Mattaroni

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I want to make a game with a "self-insert" protagonist (in other words, a protagonist you name yourself, can decide the gender of, and can choose personality through dialogue options), and I want some feedback on...

  • What are your opinions on "self-insert" protagonists?
  • What kinds of stories benefit or work with a "self insert" protagonist?
  • What are some good ways to write a "self insert" protagonist?
 

Andar

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The one game that did it best is still "Ultima 4: Quest for the Avatar" (has absolutely nothing to do with the anime)

The problem is to make an SI believable the game needs to be able to react to the actions of the player, no matter what he/she decides to do. Everything else is just a preconceited character with customization actions, not a true SI.
 

Mattaroni

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The one game that did it best is still "Ultima 4: Quest for the Avatar" (has absolutely nothing to do with the anime)

The problem is to make an SI believable the game needs to be able to react to the actions of the player, no matter what he/she decides to do. Everything else is just a preconceited character with customization actions, not a true SI.
So essentially having the world evolve based on the player's actions? Like in this example...

Defeat the Crime Boss: Brings peace to the city, but forever makes you an enemy of the bandits
or
Help the Crime Boss: Get cool weapons & money, but lose favor from the city
 

Iron_Brew

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I'd suggest playing games with these kinds of protagonists and seeing how they structure themselves, rather than asking such an open-ended question. This is an incredibly popular niche, and one that is fraught with its own strengths and ptifalls.

Some good examples are:
  • The Elder Scrolls (Series)
  • Dark Souls
  • Fallout
  • Cyberpunk 2077
  • Dragon Quest (Series)
  • Dragon Age (Series)
  • Baldur's Gate (Series)
  • Ultima (Series)
  • Pokémon (Series)
This is such a common feature for RPGs that I have trouble thinking you'd be hard-pressed figuring out what features these games have in common in terms of narrative and quest structure/design.

The strength of a "self-insert" protagonist is greater immersion for the player, although be warned a lot of people find these kinds of narratives gauche these days as you can end up not providing players with the choices they want to make.

In games with limited agency, you need to make sure that the player's choices both make sense and are relatively comprehensive across what would be situationally viable at that moment in the story so as to not disenfranchise them.

I'd recommend playing Dragon Quest 1-3 to see how a self-insert game with minimal player agency can be achieved relatively easily with RPG Maker. Those games are more about presenting the player with challenges which are agnostic to complex moral choices or the like, and are simply about giving the player fun gameplay to work their way through.
 

Mattaroni

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I'd suggest playing games with these kinds of protagonists and seeing how they structure themselves, rather than asking such an open-ended question. This is an incredibly popular niche, and one that is fraught with its own strengths and ptifalls.

Some good examples are:
  • The Elder Scrolls (Series)
  • Dark Souls
  • Fallout
  • Cyberpunk 2077
  • Dragon Quest (Series)
  • Dragon Age (Series)
  • Baldur's Gate (Series)
  • Ultima (Series)
  • Pokémon (Series)
This is such a common feature for RPGs that I have trouble thinking you'd be hard-pressed figuring out what features these games have in common in terms of narrative and quest structure/design.

The strength of a "self-insert" protagonist is greater immersion for the player, although be warned a lot of people find these kinds of narratives gauche these days as you can end up not providing players with the choices they want to make.

In games with limited agency, you need to make sure that the player's choices both make sense and are relatively comprehensive across what would be situationally viable at that moment in the story so as to not disenfranchise them.

I'd recommend playing Dragon Quest 1-3 to see how a self-insert game with minimal player agency can be achieved relatively easily with RPG Maker. Those games are more about presenting the player with challenges which are agnostic to complex moral choices or the like, and are simply about giving the player fun gameplay to work their way through.
I've played Skyrim and Souls-like games.

I know in the case of Skyrim, the world evolves based on your actions and who you decide to side within the story.

I also know Pokemon does a similar thing to what I aim for. You're just a person going on an adventure to catch all kinds of Pokemon. Said person has a pre-determined design, but you can decide their name and gender, as well as dialogue options.

In Cyberpunk 2077, you can decide the back story of your character and customize their design, but the name is pre-determined, even if it is just 1 letter.

