buy better cars and upgrade their parts.

Even the final fantasy games each have different game play. Then there are games like Mario RPG, which is completely different. Elder Scrolls Arena, now that is something different. The first fallout games, that was a complete new way of roleplaying. Or how about South Park, stick of truth. Or South Park The Factured But Whole. Both RPG's and both have a completely different (although turn based) game play.

It is not that all RPG's have the exact same type of gameplay.

Also, simple is not the same as crap. Simple games can be very fun to play. Like stick of truth. But bad game play can indeed ruin a game. Like fallout 76. Amazing lore, amazing graphics, poorly executed gameplay, and it ruined the whole franchise.

 

[Willibab]

I agree. But I do prefer both the story and the gameplay to be fun.

Ofc! I would prefer if every single aspect of a game was perfection xD I'm just saying that if I cannot have everything then gameplay is my first priority with video games.

Also, simple is not the same as crap. Simple games can be very fun to play. Like stick of truth. But bad game play can indeed ruin a game. Like fallout 76. Amazing lore, amazing graphics, poorly executed gameplay, and it ruined the whole franchise.

While I personally agree, I think many do see simplicity as bad. I know several people who want their games to be stupidly complicated or they will get bored quickly. (Psst, most of them are PoE players xD)

Lots of different preferences out there.

 

[JohnDoeNews]

While I personally agree, I think many do see simplicity as bad.

Then many of them are wrong. Just to name a few super simple game concepts that conquered the world before:
- Angry Birds
- Flappy Bird
- Candy Crush
- Bubble Shooter (a.k.a. Bubble Witch Saga, which is a rip off, but was way more popular, because of facebook)

Simplicity is often the key to dominating the game industry. Specially mobile & web games.

 

[Willibab]

Then many of them are wrong. Just to name a few super simple game concepts that conquered the world before:
- Angry Birds
- Flappy Bird
- Candy Crush
- Bubble Shooter (a.k.a. Bubble Witch Saga, which is a rip off, but was way more popular, because of facebook)

Simplicity is often the key to dominating the game industry. Specially mobile & web games.

I never said they didn't admit that its popular, just that they don't personally like it.

 

[JohnDoeNews]

I never said they didn't admit that its popular, just that they don't personally like it.

You said:

While I personally agree, I think many do see simplicity as bad.

That is why I said, many are wrong. Just because they don't like it, doesn't mean it is bad, or even crappy.

 

[Iron_Brew]

I've never really wanted to make a game that relied on those cheap casino-type addiction mechanics to keep people coming back.

"Gotta log in to do my dailies/weeklies or I'll miss out!" - cool, do your players actually enjoy the game or do they just feel obliged because the developers have created false scarcity and obliged them to engage with their game to play optimally.

Kind of morally questionable design, imo.

The game should be its own reward. It should be fun, and reward the player with content they are already enjoying. If they're thorough - yumma yumma, sidequests and content to stretch their abilities and test their mastery!

If you "reward the player" in the way you're describing here:



That's not a reward. That's a bribe. Buying their favour. If you have to bribe players to play your game chances are you might want to rethink the content and or design of your game.

 

[residntevl]

If you're making a mobile game, then yes, you want to do the scummy thing of banging a hammer against the dopamine centers of your players until they're bled dry like the stones you beat up at the beach for their blood.

Making players feel like they need to log in every day to do a chore list will burn out a lot of players and filter out the majority of a playerbase who want to experience gameplay rather than sweeping the floor and filling in the state-mandated checklist you give them.

If you seek to make a traditional game, with gameplay (God forbid, I know), you reward your player with the sense of Pride and Accomplishment™ by giving them crazy things known as "Experience Points", "Treasure", "Skills", "Progression of Story Elements". Players are driven by the idea of growth, the ones who log in to daily tasks are people who might be invested in your game, but may ultimately not actually care and are just sucked into the idea of doing checklists because it's something for them to do. If you only care about player retention and not player engagement, checklists over engagement sounds like the way to go. But God will be upset.

 

[Tai_MT]

To talk about the original post (because that was what interested me to begin with):

Engaging With The Narrative
Players who engage with my narrative will be rewarded with more power. The game is constructed like a traditional "open world" style RPG (it's a limited open world, but it still qualifies). Levels do not grant power, but completing quests does. Go ahead and grind levels if you want, it isn't going to make you (immediately) more powerful.

