How you tackle Classes and Skills Progression/Customization

Kupotepo

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I want to have 20 skills for each class. Use that, and divide it by 100 levels, then you get 5. So that means, every 5 levels, that class will get a skill. So say your first skill will be at level 5. Thank you @Garler for that approach. However, I give five skills for each class right off at level 1. Total skills are 25 skills for each class.

I did the linear progression game, so it is not a blank state to customize a character.

Systems:
Skill Equip: this creates a little room for the player's freedom of choice.


How do you approach the progression? I hope the context is enough, so we can discuss how to handle this properly. Thank you. Granted on your point that depending on the plugins and the usefulness of skills and versatile of the possible system.
 

Black Pagan

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I would approach this in 3 Steps :

- Classify skills according to being Passive, Active, Support or Unique.
(These classifications would obviously be different for different classes, This is what makes each Class unique)

- Rank Skills according to 3 Ratings - Early Game, Mid Game and Late Game.
(Depending on the Rank, You would then look for the right Levels to assign them)

- Test Game Balance to make sure Skills belong in the right Tier
(This really depends on Enemy Troops and their Difficulty. Sometimes, You over-estimate the Skill's ability and assign them later on or make it over-powered by assigning them too early, Which would result in Player just mowing down the enemies. So testing would be required)

I would not really include the Beginner Skills among these selection of Skills. I would work on them separately, Just to avoid the Confusion. You wouldn't want to give the Player too many Beginner skills, It ruins the Fun early on.
 
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Frostorm

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My game's level cap is 50. Every level they automatically gain 1 JP & 3 SP. JP is used to increase their rank/tier of a certain discipline/school of magic, each one being a skill tree. There's a total of 5 tiers for each with each tier costing more JP than the last. So tier 1 costs 1 JP, tier 2 costs 2 JP, all the way to tier 5 at 5 JP. Learning the tiers themselves will grants "boring" passives (like +3/6/9/12/15% Frost damage for Cryomancy) but each tier also unlocks 3 skills: A utility skill, an offensive skill, and a passive skill. Each of these cost 1 SP to learn. You can choose to spend all 3 of your SP that level to learn these or save your SP to increase your raw Stats (stat allocation). Some players may not find all 3 skills to be necessary for their build, and that's fine! By max level, you'll be able to master (reach tier 5) 3 skill trees of your choice (3*(1+2+3+4+5))=45 JP, which leaves 5 JP left over. This can conveniently be spent to unlock "Spellweaving" (which costs 5 JP), which offers hybrid skills that have requirements from multiple disciplines/skill trees.

Alternatively, a player could simply go up to tier 4 on 3 skill trees and have a 4th skill tree at tier 5. Or they could get 5 skill trees to tier 4, but forgo "Spellweaving".

Assuming the player goes the traditional route of reaching tier 5 in 3 skill trees, they would have access to 45 skills (3*3*5). This leaves 105 SP left to spend on raw stat boosts. Upgrading a single stat by 1 point costs 1 SP. They can spend it on Max HP, Max MP, Strength, Intellect, Dexterity, Constitution, Willpower, or Speed. Max HP & Max MP will increase by 5 & 3 per point respectively (instead of +1 like the other stats). Of course, keep in mind there will be a plethora of "Spellweaving" skills available, each costing 1 SP like any other skill. So it's totally up to the player if they want a wider selection of skills or more raw stats.

Screenshot:
1594404278721.png

The lone icon on the top of the skill tree is the "tier", which acts as a gate for the skills in the rows below. (I will gray them out more when I figure out how) As you can see, there are 3 skills in each row, with each row representing a tier. Notice how the very top skill (the highlighted one) has 0/5 whereas all the other icons have 0/1. This represents the tier level, with a maximum of tier 5, if it isn't clear enough on the description window on the right (the "1★ Great Weaponry" for example).

PS: I tried to design skills so that the ones in the later tiers aren't necessarily stronger, but rather more useful. All skills' damage scale off of the user's stats so even a tier 1 skill will remain useful by end game. The game will also feature a total of 12-16 skill trees to choose from. I haven't decided on the exact number yet, but it will fall within that range.

Edit: Please ignore the fact that the character's name is "Orc male" lol. I was working on character sprites for the other races and hadn't gotten around to the portraits yet...

- Test Game Balance to make sure Skills belong in the right Tier
(This really depends on Enemy Troops and their Difficulty. Sometimes, You over-estimate the Skill's ability and assign them later on or make it over-powered by assigning them too early, Which would result in Player just mowing down the enemies. So testing would be required)
Yea I feel you on this. I know for a fact I will probably end up switching some skills around and put them in different tiers. Especially since I have 5 tiers, sometimes it's hard to gauge if a skill belongs in tier 2 vs tier 3 or tier 3 vs tier 4.
 
