How to solve the maxed out job problem?

[FarOutFighter]

What I mean is... ya know when you have this awesome build, but then you max out the job you are using. Do you switch to another job to earn more job points? or do you stay in your current job because it's more fun? Currently the JP in my game applies to all jobs, but this is not the ideal solution. Because you can learn skills from different jobs without having to put it any investment into that job. And that's not what I want either. I basically want a way for someone to earn a benefit from maining a job even if it's maxed out. Any ideas?

 

[ATT_Turan]

Stat Upgrades (MV Plugin Tips & Tricks) - Yanfly.moe Wiki

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[Sword_of_Dusk]

@ATT_Turan I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what he's after.

@FarOutFighter One simple way to handle this is to give players a special bonus that is only active when using a maxed out job. That way they have an incentive to stay in that job or return to it later if they previously swapped.

 

[ATT_Turan]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what he's after.

Perhaps? It's how I interpreted the request - one way to encourage staying in a maxed job is to be able to purchase stat upgrades that unlock once you've mastered the job and continue to earn JP in it.

One simple way to handle this is to give players a special bonus that is only active when using a maxed out job. That way they have an incentive to stay in that job or return to it later if they previously swapped.

You can definitely also do that. You don't even need to wait for it to max, you can have class-specific perks that are separate from the skills you spend JP on. Final Fantasy V did this, Fire Emblem Three Houses has it a bit.

 

[Sword_of_Dusk]

Perhaps? It's how I interpreted the request - one way to encourage staying in a maxed job is to be able to purchase stat upgrades that unlock once you've mastered the job and continue to earn JP in it.

Oh, you meant it like that. I see. Yeah, that works.

 

[NamEtag]

This is just the usual progression problem. How do you motivate players to try different builds aside from "wasted jp", and how do you make each build of comparable use across different job unlock gates.

The simplest method that isn't really used in the usual job class jrpgs is the KH2 method: Restrict the max job level according to the total number of jobs available. This dripfeeds skills in a way that's more similar to non-class games.

The more hardcore solution is to require a large variety of builds to face content. Encounters need to be harder, have notable vulnerabilities to certain builds and synergies, and it needs to be very, very easy to swap builds around. The more button presses it takes to switch classes and equipment, the more of a slog this thing becomes even if you design the encounters well.

 

[ATT_Turan]

It would also be pretty easy to implement something where you have a small but cumulative boost to parameters/damage/resistances/whatever based on your unspent JP in your current class.

 

[TheoAllen]

Do you switch to another job to earn more job points?

I do.

or do you stay in your current job because it's more fun?

When I maxed out a particular class/job, I lost the reason to play it. I switched to another.

I basically want a way for someone to earn a benefit from maining a job even if it's maxed out. Any ideas?

Assume playing with another class/job is not fun, they can use it as a sub-job to earn JP at a slower pace. Of course, you can only do this when the main job is already maxed out.

Having a sub-job could also be used to 'tease' the usefulness of the job. For example, having a nerfed version of their skill/perk when subbing it.

 

[Tai_MT]

I'm not sure there's an easy answer to this question.

How do you motivate players to use jobs? It largely depends. When you're dealing with Completionists, just the act of having the other jobs is typically enough to get them to use it. For everyone else... that motivation is going to vary.

Just based on your short description here, my immediate thought to "fixing" your system is as follows:

1. Add a "secondary" Point System for each Job. Your Job Points allow you to learn every skill for every job, even if you haven't played them. However, a secondary point system that would only go up for the job you are playing would give stat boosts, passives, or even something like a "Finisher" for the job. The "finisher" would basically just be your "Limit Break" skill, and it could only be used once the job was "maxed out", and only on the job you're playing as (so a Knight's finisher couldn't be used if you were a Thief).

2. If you want players to pick a job and stick to it for long periods of time, just make it fun to continue using. If a job is "one note", then it's only good for that "one note". But, if it has a bit of versatility, it can be useful in many different situations. Maybe give the jobs a gimmick. Final Fantasy 6 had "gimmicks" on their characters and those gimmicks were pretty fun. I still like Setzers "slot machine", and I love Locke's "Mug". I also loved "Sword Tech" from Cyan or even "Runic" from Celes. A distinct reason to keep playing the class, like it has a fun mechanic to use, is a way to keep players using it.

3. If you wanted players to swap jobs decently frequently, then I would just suggest you tailor challenges to specific groups of jobs. Maybe this dungeon can't be tackled by mages, so you have to use all the melee classes here. Maybe this dungeon can't be tackled by anyone who uses weapons, so players have to use Monks and Wizards. Stuff like this would get players to try different things, and you could have fun with what limits you put in place. You could even have an "Eastern Themed" dungeon where only Samurai and Ninja can be used. The possibilities are near limitless. Only restricted by your imagination and ability to write convincing Lore reasons (or, ability to make players not care if your restrictions exist, because it's the type of game that just doesn't take itself that seriously).