I've always been a bit hesitant to play Dragon Quest because the art style is not really my fancy... I always thought it just gave you a pre-made protagonist like any other JRPG.

There's also Star Wars KOTOR (2003), which I think is one of the best examples of a self-insert protagonist. Your destiny is determined by your dialogue & action choices throughout the game. As for the design, you can choose their name, but you have like 10 different heads for each gender to choose from.
 

Iron_Brew

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I've played Skyrim and Souls-like games.

I know in the case of Skyrim, the world evolves based on your actions and who you decide to side within the story.

I also know Pokemon does a similar thing to what I aim for. You're just a person going on an adventure to catch all kinds of Pokemon. Said person has a pre-determined design, but you can decide their name and gender, as well as dialogue options.

In Cyberpunk 2077, you can decide the back story of your character and customize their design, but the name is pre-determined, even if it is just 1 letter.

I've always been a bit hesitant to play Dragon Quest because the art style is not really my fancy... I always thought it just gave you a pre-made protagonist like any other JRPG.

There's also Star Wars KOTOR (2003), which I think is one of the best examples of a self-insert protagonist. Your destiny is determined by your dialogue & action choices throughout the game. As for the design, you can choose their name, but you have like 10 different heads for each gender to choose from.

So what you're saying is you know the pros and cons of a self-insert story.

The "Self-Insert" aspect of these games is not whether you can create the characters' appearence, or name them - that much is true for a lot of games wherein you follow a set, linear narrative and can't make any choices for yourself. Those features (character creation) are window-dressing; they help you feel more connected to your character, but they are not the essence of how a player actually interacts with the world.

Since you've played the Souls games, let's use those as an example:
  • In Dark Souls you make a character - this includes their name and physical characteristics, but also due to the amount of variety in gear, spells, pyromancies, etc your playthrough will be wildly different to other people's. This is a way of taking a linear (albeit relatively open) narrative and allowing players to imprint their personality onto it. That said, the narrative of the game is less character-driven and more event-driven, as the game cannot take everyone's individual character choices into account.
  • In Sekiro you play as Wolf - a set character. Because of this the game has a higher emphasis on narrative, with the character you play as being an important part of the narrative. As such, the other characters you meet know Wolf, and have relationships with them that the game explores - even if the gameplay is less varied as a result. While you - the player - still make choices that impact the narrative, the character is predetermined, so the story is character-driven rather than necessarily event driven.
I hope this demonstrates the differences between stories told with a self-insert, player-made character versus one with a pre-determined character. Even if you have a choice-heavy game, the character you create will always have more limited embedding into the world and events because the game (and writers of said game) will not know to whom they are catering the story at the outset.

As such it is a necessity that these stories become more event-driven than character-driven. This is of course outside of existing/"recruitable" characters within the world, who often act as an anchor for more character-driven content.

For a great examples of this, see KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, and other Party-Driven RPGs wherein the main character is a blank slate.
 

BubblegumPatty

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  • What are your opinions on "self-insert" protagonists?
Completely neutral. It's hard to have strong feelings about a character that barely exists as a character.
  • What kinds of stories benefit or work with a "self insert" protagonist?
RPGs that have high levels of roleplay and variability depending on the player's choices. While it won't make or break a game for me, I don't see the point of a self insert protagonist if the story is going to be very linear. Why is this character "Me" if it's doing things "I" Wouldn't do in this situation? I'm just roleplaying a guy I don't know at this point.
  • What are some good ways to write a "self insert" protagonist?
branching story paths with branching endings/story events, and the ability to customize the character beyond a cosmetic level.
For example Chrono in Chrono Trigger is Chrono, no matter what you call him. He plays the same and people react to him more or less the same way. But the Protagonist in Shin Megami Tensei 3 can not only have any name beyond the title "Demi-Fiend", be on any story route, have any demons in his party, know any skills, and be whatever personality the player wants him to have.
And then there's stuff like the Elder scrolls where the character can be literally anything, do anything (within reason), etc etc.

Basically try to make it matter that the player is a self insert type, at least as much as you're willing to make work... Because having and balancing lots of variables takes a lot of work.
 

Tai_MT

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I want to make a game with a "self-insert" protagonist (in other words, a protagonist you name yourself, can decide the gender of, and can choose personality through dialogue options), and I want some feedback on...