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Solar_Flare

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I haven't finalized it yet, but I currently have a few skills gained on level up at various levels for each class, and others can be purchased from skill shops. For skills at level up, I think it's generally about one every five or ten levels, plus some amount of starter skills at level 1. The specific skills aren't yet filled in for all classes, though.

Each class will probably have different passive traits as well as different skill pools to choose from, so selecting which skills to learn is the character customization, I guess.
 

Wavelength

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I like mixing this up depending on the game, and it definitely depends on the structure (if it's different than a standard epic RPG) and on your other mechanics in the game as well. Here are five different systems I've implemented in my own (complete or unfinished) games in the past, with the type of game I happened to design it for noted:

Skill Upgrade Bonuses (traditional epic RPG)
Using damage skills to defeat enemies, or using other skills in clutch situations, would award a small number of Power Points (PP) to a character's skill. Accomplishing bonus battle objectives (defeating 3 enemies with a single action, winning a combat within 3 turns, winning without taking damage, etc.) would award a large amount of bonus PP the player could spend on any skill for any character. As a skill's PP increased, the skill would become more powerful or receive bonus effects, and at certain levels additional bonuses would be awarded. In addition to bonus stats and items, new skills were one of the these bonuses - so characters would learn new skills by increasing other skills' PP.

Perfect Round Bonus (short, replayable, arcade-style game)
In an arcade-style game I made where battles were more of a test/punishment for failing "arcadey" memory and speed tasks, I awarded additional battle skills as a reward for a single perfect round of play. Therefore, scoring perfect rounds early on made mistakes later in the game less punishing.

Learn by Leveling Up (open-ended, game-like RPG)
There's absolutely nothing with using a tried-and-true system if you implement it in thoughtful ways, and it's what I went with for a relatively short, very game-like RPG I made. Characters had completely unique skills, of which they'd start with 3 at level one, and learn one additional skill for each Level Up until about Level 10 (which was far beyond where most players would be at the end of the game). Made every level-up feel exciting!

Beat a Boss, Choose a Skill (short, replayable RPG which has no "regular encounters")
Characters would each earn a Skill Credit after clearing a Boss fight. Directly after the boss fight there would always be a skill shop where you could spend that Skill Credit (it's use it or lose it; you can't save them up) to choose from one of three different skills that are available for that character. You don't get another chance to learn the skills you don't choose (until the final level of the game). Part of the appeal is that choosing different types of skills throughout the game could lead to entirely different battle strategies.

Design Your Own Skills (open-ended, game-like RPG)
This is without a doubt my favorite system I have ever created, although the amount of design and implementation work have both been tremendous. Throughout the game, you earn "building blocks" in a few different ways, and the player can put those building blocks in (almost) any combination to build spells. These blocks include different levels of Power and Cooldown, different Scopes/Targeting methods, different Conditions under which they can be cast, and of course different Primary and Secondary Effects. (They also get to name the spell and choose an icon for it.) Some building blocks can be used by anyone; a majority of blocks are restricted to certain classes. As a balance mechanism against building ridiculously powerful spells that have no drawbacks, each block has a certain Capacity Cost (CC), and the total cost of the spell is the sum of each block's CC. Characters' maximum CC (which must be greater than the total CC of spells they have equipped for battle) increases with each level, allowing players to create more powerful and useful skills for their characters throughout the game (or to equip a wider diversity of different, less individually-powerful skills). The amount of freedom for creativity and expression here are sky-high... the potential for balance issues is nearly that high, as well.
 

Frostorm

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Design Your Own Skills (open-ended, game-like RPG)
This is without a doubt my favorite system I have ever created, although the amount of design and implementation work have both been tremendous. Throughout the game, you earn "building blocks" in a few different ways, and the player can put those building blocks in (almost) any combination to build spells. These blocks include different levels of Power and Cooldown, different Scopes/Targeting methods, different Conditions under which they can be cast, and of course different Primary and Secondary Effects. (They also get to name the spell and choose an icon for it.) Some building blocks can be used by anyone; a majority of blocks are restricted to certain classes. As a balance mechanism against building ridiculously powerful spells that have no drawbacks, each block has a certain Capacity Cost (CC), and the total cost of the spell is the sum of each block's CC. Characters' maximum CC (which must be greater than the total CC of spells they have equipped for battle) increases with each level, allowing players to create more powerful and useful skills for their characters throughout the game (or to equip a wider diversity of different, less individually-powerful skills). The amount of freedom for creativity and expression here are sky-high... the potential for balance issues is nearly that high, as well.
I really wanted to incorporate this for my "Spellweaving" skills, but as you mentioned, it would require so much work! Maybe I'll save this as a stretch goal or something lol. I really enjoyed this one Skyrim mod I had installed which was basically this system you described. It was so much fun! Btw, did you end up finishing a game that utilized this system?