Anyway, those were my initial thoughts on the subject. Not sure how helpful they are to you. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a description of your system to go on here to go more in-depth on the subject, and I also have no idea what specific things you're trying to accomplish with your Job System. Without knowing either, my reply is limited to this specific "knee-jerk" reply.

 

[FarOutFighter]

I'm not sure there's an easy answer to this question.

How do you motivate players to use jobs? It largely depends. When you're dealing with Completionists, just the act of having the other jobs is typically enough to get them to use it. For everyone else... that motivation is going to vary.

Just based on your short description here, my immediate thought to "fixing" your system is as follows:

1. Add a "secondary" Point System for each Job. Your Job Points allow you to learn every skill for every job, even if you haven't played them. However, a secondary point system that would only go up for the job you are playing would give stat boosts, passives, or even something like a "Finisher" for the job. The "finisher" would basically just be your "Limit Break" skill, and it could only be used once the job was "maxed out", and only on the job you're playing as (so a Knight's finisher couldn't be used if you were a Thief).

2. If you want players to pick a job and stick to it for long periods of time, just make it fun to continue using. If a job is "one note", then it's only good for that "one note". But, if it has a bit of versatility, it can be useful in many different situations. Maybe give the jobs a gimmick. Final Fantasy 6 had "gimmicks" on their characters and those gimmicks were pretty fun. I still like Setzers "slot machine", and I love Locke's "Mug". I also loved "Sword Tech" from Cyan or even "Runic" from Celes. A distinct reason to keep playing the class, like it has a fun mechanic to use, is a way to keep players using it.

3. If you wanted players to swap jobs decently frequently, then I would just suggest you tailor challenges to specific groups of jobs. Maybe this dungeon can't be tackled by mages, so you have to use all the melee classes here. Maybe this dungeon can't be tackled by anyone who uses weapons, so players have to use Monks and Wizards. Stuff like this would get players to try different things, and you could have fun with what limits you put in place. You could even have an "Eastern Themed" dungeon where only Samurai and Ninja can be used. The possibilities are near limitless. Only restricted by your imagination and ability to write convincing Lore reasons (or, ability to make players not care if your restrictions exist, because it's the type of game that just doesn't take itself that seriously).

Anyway, those were my initial thoughts on the subject. Not sure how helpful they are to you. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a description of your system to go on here to go more in-depth on the subject, and I also have no idea what specific things you're trying to accomplish with your Job System. Without knowing either, my reply is limited to this specific "knee-jerk" reply.

I like the idea of the secondary point system. That is something I could actually implement. I was also thinking of making certain skills only unlock after purchasing their parent skills, which might make players think of if they really want to invest in a certain job or not. Also, each job has passive skills that can be unlocked, and maybe those can only be purchased once the usable skills are unlocked.

 

[lianderson]

An easy solution is to give permanent rewards for maxing out a job. This will motivate players to max out different classes.

Max out Warrior class, permanently gain 25% attack and health

Max out Mage class, permanently gain 25% magic and mana

Max out Healer class, permanently double healing received

Max out Smithing class, forever be able to equip anything in the game.

Max out Witch class, permanent immunity to most status effects.

etc.


Could even give rewards for halfway or partially maxing out as well.

 

[FarOutFighter]

An easy solution is to give permanent rewards for maxing out a job. This will motivate players to max out different classes.

Max out Warrior class, permanently gain 25% attack and health

Max out Mage class, permanently gain 25% magic and mana

Max out Healer class, permanently double healing received

Max out Smithing class, forever be able to equip anything in the game.

Max out Witch class, permanent immunity to most status effects.

etc.


Could even give rewards for halfway or partially maxing out as well.

In theory that's good, but personally that would not make me want to waste JP.

 

[Holder]

secondary job class? that they can have the maxed out with all their abilities as secondary while upping the others.
Job classes level up and unlock other classes? Archer into gunner. but you need archer and say knight for a lancer.

 

[FarOutFighter]

secondary job class? that they can have the maxed out with all their abilities as secondary while upping the others.
Job classes level up and unlock other classes? Archer into gunner. but you need archer and say knight for a lancer.

I don't know why I didn't think of that... it's a fairly simple solution. I would just have rebalance the game.

 

[Holder]

I don't know why I didn't think of that... it's a fairly simple solution. I would just have rebalance the game.

