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kirbwarrior

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"List your red flags."
After reading this, TC seems to be one of those people who goes full 100 when opinions come up. I could understand how this thread might have been a boiling over thing, but it feels just like the first post they made in that thread. I actually agree with some of the points they made, but I want to discuss them, and very importantly;

My opinions are NOT going to change
Understand why they are my opinion, understand others' opinions, and even be open to realizing that an opinion I think I have isn't actually what I think.

But most of all, you're not worth the effort of hating. Hating takes a lot of work and effort and I'd rather see you as a human being.
 

gstv87

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you know,... this could all be toppled either way, in favor, or against, if you would just conceptualize the problem in maybe four words?
"I hate strawberry ice-cream", "My right foot itches",... or whatever.

simple words.

if people persist on hating on something when you're saying otherwise, maybe your point isn't getting through, or, you're wrong.
let's assume you're right, so that leaves your point not getting through.
have you tried rephrasing it as something direct and specific?
if the point is still debated after being presented as something very specific, either the point is nonsense, or it can be dismissed with a reason for it to be what it is.

.....if you then won't accept it's reason to be, for it being in conflict with your own preferences, that's another thing.
 

Beewo

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Ok after reading through ops post I have to admit I'm a bit confused. Am I understanding it right that they are mad that when animals or similiar are represented they are more humanoid than animal?

Lets use the mouse as an example. Op is mad a mouse humanoid is shown as a normal human with rat ears, maybe whiskers and a tail, whereas they want them to be shown as the picture below with a more full characterisation of what a mouse looks like fur and all?

Sorry, just wanna see if I understod the main point correctly.
 

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Kes

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@Beewo I think your assumption is correct, though over time the OP has shifted ground a bit. However, OP has also said that animal depictions should be more realistic and less humanoid. I don't see how that squares with giving a mouse a tunic and sword, but never dared ask OP how to resolve that one for fear of provoking all-out war.

OP has also complained that the personalities, likes, dislikes, ambitions etc. of animals are really disguised human characteristics. That devs have failed to present animals "as they are". This side-steps the problem that, as humans, we cannot, by definition, know what e.g. a mouse thinks, feels etc. Whatever we write will of necessity be a human projection of what this might be like, however sympathetic we try and make the depiction.

Therefore, what the OP has been asking for over several years is something that no human being can provide. Hence the complete stalemate.
 

Iron_Brew

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Honestly, I'm just done. I'm done with all of your BS. I'm done being told I just have to get over it and brainwash myself into just accepting human narcissism in media.

NO!

My opinions are NOT going to change no matter how much people insist that I change them. Modern media is always going to come off as narcissistic as long as it contains selfish morals, double standards and insists on shoe-horning in humanization where it doesn't belong. Witcher 3 is made worse for me not just because of the immense ammount of wasted potential and the insistance on humanization despite being a MISANTHROPIC GAME, but the hundreds of people DEFENDING humanization in this and other games. I even heard someone say "it's an artistic choice."

NO!

In my experience, it has NEVER been an artistic choice. It is almost ALWAYS used to pander or through the delusion that it makes the characters more "relatable." And speaking of which, you guys CONSTANTLY get at me for "only caring about looks," when that isn't the case. In fact, I find it ironic that you criticize me for that, yet stand by the idea that characters just have to LOOK human because that makes them more relatable

you

bleeping

HYPOCRITES!!!

The entire foundation of the very BLEEPING THING you guys defend is LOOKS! I hate it when "non-human characters" look like humans not because of what I want them to look like, but because it's shallow AF, and comes off as narcissistic. It implies that creatures are only allowed to be "good" if they LOOK like "ree-lay-tuh-bul hoomans." And considering the BS you guys spew from your fingers about how "oh, we're SOOO intelligent, and we're the only creatures who are this smart in our own little bubble, so it MUST be this way in a FANTASY universe" tells me you actually buy into that crap. Just because humans are "smarter" than other creatures doesn't mean animals are incapable of things like fear, sadness, joy, etc.

And they are absolutely capable of more than just "Humans Bad! Kill Humans!" But, no! Apparently, that is how you guys think stories SHOULD be written. Only creatures that LOOK like humans can be good and everything else (with the exception of cats, dogs and horses) can ONLY be portrayed as human-killing monstrosities, even in a game that's SUPPOSED to be pro-environment or misanthropic! Even if I'm SUPPOSED to care about these creatures, media simply refuses to portray animals or nature in any other way, and it disgust me so often not just to see this, but to see people DEFEND this kind of writing with logic that PROVES MY BLEEPING POINT ON HUMANITY THESE DAYS!!!