Felling Enemies
I wasn't sure what to title this. Instead of levels rewarding power, the levels reward "unlocks" of a sort. Basically, they are meant to "feed" the player back into exploring the maps. Every level can unlock a quest, a shortcut around the map, a new feature in the map (like a shop), or other things. This is to promote the players taking a stroll back around the familiar map to "see what's changed" each time they level up.

Player Choice
Every choice actually matters. If you are asked to make a choice, then which option you pick will matter. This isn't a "different variation on the same outcome" type choice. This extends even to equipment. If you equip plate armor, you will be very weak to magic attacks of all kinds. If you equip chainmail armor, you will be weak to bashing attacks. If you equip a Battle Axe, you will find you miss hits more often, despite the massive increase in damage. It extends into skills. Each skill will "Level Up" upon completion of specific quests. You are given a choice between two options that split the skill into a specialization of some kind. This choice affects how you will use that skill in the future. It isn't reversable, but both choices are powerful in their own ways. If a quest asks you to make a choice, it can affect not just the rewards, but what quests are available or how those new quests might play out. If you eliminate a bunch of bandits, you might find a town a little further on completely slaughtered as "revenge" for what you did to those bandits. But, if you had simply apprehended the bandits or reported their hide out locations to the local guards, then maybe there's no reprisals like that on the future towns. Likewise, each main story quest involves the player making a choice and that choice affects the story the player is given (sort of like a Choose Your Own Adventure book).

Visiting Inns
Each time the player stays at an Inn, there's a chance for new dialogue and quests to pop up from party members. Some of these are gated behind progression (levels, quests completed, party members with you, story amount complete), but they're a side detour and reward for actually returning to town and utilizing the Inn.

Combat Tactics
The baseline design of combat is "4 actions to kill any new enemy encountered, 1 to kill enemies you have figured out how to defeat". It is nearly impossible for this to hold true for every enemy, but it is the "general rule". The player is rewarded for engaging in tactical behavior. Figuring out the enemy's weaknesses. Watching what the enemies do as a strategy. Coming up with their own strategies is also rewarded. Inflicting states on enemies is rewarded by making combat a lot easier. Memorizing "Enemy Archetypes" and their weaknesses as well. Even which equipment the player is utilizing is a combat tactic.
---

Now to speak on the larger topic at hand of "rewarding players like it's a mobile game".

Is it weird that I don't really engage with such systems? I find them sort of cumbersome, onerous, and "not worth the login".

See, I sort of got over the "FOMO" that a lot of these games engage in just from... well... growing up. I am most certainly going to miss out on things. Things I wish I had. Things I want in the game.

The problem for me always lies in, "Will I be playing this game next week?" for whether or not I engage in the behavior. I might not feel like playing the game next week. The reward isn't even worth the time to remember to log in. Especially when I'm playing like 50 other games with this silly "login reward" nonsense. Oh, 50 gems that I can't spend until I have 2,000 Gems for something truly useful? Thanks, no thanks. I'm not logging in every single day for 40 weeks for that. I'm just not. I just do not care enough.

Seriously, I play a game called "Legends of Idleon". it's an idle MMO thing. It's... not great. But, I enjoy the concept of the game enough to log in from time to time. It's about 20-50 minutes of gameplay on each login. Most of it just running around the map to grab my rewards and drop them into my bank. It has a "login reward" thing. Log in, complete the daily quests, get "Guild Points", which you can use to "buy power". Except... the amounts are so miniscule that it isn't worth it to engage with the system unless you've got a massive Guild that everyone is doing it on. You get like 10 points per daily. 20 or 30 per weekly. 5 Dailies, 5 Weeklies. There's also the "Daily Task" you can complete to "earn ribbons and points", which you use to buy "world features" and "recipe unlocks". But, the amounts are so miniscule for the daily, that they aren't worth completing either.

There are also other things that "reset daily" in the game. There's like a pachinko ball thing you claim the balls and spend each day. Get 1 ball every hour or something. There's a cap on it. 40, I think? There's the "mailbox quests" too. New ones each day. You get rewards for completing these on "streaks". There's also the skills that "cap out" when left too long and you won't gain any more experience in them as a result of that cap, so you need to periodically "return" to claim the levels.

But, you know what?