PS: What category would my current system fall under?
 

Wavelength

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It was so much fun! Btw, did you end up finishing a game that utilized this system?
I started designing it about 2 years ago, and started working on it last year (as a second priority to my "main" project which is almost finished). The spellbuilding system and battle system are very far along, but the rest of the game is still in its infancy. I'm looking at 2022 as a (very optimistic) minimum!

PS: What category would my current system fall under?
My list was not meant to be exhaustive (it's just a list of things I've done) and yours doesn't fit into any of the types I have used. I would classify your system as a combination of two separate but similar Specialization mechanics (using JP to unlock bonuses, and SP to equip them, essentially). The SP part of that system is similar to the specialization mechanic in Guild Wars, which is a game I really liked (although GW let you re-spec freely as often as you wished).
 

Frostorm

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I started designing it about 2 years ago, and started working on it last year (as a second priority to my "main" project which is almost finished). The spellbuilding system and battle system are very far along, but the rest of the game is still in its infancy. I'm looking at 2022 as a (very optimistic) minimum!
I wish my dev skills were more advanced than it currently is. I, unfortunately, have to face the reality that pulling off such a system wouldn't be feasible with my current programming knowledge. Designing it on paper I can do, but unless there's a miracle plugin for this, idk how I'd be able to implement it lol. Hats off to you for undertaking such a project.

My list was not meant to be exhaustive
Lol oops, idk how I missed such an obvious oversight.:kaoblush:

(although GW let you re-spec freely as often as you wished)
And yea I feel like a re-spec mechanic would be essential for my type of system. What are your thoughts on respeccing anytime vs only at very limited/specific points in the game? Or perhaps making it purely cost (gold?) based.
 
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Wavelength

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And yea I feel like a re-spec mechanic would be essential for my type of system. What are your thoughts on respeccing anytime vs only at very limited/specific points in the game? Or perhaps making it purely cost (gold?) based.
I see advantages and disadvantages in both styles.

When you can re-spec at will, it allows the player a ton of freedom to try new styles, find out what they love, test out their crazy ideas without any anxiety, and even go deep into specialized builds to counter certain enemies/bosses/other players.

When you can't re-spec at all, it lends a huge feeling of impact to each decision the player makes, strengthens and sharpens each character's identity in the mind of the player (or in the case of a 1-character party, sharpens the player's own sense of identity), and rewards long-term planning as the player charts out their course far in advance and slowly pursues it point by point.

When you can re-spec but it costs money or other resources to do so, the costs usually prohibit the player from freely experimenting with new strategies or specializing to counter a specific enemy/boss/player. You end up with a very similar look and feel to No Re-Specs, with the added benefits of being able to undo mistakes (such as clicking the wrong skill to learn) and being able to opt out of a specialization you're finding that you don't enjoy as much as you thought you would, but also the drawback of slightly weaker character identity and reduced need to plan long-term.
  • Only being able to re-spec at certain points in the game is very similar to this, as well.

I like the ability to freely re-spec in MMO's and other games where you play a single character (since doing the same things for hundreds of hours can get boring to some players). However, in games where you control an entire party, I consider this "designer's choice" - either style has advantages and it's not even all that dependent on the game's other dynamics (aside from whether speccing for a certain encounter is "abusive" or clever and fun gameplay).
 
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xDRAGOONx

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In response to your linear progression I would say that not all level gains will take the same. So in this sense you might want to put more distance between the skills at the early levels, and group the skills at the later levels closer together.
 

Kupotepo

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In response to your linear progression I would say that not all level gains will take the same. So in this sense you might want to put more distance between the skills at the early levels, and group the skills at the later levels closer together.
Yeah, haha, the experience balance is another issue. Yeah, I will take multiple tests to make it right.

So in this sense you might want to put more distance between the skills at the early levels.
Thank you for your advice. Sorry for not providing more information about this. I separate the passive, active, support, or counter-attack skills in different classes like @Black Pagan mention on top.

@Frostorm, thank you for sharing your great ideas with us. Those are amazing skill trees.

