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RCXGaming

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Are you sure this isn't about me banning you for a week after you started harassing someone in DMs after they told you to stop talking to them after the Red Flags thread was closed and you couldn't let it go?

Oh, it was 100% this. I know this without a doubt.

But you know, unless Benny storms in with an alt account and continues to scream at us about how humanity is evil and narcissistic (yet somehow does not channel this into making his own game? Which is important because this is a GAME DEVELOPMENT FORUM), I think it's safe to say we should drop this.

Dude's already ruined his reputation enough.
 

kirbwarrior

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yet somehow does not channel this into making his own game?
This is a good point. Art has been a fantastic avenue for channeling emotions for centuries if not millennia. Putting these thoughts into a game, using these emotions as inspiration and motivation sounds like a great way to get a game done.
 

kirbwarrior

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I dunno, I'm not sure I want to play a game motivated by the emotions driving this guy
What is it people say, "You just don't understand art"? ;)

More seriously, I'm not even sure that's an issue. I want him to build the game he wants, and he's fairly certain that most people don't want that game, so he can actually avoid a possible pitfall in gamemaking of focusing too much on what the audience wants.
 

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I would love to play a game based on the concepts he's on about, honestly. It almost sounds unique. Like outsider art.
 

Tai_MT

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I tend to divorce the people from the entertainment they produce. I don't care if you're a terrible human being... if you produced something I genuinely had fun with. After all, I'm not buying the person's personality. I'm buying their product. Them being terrible people doesn't make their product any lower in quality.

But, I'm a merchant at heart. I can do that sort of thing. You do terrible things? That's a problem for the law to sort out or your close peers or something. You create an amazing product that gives me joy even though you do terrible things? Well, I want your product.

I don't care about "moral grandstanding" at all, unless we're talking about social and/or political issues. Do I care that the shoes I'm wearing were made in a sweat shop by children? Not really. I just care that they're good shoes. Let the people who get paid to care about that crap... do something about it. It's not my job.

I've said the same thing about Charlie Sheen. "If the dude really needed to be that messed up in order to be hilarious in 2 and a half men... then I support him ruining his life for my entertainment. You don't mess with your product when it's selling just fine. Let the people who get paid to do the moral grandstanding deal with him. I'm just here to watch him be hilarious."
 

Iron_Brew

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I tend to divorce the people from the entertainment they produce. I don't care if you're a terrible human being... if you produced something I genuinely had fun with. After all, I'm not buying the person's personality. I'm buying their product. Them being terrible people doesn't make their product any lower in quality.

But, I'm a merchant at heart. I can do that sort of thing. You do terrible things? That's a problem for the law to sort out or your close peers or something. You create an amazing product that gives me joy even though you do terrible things? Well, I want your product.

I don't care about "moral grandstanding" at all, unless we're talking about social and/or political issues. Do I care that the shoes I'm wearing were made in a sweat shop by children? Not really. I just care that they're good shoes. Let the people who get paid to care about that crap... do something about it. It's not my job.

I've said the same thing about Charlie Sheen. "If the dude really needed to be that messed up in order to be hilarious in 2 and a half men... then I support him ruining his life for my entertainment. You don't mess with your product when it's selling just fine. Let the people who get paid to do the moral grandstanding deal with him. I'm just here to watch him be hilarious."

Two and a half men sucked though.

I get that Death of the Author is a thing, but I just wanted to say: Two and a half men sucked :LZSlol:

Also, to be fair, most people do want the goods they consume to be manufactured ethically.
 

Tai_MT

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Two and a half men sucked though.
Correct. The only thing about it that was worth watching was Charlie Sheen. Everything about that show, other than him, sucked. There's a reason that show went downhill VERY FAST once they booted him off.

I get that Death of the Author is a thing, but I just wanted to say: Two and a half men sucked :LZSlol:
Yep. Charlie Sheen was the only thing worth watching about it.

Also, to be fair, most people do want the goods they consume to be manufactured ethically.
If this were true, most people wouldn't buy 90% of the things they do buy. Most people just don't want to know that their goods are manufactured "unethically". Because it means "they support something unethical" and people might call them out for it.

Heck, you need only look at the fact that PETA is still around to know what people think about "unethical behavior" of corporations/businesses. And people care about animals more than they care about other people. But, nobody is trying to get their charity status revoked. Or, trying to save animals from them.

People lack the capacity to be emotionally invested in things that don't directly affect their own lives.

Or, at least, most lack that capacity.
 

kirbwarrior

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Most people just don't want to know
Ugh, if that isn't a daily problem when dealing with people.

I tend to divorce the people from the entertainment they produce.
I actually find it bizarre when people don't do this. An actor isn't the character they are playing (unless they explicitly are themself), but some people can't seem to separate them.

Also, to be fair, most people do want the goods they consume to be manufactured ethically.
I think the more accurate statement is "most people want to FEEL like they the goods they consume are manufactured ethically". This is important because it shows the motivation behind their actions. If someone wants to KNOW this, they'll look into it, they'll change their actions, they'll be proactive. But if someone wants to FEEL this, then looking into it can make them realize they are wrong and thus they have motivation to not learn so the feeling doesn't go away and so they don't have to change what they are doing.

I don't care about "moral grandstanding" at all, unless we're talking about social and/or political issues. Do I care that the shoes I'm wearing were made in a sweat shop by children? Not really.
This seems contradictory. Are children working in sweatshops NOT a social issue? Is it not a failing of society that I am supporting by buying these shoes?
 