From what I can think of just have the main class have traits that don't move with the skills.
This could be base stat effects, offensive mage could gain higher m-atk so having offensive magic as a sub class wouldn't be as powerful.

 

[FarOutFighter]

From what I can think of just have the main class have traits that don't move with the skills.
This could be base stat effects, offensive mage could gain higher m-atk so having offensive magic as a sub class wouldn't be as powerful.

I reread this a few times and I still don't understand what you mean...

 

[ATT_Turan]

From what I can think of just have the main class have traits that don't move with the skills.
This could be base stat effects, offensive mage could gain higher m-atk so having offensive magic as a sub class wouldn't be as powerful.

I reread this a few times and I still don't understand what you mean...

One simple way to handle this is to give players a special bonus that is only active when using a maxed out job. That way they have an incentive to stay in that job or return to it later if they previously swapped.

You can definitely also do that. You don't even need to wait for it to max, you can have class-specific perks that are separate from the skills you spend JP on. Final Fantasy V did this, Fire Emblem Three Houses has it a bit.

Same thing that people have suggested since the first day of your thread.

 

[sabao]

or do you stay in your current job because it's more fun?

I reckon this might be one issue you want to examine. If you don't consider the class engaging enough, perhaps consider finding a way for them to be interesting! I mean why bother making anything playable when you don't find them interesting?

As far as class progression goes, I see three popular executions. I think you ought to consider how you treat progression before proceeding to how your skill point economy operates.

• The Circle/Line (examples: Octopath Traveler, Final Fantasy XIV)
  Each class has a specific key mechanic unique to itself. Class progression just means unlocking more utility and power for the specific class (ex. Single target spells to AOE spells) and changing classes simply means changing their roles in combat altogether (ex. Mage to Healer).
  
  Final Fantasy XIV, for example has characters that have essentially mediocre natural stats and growth across the board by default that are augmented only by stat bonuses granted by their active class. This means any character can play any class the player feels like running them in: learning the Healer class for a character you ultimately plan on making a Warrior will not have any crossover benefit, for example, so just opting not to play the class at all on said character is fine.
  
  On the other hand, Octopath Traveler allows characters to select Subclasses that give them access to skills from classes other than their own natural class, opening up options for Tanks to learn Healer skills so they can be self-sustaining and/or a one-man support unit. The penalty being these characters do not possess the stats natural Healers have, so the spells aren't nearly as potent.
  
  
• The Tree (examples: Dragon Age: Origins, Ragnarok Online)
  Consider this example a more visually flashy version of Octopath's subclass system: each character can be designed to fall into a prescribed path, and progressing through said path opens up branching options which may either diversify or specialize said character.
  
  Ragnarok Online's Swordsman class is a basic class that's both durable and packs a punch. Upon reaching a certain job level, they may progress into either the defense-oriented Paladin or the offense-oriented Knight.
  
  Dragon Age: Origin's Warriors are much like the aforementioned Swordsmen. They can be classed up into high damage Berserkers, durable Champions, or open up new magic options for them as Reavers or Templars.
  
  
• The Web (examples: Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea)
  Class progression can be horizontal (Knight to Mage, no requirements), vertical (Ronin: unlocks with Samurai at level X), and conditional (Ninja: unlocks at Archer level X and Geomancer level Y).
  
  Horizontal is the same as Circle/Line in that you are only essentially shifting roles. Vertical is just a more powerful version of the same class, while Conditional creates a unique hybrid of the required class, either thematically or mechanically.

If you want to encourage rotating classes, then I'd say a Web system would work quite nicely, if a little complicated to plan. A Tree model also creates some room for player expression but enough constraints so as not to be overwhelming for the game designer.

Just remember: don't bite off more than you can chew, and always keep player engagement at the top of your mind.

 

[SGHarlekin]

Do you switch to another job to earn more job points?

Actually no. Once I've found a build I enjoy, I stick with it. If anything I would go and make a new character if I wanted to try out a new build.

 

[FarOutFighter]

Actually no. Once I've found a build I enjoy, I stick with it. If anything I would go and make a new character if I wanted to try out a new build.

Well, there are 18 characters to choose from by the end of the game, so you'd be able to do 18 builds. I guess for me I would want to swap. Maybe because I am too perfectionistic. But like I just cannot stand not getting points.

Edit:
Also - is there any way to make an event system that checks JP (Visu Stella) and lets you say, go to an orb that reduces your JP by 100 and increases a stat? Or maybe you spend JP and get an item that increases a bit less, like spend 100 JP of current job to get an item that increases JP for any job by 80. I can't figure out how to check JP, though, like to assign it to a variable. Is there something I am missing?