And, no, don't give me that "it's fictional" crap. Jaws was fictional, and THAT influenced shark killing. When a message is hammered in your head, such as "nature is inherantly evil and antagonistic," people start to believe it, and when the only media that says otherwise is rejected as "propaganda" and stuff, then a message like that just festers into a pandemic concept.

And, oh yeah, "it's fictional! I can somehow buy a creature that is somehow completely unrelated to humans, yet looks EXACTLY like a human but with animal ears/horns and a tail, but I can't buy an anthropomorphic animal as anything other than an inherantly savage race of killers." Just no! Also, "kemonomimis are totally different from humans, as are elves, but anthros are just humans with animal heads." The double standards are infuriating!

Oh, and to whoever said they hated furries because of TWO bad people and myself, let me just end by saying this: Most furries are not like either of us. Some of the nicest people I know are furries, and they're nothing like them or me. So if THAT is your problem, hate the two who assaulted you. Hate me, because I honestly hate you too. But do NOT be bigotted towards furries as a whole. By your logic, I should hate non-furries because most non-furries I've met have been awful, but I'm STILL nnot bigotted towards non-furries. So, again, don't judge thousands upon thousands of people by three individuals.

I'm done, okay? I'm just done wiith this place. Good bye, and bleep off.

Imagine being so selfish and narcissistic that you insult a group of people and estrange yourself from a community you've hung out with for years because they don't agree with 100% of your stance on the portrayal of fictional creatures in fiction.

I sincerely hope you reflect, and that whatever disease is ravaging your ability to convey your thoughts and opinions clears up.

Best of luck.
 
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gstv87

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@Kes based on one conversation I had with them, I guess they want characters to behave more like Milo & Otis.
Although I can't say for sure, because the point in question was "there are no games where you don't fight animals, as a human", and "there are no games where one won't have to fight", and "there are no games where the enemy is another human", to which I replied with 4 games where you fight robots and humans, as a human, two of which have the option to avoid fighting altogether.

it's like they want the argument to be constrained to the JRPG scene, specifically to games involving nekos or furries, and then demand that those be made realistic.
.....to *which* I replied with "It's like wanting porn to not diminish women..... it's porn! .. what did you expect?"
 

TheAM-Dol

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"It's like wanting porn to not diminish women..... it's porn! .. what did you expect?"
How dare you denigrate my hard working women. You know, I have a lot of respect for our working women, and I'm starting to think that everyone doesn't have the least bit of respect for these girls. And to that, all I have to say to you is: how dare you.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a date with Yuki Takeuchi. Good day to you.
 

Ratatattat

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Although I can't say for sure, because the point in question was "there are no games where you don't fight animals, as a human", and "there are no games where one won't have to fight", and "there are no games where the enemy is another human", to which I replied with 4 games where you fight robots and humans, as a human, two of which have the option to avoid fighting altogether.
Yeah I read through that other thread last night, and it kinda seems like they have made up their mind that every game is like x, or no games are like y, when really they're only talking about a constrained collection of media that they conveniently curate based on whether or not the media in question supports their confirmation bias.

Like, while reading their posts I thought of several examples of shows, movies, and/or games that would seem to cater to their specifications, so the only two possibilities here are either 1) they've never heard of or engaged in the particular media I'm thinking of, or 2) they have, but have come up with more excuses and shifted goalposts to justify why they're actually still not good enough. I dearly hope it's the first option. But I also fear we may have someone who simply wants to feel wronged, no matter what, on our hands.
 

XPKobold

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Honestly, I'm just done. I'm done with all of your BS. I'm done being told I just have to get over it and brainwash myself into just accepting human narcissism in media.

NO!

My opinions are NOT going to change no matter how much people insist that I change them. Modern media is always going to come off as narcissistic as long as it contains selfish morals, double standards and insists on shoe-horning in humanization where it doesn't belong. Witcher 3 is made worse for me not just because of the immense ammount of wasted potential and the insistance on humanization despite being a MISANTHROPIC GAME, but the hundreds of people DEFENDING humanization in this and other games. I even heard someone say "it's an artistic choice."

NO!

In my experience, it has NEVER been an artistic choice. It is almost ALWAYS used to pander or through the delusion that it makes the characters more "relatable." And speaking of which, you guys CONSTANTLY get at me for "only caring about looks," when that isn't the case. In fact, I find it ironic that you criticize me for that, yet stand by the idea that characters just have to LOOK human because that makes them more relatable

you

bleeping

HYPOCRITES!!!