JP is used to increase their rank/tier of a certain discipline/school of magic, each one being a skill tree.
I forget about the JP Yanfly system. I see someone who did that like you. I think you are smart to approach this way to control the economy of skills, so it is hopefully balanced and smooth. My approach is more risk of player abuse the system than your thinking for sure. I plan to the player to gain 5 points of JP for every level up and the player can use that point to buy new skills.

I see in DQ. The character learn new skill at level 2 and from there every 2 levels up the actor gets new skill.
FF progression is 2 levels up in order to obtain new skill, 3 levels up, and 5 levels up and start again with 2 levels generally. Since everyone here is nice and supportive.
 
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woootbm

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What I always try to do is make each level feel important, like as much as a milestone as possible. This means I have significantly less levels in my games than others (in Oni you can only gain 4 levels total, from 10 to 14, and in the next game it’ll be 1 to 10). This will change if I ever get brave enough to make some kind of 30+ hour epic, but even then I likely wouldn’t go above level 50.

To me what’s fun about a leveling system is getting to see palpable improvements to your character. When a game is just giving you +1-5% improvement (or even less) per level, each level isn’t really being looked forward to. And when a game is just throwing levels at the player like candy, it loses it’s meaning all the more. You end up needing to level 5, 10, or even 20 times to actually see growth. So why not just reduce those down? Make that one level worth your previous 5, 10, 20.

In Oni, the player gets a powerful new skill each level. The game is extremely short and simple, so I couldn’t really put too much into it without it eating up too much of the game. I’m doing a talent point system next game. Each level you get one point, but that point makes a huge difference. You could choose something like 10% crit, or your fire debuff now destroys most of the armor on its target. Big, chunky improvements every level to make the player really look forward to that next point.

But I also like when games gives you crazy character growth (I tend to look to Diablo 2 as an example). I want the player to feel like they are breaking the game, and then worry about balancing the game during polish phase.
 

ItsAri

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On a personal project I've been working on, skills acquired are by JP. But since some skills are Passive and some skills are active, I gave the option to equip active and passive skills for strategic purposes.
 

Frostorm

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I gave the option to equip active and passive skills for strategic purposes.
This is a design choice I've been contemplating lately. My game utilizes YEP_EquipBattleSkills so the player only has X amount of skill slots that increase +1 every time they gain a tier in one of the disciplines/skill trees. I debating whether to require passives to be equipped or simply allow learned passives to be active w/o having to equip them. This lets the skill slots to be used solely for active skills.

Which design choice do you guys think is better?
 

FirestormNeos

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My project's class system can be summed up in precisely three words: "Fighting Game Roster."

All the classes are at full power right from the get-go, and you can switch classes between dungeons (or between fights; I haven't decided on which one yet) with ease.

The goal my project handling classes like this is so players can experiment with the classes without being punished with a lack of progress; as a result, players won't feel "stuck" with their class, so which one the player uses becomes purely a matter of preference (or finding the most overpowered class for any given situation).
 

xDRAGOONx

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This is a design choice I've been contemplating lately. My game utilizes YEP_EquipBattleSkills so the player only has X amount of skill slots that increase +1 every time they gain a tier in one of the disciplines/skill trees. I debating whether to require passives to be equipped or simply allow learned passives to be active w/o having to equip them. This lets the skill slots to be used solely for active skills.

Which design choice do you guys think is better?
I Guess it would depend on just how quickly slots are unlocked and how many available slots vs passive and active skills. I guess it's not bad to force the player into a situation where they have to decide between certain skills but if your skill tree is already forcing the player to choose between a and b per tier, I dint think they should have to choose after that which one to use between learned skills.
 

Frostorm

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I guess it's not bad to force the player into a situation where they have to decide between certain skills but if your skill tree is already forcing the player to choose between a and b per tier, I dint think they should have to choose after that which one to use between learned skills.
Ah, well they get 3 SP per level so they could grab all 3 (utility + offensive + passive) skills per tier if they wish. As for the number of skill slots, they start with 2 but gain +1 for every tier they upgrade and another +3 if/when they grab "Spellweaving". So they would end up with a minimum of 20 (2 + 15 + 3) skill slots. This is if I didn't require passives to use skill slots. If I did, I would probably give them around 30 instead of 20. The opportunity cost of grabbing every skill is that you'll have less SP to spend on raw stat allocation.
 

Kupotepo

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Thank you @Wavelength, @Black Pagan, @Solar_Flare, @ItsAri, @woootbm, and @FirestormNeos for your contribution and giving me advice.