  • What are your opinions on "self-insert" protagonists?

I don't know. It really depends. I rarely "play myself", unless there's a dire need to do so. More often than not, I just make "Lucky Duke" who has the darkest skin color you can get, has an afro, wears sunglasses, has a full beard and 'stache, and all his hair is dyed bright blue. His only "defining feature" across every game I play him is just that his "Luck" stat is maxed out... or the equivalent of his luck stat is maxed out (so if there's no luck stat, but to get into every container I need lockpicking, he's got it, etcetera).

I generally play him "decently neutral". As in, he'll help pretty much anyone unless it will hurt his rep in some way to do so. He's just as likely to help some guy steal some stuff from the police as he is to help some people kill some bandits. If the choices are "mutually exclusive", he'll tend to just side with "the good guys".

Here's my main problems with "playing a self insert".

Lack of actual customization.
Lack of ability to form my own personality.
Lack of ability to form my own narrative (personal narrative, or otherwise).
Inability to "solve" problems the way either I, or my character, would solve the problem.
Lack of nuance.

What do I mean?

Customization
I don't mean physical customization. I like being able to customize my backstory (and have it matter, ro have portions of that backstory be customizable), my talents, skills, known associates, etcetera.

Oh, there's an Arena in the game? Why can't my character start out as a disgraced former Champion of the Arena? Or, even, the current Champion? What do you mean as a Thief, I have no contacts in the Town Guard who have been "looking the other way" for my misdeeds for a while?

Nope, always have to "start from zero" and work my way up to something interesting... and by the time I"ve done that, the game is over, and I can't do anything interesting with my "endgame fame and fortune".

Yep, that's right, I'm a sheltered person who starts at Level 1 despite being 48 in the game's setting. I guess I sat around and did nothing for all those years.

The lack of customization here means I can't "create an interesting story", and I'm locked into whatever the game gives me. This lack of ability to create an interesting story also means a lack of personal investment in the character beyond "This is the stat stick I will use to beat the game".

Personality
Is there a reason games don't come with a list of "likes and dislikes" for characters? Why am I locked to generalized "Jovial Voice"? What if I want "Playfully wise smart-donkey" voice? Is that an option? Why not? Also, why are my interactions so "generic"? I sort of wish there were some options for "tweaking your personality" so that it alters how characters treat you... and how your character treats others.

Like, I might do "good things" for wrong reasons. But, the game never registers that that's what I've done. No, it just goes, "Yep, I was a good boy. I'm a saint. Here's my saint answer to the NPC. Now listen to the NPC call me a Saint". It doesn't even take into account that I'd do "bad things" for the best reasons. Nope, the game just silently pidgeonholes me into things and doesn't really care what my personality is, or what the personality of my character is.

It's a bit frustrating when a game assumes things about my personality or the personality of my character and doesn't take all my previous actions or responses into account. Or, even, the situations at hand in relation to the world setting and the way my character has been acting.

Like, there's no way for me to be a serious straight and narrow character... who also has a lot of "childlike wonder" and "excitement" when interacting with specific things or even people. I can't make a serious no-nonsense assassin who ALSO just loves to hang out and spread gossip amongst all the ladies in town. I can't play that kind of character. My personality is going to either be "no nonsense" or "valley girl" and nothing in betwixt.

Narrative
The game won't ever track that I've made and lost a dozen fortunes. It won't track whether I've grieved for any death. It won't track if I've "felt remorse" for anything I've done. It won't track my hopes and dreams. It won't track whether or not I've valued some things over others. It won't track if I've been married a dozen times, or even have kids. The narrative is unchanging for my personal character. It's whatever I "imagine" it to be, because the game isn't going to respond to it. Did I rob one guy in town, but nobody else? Game isn't going to track that. Did I blow my entire fortune adopting 35 kids and having them live in my opulant palace? It won't track that. Will it track that I have never "struck an enemy first"? Or that I've always tried to avoid violence with every dialogue choice?

No.

There's no ability to even build my own character's "narrative" other than what I "imagine" it might be. And, at that point, I might as well be writing a book about my character instead of playing a game about one I make up.