The entire foundation of the very BLEEPING THING you guys defend is LOOKS! I hate it when "non-human characters" look like humans not because of what I want them to look like, but because it's shallow AF, and comes off as narcissistic. It implies that creatures are only allowed to be "good" if they LOOK like "ree-lay-tuh-bul hoomans." And considering the BS you guys spew from your fingers about how "oh, we're SOOO intelligent, and we're the only creatures who are this smart in our own little bubble, so it MUST be this way in a FANTASY universe" tells me you actually buy into that crap. Just because humans are "smarter" than other creatures doesn't mean animals are incapable of things like fear, sadness, joy, etc.

And they are absolutely capable of more than just "Humans Bad! Kill Humans!" But, no! Apparently, that is how you guys think stories SHOULD be written. Only creatures that LOOK like humans can be good and everything else (with the exception of cats, dogs and horses) can ONLY be portrayed as human-killing monstrosities, even in a game that's SUPPOSED to be pro-environment or misanthropic! Even if I'm SUPPOSED to care about these creatures, media simply refuses to portray animals or nature in any other way, and it disgust me so often not just to see this, but to see people DEFEND this kind of writing with logic that PROVES MY BLEEPING POINT ON HUMANITY THESE DAYS!!!

And, no, don't give me that "it's fictional" crap. Jaws was fictional, and THAT influenced shark killing. When a message is hammered in your head, such as "nature is inherantly evil and antagonistic," people start to believe it, and when the only media that says otherwise is rejected as "propaganda" and stuff, then a message like that just festers into a pandemic concept.

And, oh yeah, "it's fictional! I can somehow buy a creature that is somehow completely unrelated to humans, yet looks EXACTLY like a human but with animal ears/horns and a tail, but I can't buy an anthropomorphic animal as anything other than an inherantly savage race of killers." Just no! Also, "kemonomimis are totally different from humans, as are elves, but anthros are just humans with animal heads." The double standards are infuriating!

Oh, and to whoever said they hated furries because of TWO bad people and myself, let me just end by saying this: Most furries are not like either of us. Some of the nicest people I know are furries, and they're nothing like them or me. So if THAT is your problem, hate the two who assaulted you. Hate me, because I honestly hate you too. But do NOT be bigotted towards furries as a whole. By your logic, I should hate non-furries because most non-furries I've met have been awful, but I'm STILL nnot bigotted towards non-furries. So, again, don't judge thousands upon thousands of people by three individuals.

I'm done, okay? I'm just done wiith this place. Good bye, and bleep off.
Considering i read several of your rants on here as well as the locked list your red flags thread that members valid reasons and you went off on them.

You actually want a game that has non-humans which can be done but the hardest to pull off considering from your rant you want to have a game with just anthro characters which is already a niche in itself and not as easy as it sounds. (And there are many reasons for this.)

There's a valid reason why humans work so well the player can relate to them as well as having a balanced structure i see both human and non-human characters as playable.

Most likely haven't played enough rpg's on here considering there are a few on here i recall have anthro characters.

I can say one thing for sure that attitude won't take you far in your career Benny Jackdaw.
 

ATT_Turan

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Ok after reading through ops post I have to admit I'm a bit confused. Am I understanding it right that they are mad that when animals or similiar are represented they are more humanoid than animal?
That's a piece of it. The other piece is Benny is upset he can't find media where the main characters are distinctly non-human.

And then there's all kinds of philosophical stuff about how animals are portrayed/interacted with in media, much of which is objectively wrong.
 

HexMozart88

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I was actually thinking of reporting him to get him banned for a while now because in every single thread he participates in, it devolves into him ranting, insulting people, and the thread gets locked. And then the last thread, he decided to take it one step further and harass people after the fact. This is someone we really don't need here, so goodbye, Benny. Have a nice life and please don't kill anyone.
 

woootbm

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I feel like the guy was RP'ing as a crazy NPC from his own game because what the heck was he on about? The kind of NPC who gives you a quest that if you actually do it you get the:
cover6.jpg
 

Bex

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Please no cancel culture.
**** happens. Mods Moderate and all seems well.

This is a lame Topic and i skipped most of it. More interesting stuff in this Forums to find.
:kaothx:
 
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Iron_Brew

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Please no cancel culture.
**** happens. Mods Moderate and all seems well.

This is a lame Topic and i skipped most of it. More interesting stuff in this Forums to find.
:kaothx:

There's a difference between cancel culture and a person doing ****ty things and people saying 'lol that is ****'.

But yes I agree, tons of fun to be had around here!
 