I play maybe once a week. Maybe once every two weeks. Or just... once a month. The leveling process is so slow and it is the primary factor gating progression. I mean, we're talking 200 XP a kill in World 2, and you being at Level 60 and requiring 5 million XP go get to Level 61. If you make a kill every 20 seconds... you're going to be here a while.

The dailies do nothing to bring me back. Especially since the "doing nothing" portion of the game isn't that fun or compelling. I like logging in to see "you gained a level! Here's all the stuff you farmed for the last week!" and then I deposit it, set up my next farming expedition and promptly forget about the game again.

Actually, let's use a better example here.

You know what the straw that broke the camels back for me was on the FOMO features?

Warframe.

Look, I love Warframe. It is very fun. Progression feels good most of the time. But, it is STEEPED in these FOMO features and it drives me crazy.

You log in and the reward is wortheless, except on SPECIFIC numbers of "days logged in". Where, you're given something pretty amazing. Usually a reward you can get nowhere else. To entice you to log in every day. To get power. Tangible power that can be used. Very powerful, power.

Oh, and they have very powerful Frames! Or weapons! "Primed" ones! But, they're on a weird rotating schedule that they don't announce, advertise, and make farming for quite difficult. To entice you into the shop... or to make you log in every day to grind the stuff you need to obtain them. What Prime Frame is going to appear next? Who knows! Which weapons? WHO KNOWS! Gotta wait until they announce that this event is ending and they're Vaulting the Primes again and then for maybe months to go by before the new stuff suddenly shows up on the store! It's a surprise what is available!

Oh, and then there's the "Daily Quests" with decent rewards behind them... Gotta log in every day to do those tedious tasks! Kill 50 enemies by sliding and shooting them (something I don't do unless the game asks me because it's just not fun to do this crap)! Kill 30 Moa enemies! Complete a Heist thing without setting off an alarm! Meh. Yawnsville.

This is to say nothing of the "Rep Grinds".

And the worst offender? The absolute WORST one?

There were two limited items that were only ever released to "early adopters" of the game. If you didn't donate when the game was new and needed funds, you couldn't get them. Not bad on its face.

They're not cosmetic.

Progression is tied to these items. That is... one of the primary game systems is "leveling up equipment". Each piece of equipment you level up, grants you progress toward your next overall rank. Overall rank exists to essentially lock off certain things to the players and to show "how much of the game" you have completed. That is... how many pieces of equipment you have "maxed out".

The sword and the armor are tied into this progression.

Are they necessary to reach maximum current level? No.

But, for me, they're still a problem.

When I play games, I tend to be a "collectionist". Or, a "completionist" if you prefer. If I can hoard the item somewhere, I will do so. It is proof to myself or to my friends that I have done the thing and have the thing and it's cool. It is proof I have done everything the game has on offer.

There is a weapon and a piece of armor in the game that are tied into the progression system... and I can't get them.

Ever.

My progression meter will never be as full as players who have these items. They will gain levels before me, because they have these items completed that I can't obtain.

Why don't I have them?

I didn't know Warframe existed until after it had basically made it's first "full release". So, I missed out on these items.
More fun than that?
Even if I had known, they were only giving these items to players who donated like $100 or more. At the time the campaign ran, there was no way I could've swung $100 of any kind at a game, even if I had wanted to. I had to borrow $70 to pay a "late notice" on an electric bill from my mom at the time because my Landlord was basically ripping me off and the city wasn't applying my payments correctly or on time.

Oh yes, Warframe, please ignore that I've probably spend at least $800 on your game since then just because I was having fun and wanted to skip the grind on some of the cool stuff (because I work a job and don't have time for that grind, nor is the unfun I'm having to grind for worth the reward). Nope, that's not important at all.

I'm forever locked out of a couple items that I'd dearly like to have for no other reason than it tickles my Dragon Brain in wanting to hoard everything.

Seriously, I quit playing Animal Crossing for this crap. I quit playing Animal Crossing for not letting me collect everything and limiting my inventory space. What is the point of all the furniture and crap if I can't display it all? Or store it all?

WHAT IS THE POINT OF A COLLECTION OF ITEMS IF I CANNOT COLLECT THEM!?

So, no. I universally tend to just say "F login mechanics" in any game. If your game is fun, I'll play it. If I can buy stuff in your shop that I think would be cool to have, that's how you'll get your money from me. I'm not doing these stupid "addiction" tactics that extort my time through FOMO.