Problem Solving
There are so many games where the "obvious solutions" are so stupid and the game forces you to make one, that it's frustrating. It's one thing if my character has a preset personality and thus could only ever think of the 2-4 solutions... But, it's quite another thing when the game is asking me, the player, to solve a problem... and the solutions presented are NOT the way I'd EVER solve a problem.

I'm sure anyone could think of examples of this. Where presented solutions are monumentally stupid... and things you do that would work better just "aren't supported by the game".

Now, I now that "not every solution could be accounted for", but surely if you've got a "self insert character", you've planned for almost EVERYTHING a player could reasonably come up with. If not... then what is the point of asking me to insert myself into your game and then only act within the bounds of WHAT YOU want me to do?

What do you mean, I can't kill the obviously evil guy at the beginning of the game?
What do you mean, I can't just toss the McGuffin into the nearest ocean so the badguy never gets it?
These are just the big examples.

If you're asking me to put me into a game, then you need to account for solutions I might try, and obvious workarounds for your quests. As many as possible.

Nuance
Is there a reason I can't "pretend" to be mad at people? Or kind to them? Oh, I can choose the "kindness" option to some obvious badguys, but that makes me side with them. Why can't I "pretend to work with them" and then backstab them all later? Or, use them for my own ends and have them work against their own master?

I like a little nuance. What if I'm only "fake flirting" with someone? Why can't I do that? Why does it always result in romance when I flirt? What if the relationship I have with this character is just that we're good friends, but we "flirt" as our "banter"? Why isn't that a thing? Why can't me and my best friend insult each other as a sign of camraderie?

What about if I hate a specific kind of food, except if a certain character makes it? Why isn't that nuance there?

I know it's probably impossible to do some of this stuff, but I like being able to add nuance to my character, if you're letting me play my own.


  • What kinds of stories benefit or work with a "self insert" protagonist?

Eh, most of them that don't require the story revolve around someone with a set personality, relationships, and quirks. Anything that has any of those tends to suffer from "self insert protagonists".

  • What are some good ways to write a "self insert" protagonist?

Honestly, I don't know. I've yet to find one I even "enjoy". I always just play some exceptionally limited facsimile of what I want to do.

---

Hope that helps.
 

Sword_of_Dusk

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What are your opinions on "self-insert" protagonists?
I neither love nor hate them. I'm pretty neutral.


What kinds of stories benefit or work with a "self insert" protagonist?
I'd say a game where player choice is heavily pushed is where blank slate characters shine best (I say blank slate because "self-insert" is a very specific thing, and a lot of people tend to actually create a character that isn't themselves).


What are some good ways to write a "self insert" protagonist?
Well, if you're working with a blank slate in a more traditional RPG, you don't really need to worry about their writing too much. I feel like the story surrounding them and what kind of choices it prompts will be more important. Besides that, the real impact will come from the party members. They have to have strong personalities to make up for the protagonist's lack of one. Through the party's writing, you can even characterize the protagonist.

In a game more similar to something like Fallout, I think that you need to make sure you have varied enough speech options to allow players to bring the character to life. Additional options that open based on the skills you invested in also help make the player feel like this character is one they've developed.

Take Fallout: New Vegas for instance. You wanna play a smooth talking man who doesn't need to pull a gun to solve problems? Keep your Speech skill high and take the options that open up as a result. Wanna make them homosexual? Take the Confirmed Bachelor perk and you can flirt with compatible men. Maybe you want to play as a cannibal and go around eating people. There's a perk for that. Maybe you want to play a seductress who sweet talks men into bed and then kills them. The Black Widow perk exists.

Besides letting player upgrades matter, make stuff in character creation matter. Allow the player to pick their character's history from a range of options and make that open up different opportunities in the game. And all this can still be applied to traditional RPGs if you want it to.
 

sabao

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  • What are your opinions on "self-insert" protagonists?
I read "Self-insert characters" a different way at first blush. The term is generally poo-pooed among writing circles because authors writing characters based on themselves is usually seen as a thing amateurs do.

Going with @Sword_of_Dusk and calling them "Blank Slates." Usage depends on the game. There's really little incentive in presenting a game where players can play themselves if avenues for player expression are limited. I'll expand below.