Thank you @Frostorm, @xDRAGOONx and @Wavelength for keeping the great discussion going and I learn so many factors that I have to think about when I did the math.

@Frostorm, just say WoW mechanic, I think he will get the clue. What is why people that game, right? lol:D Like many of us tried to imitate FF Pokemon, DQ, and Octopath Traveler. I think it is a smart idea because remember how many people put to work to do this and think about this system in those big companies. Plus, there are many plugins that encourage that.

Picasso joked “good artists copy, great artists steal.” So do not feel bad. We need inspiration somewhere, right? "It’s just a constant rehash of existing or old ideas. What’s new is how these old ideas are put together, mixed, mashed and clashed, and that’s what makes things creative, new and special." Before people eat me.

On a personal project I've been working on, skills acquired are by JP. But since some skills are Passive and some skills are active, I gave the option to equip active and passive skills for strategic purposes.
How do you spread out the skills and passives throughout your game?
 
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HumanNinjaToo

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I don't think you necessarily need to divide skill gains evenly among levels. Looking back on most rpg's I've played over the years, while many of them cap levels at 99, most of the character's skills are learned by level 30~40 (or whatever is considered to be the 'end game' level).

In my current game project I've tried to structure the gains from leveling up so that each level is impactful and makes a difference. For that reason I decided to go with a somewhat small level cap of 15. I have each class set to learn 16 skills for battle, 3 of which are a kind of 'limit break' skill. Each character will start with 2 of these skills, so pretty much every level will see them learning a new skill. I feel like with what the skills do as part of the class kit goes along well with the rate at which they'll be added as the game progresses.

How slowly or quickly your characters gets additional tools for their kit is one of the things that seems to get overlooked a lot of the time. I plan on starting the my game with all three characters that you'll get, so each one starting with 2 skills (plus learning how they interact with each other) shouldn't be overwhelming to the average player, and it should still provide enough tools to have fun for the first few battles until the next level comes along and additional skills are learned. I am planning for the first part of the game to be a learning experience, adding one additional skill by the time you would defeat the first boss. Afterward, each dungeon would see the player getting two new skills before the boss fight. I feel like two levels, and 6 new battle skills (2 * each character) is enough progression to keep the battle mechanics moving forward while not overwhelming the player.

I figured I would be as straightforward as possible with the active battle skills by having the characters learn them automatically. Then I wanted to give the player a bit more freedom when it comes to learning passive skills.

The more convoluted part of my skill system comes in the form of passives. I have about 30 passive skills designed for each character/class, however this number may be whittled down the more I playtest different combinations of passives. This is where I wanted to give the player the freedom to customize the characters. The passives are split between two trees that have a lot of sway over how the characters will react in battle to certain situations. For this, I went with the Job Point system by Yanfly. Purchasing certain passives will prevent other passives from being learned. The plan is to have these two passive skill trees to basically cancel each other out. For example, each tree would be split into tiers, so if you get the tier one passive from tree A you can no longer get the tier 1 passive from tree B; however, you could still get the tier 2 passive from either tree A or tree B, but not both. So the player could either mix and match to create a kind of hybrid build, or they could choose one tree over the other to completely specialize the character. This is why I will most likely whittle down the amount of passives for each character, 15 passives in each tree is probably too many.

I've tried to make class progression as simple as I can, while still providing some limited customization. My game will only have three characters, so three distinct classes. Going this route provides a simplicity, but also requires that I get it as close to perfect as possible because there is no room to hide, so to speak.
 

Kupotepo

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Looking back on most rpg's I've played over the years, while many of them cap levels at 99, most of the character's skills are learned by level 30~40 (or whatever is considered to be the 'end game' level).
If I understand you correctly, I usually do not. I should quickly release many skills at level 30~40 to make it fun for players. Is that your suggestion? Thank you for your time to keep explaining to me.

For that reason I decided to go with a somewhat small level cap of 15. I have each class set to learn 16 skills for battle, 3 of which are a kind of 'limit break' skill.
Thank you for sharing with me. You have a limit break in your game. That is amazing.

I plan on starting the my game with all three characters that you'll get, so each one starting with 2 skills (plus learning how they interact with each other) shouldn't be overwhelming to the average player, and it should still provide enough tools to have fun for the first few battles until the next level comes along and additional skills are learned.
ok, it seems your focus is about not to overload players.

For this, I went with the Job Point system by Yanfly. Purchasing certain passives will prevent other passives from being learned. The plan is to have these two passive skill trees to basically cancel each other out.
Ok, you do a choice system of skills.
 
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