FOMO can eat excrement.

At this point, I'd be happier if you just put your FOMO crap on the store as a permanent purchase so if I want it and care enough about your game to get it, I can just buy it and be done.

Don't mess with completionists and collectionists. FOMO is the quickest way to get us to quit playing your game. After all, if we accidently miss one of your events that will never happen again with a reward we can never obtain again... We're going to be playing a game we can never complete. So... if we can't complete it... why keep playing?

Also, I'm a limited time only completionist. I don't have a lot of time on my hands to play games. So, if I choose to spend time in your game, it needs to reward me. None of this "log in for 30 days!" crap. None of this "log in every day this week!" crap. Reward me for COMING BACK to your game.

"Oh, you haven't logged in for 287 days! Here's an amazing reward that will hopefully change your mind about coming back tomorrow to continue playing!".

There is nothing more disheartening than "First day you logged in this week, have 20 of the standard currency!" crap. Yeah, your stinginess is why I haven't been back in 287 days. I just wanted to play for 5 minutes. This feels patronizing rather than rewarding.

 

[the13thsecret]

If we're talking about mobile games, I accept either resources that help me win more a.k.a. "positive feedback loop" or a bragging right in the form of title/cosmetic. And login reward? I take those. If it's "get a rare card of your choice" and you have a personal investment in the game, you'll probably not complain, too. Who doesn't love free stuff? But if it's trash, a non-reward, I'm irritated that the game needlessly wasted a few seconds of my life. I don't think it's an inherent problem to reward players for logging in or doing tasks, it's just that mobile games have incentive to never balance the reward (login or not) in favor of the player or their sense of effort.

If we're talking about completed games where I paid everything upfront? If the reward is part of regular gameplay, I expect a healthy heaping of resources and progress to get me through the game faster. As for bonus content? I'd have to be fueled by intrinsic motivation to accomplish everything.

 

[JohnDoeNews]

That's not a reward. That's a bribe. Buying their favour. If you have to bribe players to play your game chances are you might want to rethink the content and or design of your game.

Right... Nah, he randomly started playing my game trough a stream then again and again. To thank him, I made the card-back. You accusing me of things like bribes is just pathetic.

 

[Iron_Brew]

Right... Nah, he randomly started playing my game trough a stream then again and again. To thank him, I made the card-back. You accusing me of things like bribes is just pathetic.

I wasn't talking about something you'd done, specifically, but OK.

I was talking about the specific part of the post I quoted. Y'know, "rewarding players for reviewing your game"? All that stuff? The stuff in the post? The exchange of favours or rewards for partaking in behaviour which promotes your agenda/product? The bribes.

Maybe try not being so defensive that you have to lash out at the merest whiff of criticism.

 

[Julijewels]

This is the worst. I hate when a game becomes easier just because I am playing it. Some people actually like being challenged when playing games.

I'd argue that just by playing a game, it becomes easier because you become more skillful at it.

 

[Arctica]

This is the worst. I hate when a game becomes easier just because I am playing it. Some people actually like being challenged when playing games.

I'm late to the party but as this concept applies to a lot of games in the past, I gotta say I prefer to rewarded this way(more play time/leveling = easier). MMOs though have people that think like you and I have to say that I also I don't want things to be so hard that as soon I'm hit one time, Im dead instantely. Not everything has to be Dark Souls level of hard where you grind 400 levels and it's like you're still level 1.

 

[Iron_Brew]

I'd argue that just by playing a game, it becomes easier because you become more skillful at it.

Any designer worth their salt should be able to compensate and create a difficulty curve that increases to match player ability and avatar strength

 

[Tai_MT]

Any designer worth their salt should be able to compensate and create a difficulty curve that increases to match player ability and avatar strength

You would think. But, it's remarkably uncommon. I've yet to play a game that advertises "it's difficult" that was actually difficult.

Heck, even the vaunted "From Software" titles are some of the easiest games I've played. Granted, I've only played partially through Dark Souls 1 and most of the way through Elden Ring... but these are difficult games? Challenging?

REALLY?

Even the playerbase can't tell you they're hard. They're all like, "The game is difficult if you play a specific way!". Well, I mean, if you deliberately handicap yourself... then yeah... it's difficult. You can steer your car with your toes if you want to, but that doesn't mean steering your car is hard, just because it's difficult with your toes. Just means you're doing it wrong.