  • What kinds of stories benefit or work with a "self insert" protagonist?
Narratively, a blank slate character will resonate only if presented with the ability to influence events with meaningful choices. I personally would not care to name Link anything else in Legend of Zelda, for example.

I'm not sure anyone looks at Crono from Chrono Trigger as anyone other than Crono. Different endings based on choice exist, certainly, but they're decided on less by Crono himself and more the player's invisible hand moving the entire cast around, especially in the final stretch of the game.

I can't see Suikoden II's protagonist as anyone more than Schtolteheim Reinbach III. A lot of binary choices are available, but really, only one or two will influence the story in a significant way.

I had a conversation with a friend about Baldur's Gate III recently, and what he found remarkable about the game was not just the sheer amount of choice and consequence the game offered, but also just the very fact that the game offered choices he felt he would personally make. I'd never thought about it much, but he's right: immersion would work better if the choices players make can reflect their values and beliefs a little better, and if there are equally varied consequences for each.

  • What are some good ways to write a "self insert" protagonist?
Depends on what game you're going for.

The obvious choice is to map out some sweeping hyper narrative on the scale of BG3 or Elder Scrolls, but that feels to me like something most people at a hobbyist level of game dev may want to avoid unless they wish to languish in development hell for years.

Blank slates don't necessarily have to be just about being able to influence events in the story.

Games like Animal Crossing and Pokemon let you name the characters after yourself because they afford the ability to personalize. I did in fact spend the first year of the pandemic building my Animal Crossing island to look like the immediate area of my first apartment when I first moved to Tokyo. I made color-coded teams for Pokemon Sword/Shield just to feel like some kind of gym leader.

Other options:
  • Social/Dating Sims (Stardew Valley, Dream Daddy): Romance option plots don't have to branch out of control too much. Player expression is largely down to choosing their preferred partner.
  • Dungeon Crawlers (Etrian Odyssey, 7th Dragon III Code:VFD): Players make the entire party themselves. Games like these have a tendency of just creating "head canon" or imagined interactions between party members as players project personalities onto their created party. As far as in-game story goes though, they're largely just silent observers. Might not be everyone's cup of tea.
 
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what you described is basically a hallmark of CRPGs in general, if you like you could go and try them out to have a feel of how the idea plays out for you, then see how it would work for RPG Maker
 

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a protagonist you name yourself, can decide the gender of, and can choose personality through dialogue options
I would like to point out that if this is all it takes to be a self-insert protagonist, then you don't even need to look at open world games, you can go look at Fire Emblem Awakening and Fates which are overly linear. You might have dialogue options (and in the japanese version of Awakening, your voice changes how all dialogue is said), but you aren't actually changing* any part of the story.

*Yes, Fates has a singular giant choice, but that isn't so much "deciding which faction to join" as it is "Which full price game did you buy?".

I'd recommend playing Dragon Quest 1-3 to see how a self-insert game with minimal player agency can be achieved relatively easily with RPG Maker.
DQ3 has the most bare-bones version of this and shows it fantastically. You decide name, appearance, and personality (in the versions that have that silly mechanic), but the plot happens at the player and not so much because of the player.

  • What are some good ways to write a "self insert" protagonist?
That's the key thing about them; you're not the one writing them, the player is. We already have an entire medium built around self-insert protagonists in tabletop roleplaying (such as D&D). If you want a game that has any amount of story in it AND the story is affected by self-insert protagonists, then it's much better to start from a similar perspective Game Masters do instead of the more common perspective of writing a story; You aren't there to dictate a story, you're there to make a world for them to make a story in. Others have brought up CRPGs and other more western series and they more or less aim to do this (whether or not they succeed is really a whole conversation of its own per series).

  • What kinds of stories benefit or work with a "self insert" protagonist?
Probably the best ones are the ones where there isn't a story. Take an extreme example in Minecraft; there's no story, there's no guidance, there's nothing the game really says you should do. Anything you do is your choice. You are inserting yourself into a voxel sandbox and building what you want to build and doing it because you have a reason and want to build it.