Tai_MT

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I'd like to reply to this in my usual fashion (slightly incendiary, mostly logical).

1. As a furry (closeted or otherwise), I completely understand the hate furries get. It's why I don't associate with other furries... Because furries are freakin' strange and often AWFUL. Most often they aren't "people who appreciate the art", but are instead some sort of mentally unstable individuals hiding their mental instability in a culture that accepts and promotes that instability.

Your rant ABOUT furries certainly hasn't changed my opinion on furries, nor has it managed to paint them in a much better light than people currently portray them.

This is coming from SOMEONE WHO IS A FURRY and CHOOSES NOT TO ASSOCIATE WITH FURRIES because of the... frankly anti-social, narcissistic, and outright misanthropic behavior they exhibit.

2. The... complaints are frankly really weird and difficult to unpack for most people. Myself included, and I'm one of those guys that can understand "The Time Cube" guy and all his logic (what he says is admittedly crazy... but it makes 100% perfect sense to me, take from that what you will).

A "furry", by definition is already "an animal that acts like a human". You simply cannot have a furry without assigning it human traits. Personalities, mannerisms, etcetera. Most furries are anthropomorphized to such a degree that they're animals with human characteristics... like having opposable thumbs, human mammalian sexual features (including putting Mountains on Lizards!), and even eyesight.

Even the "Redwall" series did this to an extensive degree.

So, there's no such thing as a "furry" media, and never will be, that is not "human biased". It will always be that way.

Heck, if we wanted to go to the logical realistic conclusion...

Even what YOU THINK they should think and act like... IS YOU ASCRIBING HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS AND MOTIVATIONS to the animals in questions. It is your own human bias ascribing these traits and thoughts and motivations.

So, quite frankly, it's a silly stance to take in the first place that is utterly devoid of reality.

3. I still have no idea why you hate The Witcher. It's not a game for me, and I don't like it, but you know... whatever floats other peoples' boats. I like watching people review The Witcher, because the concept of it is interesting to me... but it's just not my thing in any other way. I suspect I'd love the books, even if I dislike the games. But, I'd have to tear myself away from Light Novels about "Isekai" harems involving kemonomimi's to even start something like that. And, hey, I'm sorry, but I just love historically accurate portrayals of harems... and animal features on people like fluffy ears and tails and their little animal traits.

4. I'm also not sure why a person joins a forum on game design just to talk about what they prefer in media. Granted, there are topics to discuss other things that aren't game design... but I've been operating under the assumption that we're all building the games we want to play or enjoy. I'm here for the discussions on video games, most often than not. I tend to ignore anything that doesn't relate to that... because I can just join a Discord or something if I want some off-topic discussions on random nonsense due to being bored.

Time and place for things. I prefer to leave things in their proper places, rather than drag them into places they don't belong. Keeps my life simpler.

5. I'm also not sure why you're getting so many "good riddance!" posts in here. I don't think I've disliked anyone in my life so much (other than perhaps my father) that I'd say that. Even then... man... I feel like some people hold negative feelings in themselves just for the sake of holding onto them. Like... what is to be gained from getting angry? Or upset? It just feels bad, so I don't know why people bother. I don't know why there's a personal investment in what people say to each other here.

But, maybe I'm the exception. I really only get upset when people start trying to force me to defend things I don't believe in and have never said I do (gaslighting YAY!) or when it becomes glaringly obvious that they don't care to have a debate and are merely "skimming" my posts to find things to reply to (in short, they don't care to listen, only care that someone else is listening to them. Even if they're wrong. Even if they're being unreasonable. Even if they're being childish).

Probably why I tend to upset people here. I don't give two craps about the feelings of random strangers. I care about the topic at hand and discussing that topic. Get upset on your own time. If you got time to get upset at what a random stranger says or thinks, you got time to do something more productive.
---
With that said:

Sorry to see you go. Always disappointing when people decide to leave, but it is what it is. I hope things work out better for you wherever you go from here. Maybe you'll find some people who understand and agree with you. Who knows?

As has been said a million times before:

The future is what we make it.
 

Touchfuzzy

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Are you sure this isn't about me banning you for a week after you started harassing someone in DMs after they told you to stop talking to them after the Red Flags thread was closed and you couldn't let it go?
 

Trihan

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Nick coming in with the M. Night Shyamalan level plot twists.
 

CleanWater

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I hope you were not with Breath of Fire series in mind when writing this. It's a great game with a lot of furry characters.

By the way, I understand your point though. You should make a game with your vision and show it to the world, on my humble and honest opinion. You may become a good influence to other persons. :wink:
 
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