But that's also a bit of a cop out answer. There's some random PS2 game I played way back in the day. The game was intentionally short with the longest path being 3 hours. It was entirely built upon choices you made. Sure, you always started in the same place, but there were so, so, so many choices and the game was built in mind assuming that you'd play through at least a few times to really get a bite out of the overarching plot. Take that, but let it have different starting points, make each playthrough about what this specific character the player decided to make is going through for this historic event, and you have a fantastic (if short) game for this.

What are your opinions on "self-insert" protagonists?
I don't really have any issue with any particular one or even much of an opinion on them. Dragonborn is fine, Robin is fine, Erdrick is fine. But I'm not really sure what the point is when the goal is to tell the player a story. If you have this really cool story that you want to grip someone with through the medium of them actually playing it or you have a deep message to tell through the multitude of various themes that a video game can use or you want to unsettle people with how a certain mentality can lead to ruin, then a large part of that is having a protagonist you already know well and is serving that story. Having the player make the key protagonist that can undermine everything you are going for doesn't serve the story, game, or player.

But if you have a world? If you have this place you want to draw people into and feel like they are living there? Then you want, nay need a self-insert protagonist. The player is adding a person to this world and thus shaping or even disrupting it by their very existence.
 

gstv87

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I guess the answer to all three bullet points is this:
-the universe doesn't care about you, and will most likely respond by eliminating you if need be.

that's why many self-inserts in media come out as so evident: the writer wants the character to be the hero, disregarding the rules of the universe when said universe prevents said writer from doing so.
 

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*Yes, Fates has a singular giant choice, but that isn't so much "deciding which faction to join" as it is "Which full price game did you buy?".
And my answer to that was "All three, sir!" because I'm a damn fool.

DQ3 has the most bare-bones version of this and shows it fantastically. You decide name, appearance, and personality (in the versions that have that silly mechanic), but the plot happens at the player and not so much because of the player.
Brew did say "minimal player agency". And I sort of agree with you on the mechanic being kinda silly, though for me it's because it doesn't have a strong effect. I generally just go with whatever, aside from having one female be Sexy (Vamp in the current localization) just because.
 

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And I sort of agree with you on the mechanic being kinda silly, though for me it's because it doesn't have a strong effect.
I like the mechanic, but I also really wanted to emphasize how your "personality" is "how your stats grow/change" and not anything you say or do (silent protagonist), which that is what makes it silly to me.

And my answer to that was "All three, sir!" because I'm a damn fool.
Complete aside, I have all three paths AND Smash 4. I feel like there should have been a fourth option that opens Smash Bros with you already selecting Corrin XD
 

Sword_of_Dusk

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I like the mechanic, but I also really wanted to emphasize how your "personality" is "how your stats grow/change" and not anything you say or do (silent protagonist), which that is what makes it silly to me.
Ah. I don't have an issue with personality affecting stat growth. I only wish it had more of an effect on the game.
 

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I guess the answer to all three bullet points is this:
-the universe doesn't care about you, and will most likely respond by eliminating you if need be.

that's why many self-inserts in media come out as so evident: the writer wants the character to be the hero, disregarding the rules of the universe when said universe prevents said writer from doing so.
Sounds like the real problem in your scenario is that the writer was stuck writing for a boring af universe.
 

gstv87

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@FirestormNeos I believe we can agree that Rey is definitely a self-insert, and Star Wars is a universe very much not "boring af".
but Rey did answer "I don't know! It just happened!" when asked "How did you do that?" with no previous evidence of even attempting it.
that was *the universe* trying to get rid of her, and she "succeeding" by the power of the pen.... if she had tried to outmaneuver an imperial fighter with no previous skill in piloting, she would have been blown out of the sky.
 

FirestormNeos

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that was *the universe* trying to get rid of her, and she "succeeding" by the power of the pen....
You say this as if Star Wars is supposed to be some sort of documentary. It's not; Star Wars does not exist beyond that pen you so erroneously dismiss as "falsehood" compared to "tHe uNiVeRsE" which is literally a fictional constuct.
 

gstv87

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Star Wars does not exist beyond that pen
indeed.
and that existence within the pen, had been established 40 years prior to this new pen trying to bypass that existence.
if it requires years of training and a physical sacrifice to obtain the power of reversing death, then IT REQUIRES years of training and a physical sacrifice to obtain the power of reversing death! *HAVING* that power overnight is bypassing the rules of the universe!
 

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