Tai_MT

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This seems contradictory. Are children working in sweatshops NOT a social issue? Is it not a failing of society that I am supporting by buying these shoes?

It's a separation of the issues. I'm going to continue to buy these shoes because they're decent quality and cheap. Doesn't matter to me if they're made in a child sweatshop or not. I'm not going to "moral grandstand" and say "I'm going to boycott this product due to how unethical it is!". It's not my job to put them out of business. That's a job for governments.

But, if you're going to ask me to discuss the subject of child sweatshops and the role they play in the economy as a political or social issue, then I'll do so. But, I'll be doing it not as a "moral issue" and more a practical one. Namely, it isn't "outrage" that would solve these problems, but instead "modernization" in those places that do this. There are a lot of factors and issues in the way of those "modernization" practices as well... so the labor of those children is a necessary evil. It's a very complicated situation that warrants navigation by people who know their politics and history... and not by people who just want to feel good about themselves for "getting rid of something they thought was wrong".

Most "wrongs" in society aren't traditionally ended because of "moral grandstanding" or anything of the like... they're resolved as a matter of practicality. Namely, "is there a good reason to remove this normalized thing in society? What are the advantages to the nation for removing it?".

But, again, I'm a merchant at heart. I know for a fact that "The world is pain. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is trying to sell you something". The same is true of politics and social issues. Anyone pushing "feel good" stuff is mostly just trying to sell you something. One of the reasons I despise platitudes of any kind.

"But isn't X wrong?!". Only according to our own morals. If we want to change it, we need to get involved in changing the morals of other peoples and nations and cultures. Which means directly interfering and imposing our values on others. Things have reasons for being the way they are. You must solve the underlying issues, rather than treat the symptoms. To that end, I'm not willing to entertain people who "feel" their way through politics, because they already demonstrate a complete lack of awareness of the world, other people, and themselves, when they're doing things "to feel good". Put simply, they aren't qualified to have opinions on the subjects they want to "feel good" about, because they're ignorant of those subjects in their entirety.

All those people who want to "feel good" are doing is trying to sell you something. They're trying to sell you their beliefs for the low low price of validating their existence and making them feel smart and useful and morally superior.

Which... sounds awfully "cultish" to me.

People who do things for money, I understand. People who do things as part of a weird cult... I don't get.
 

LASCIVIAWARE

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You don't have to change who you are, but if you wouldn't say something offline to a stranger, you probably shouldn't post it.
 

Iron_Brew

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It's a separation of the issues. I'm going to continue to buy these shoes because they're decent quality and cheap. Doesn't matter to me if they're made in a child sweatshop or not. I'm not going to "moral grandstand" and say "I'm going to boycott this product due to how unethical it is!". It's not my job to put them out of business. That's a job for governments.

But, if you're going to ask me to discuss the subject of child sweatshops and the role they play in the economy as a political or social issue, then I'll do so. But, I'll be doing it not as a "moral issue" and more a practical one. Namely, it isn't "outrage" that would solve these problems, but instead "modernization" in those places that do this. There are a lot of factors and issues in the way of those "modernization" practices as well... so the labor of those children is a necessary evil. It's a very complicated situation that warrants navigation by people who know their politics and history... and not by people who just want to feel good about themselves for "getting rid of something they thought was wrong".

Most "wrongs" in society aren't traditionally ended because of "moral grandstanding" or anything of the like... they're resolved as a matter of practicality. Namely, "is there a good reason to remove this normalized thing in society? What are the advantages to the nation for removing it?".

But, again, I'm a merchant at heart. I know for a fact that "The world is pain. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is trying to sell you something". The same is true of politics and social issues. Anyone pushing "feel good" stuff is mostly just trying to sell you something. One of the reasons I despise platitudes of any kind.

"But isn't X wrong?!". Only according to our own morals. If we want to change it, we need to get involved in changing the morals of other peoples and nations and cultures. Which means directly interfering and imposing our values on others. Things have reasons for being the way they are. You must solve the underlying issues, rather than treat the symptoms. To that end, I'm not willing to entertain people who "feel" their way through politics, because they already demonstrate a complete lack of awareness of the world, other people, and themselves, when they're doing things "to feel good". Put simply, they aren't qualified to have opinions on the subjects they want to "feel good" about, because they're ignorant of those subjects in their entirety.

All those people who want to "feel good" are doing is trying to sell you something. They're trying to sell you their beliefs for the low low price of validating their existence and making them feel smart and useful and morally superior.

Which... sounds awfully "cultish" to me.

People who do things for money, I understand. People who do things as part of a weird cult... I don't get.

I'm not big on moral relativism, to be fair. I don't think it's cultish to want to do things which are broadly moral and be critical of the world even though there's no ethical consumption under capitalism etc
 

Tai_MT

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I'm not big on moral relativism, to be fair. I don't think it's cultish to want to do things which are broadly moral and be critical of the world even though there's no ethical consumption under capitalism etc

Probably because you've never done a deep dive into what morals are and their purpose. Morals are relative. Just like value. There are no absolutes. Morals exist as a set of rules to create a stable society that will let it survive and/or flourish.

Morals go out the window when circumstances don't allow for them. After all, it's difficult to care about others when your every waking moment is spent trying to figure out how YOU are going to survive the day.

Morals change over time and are usually a result of society becoming more prosperous.

It is cultish, in my opinion, to want to tell the world and everyone else in it, what to do and how to do it. That's for those countries and peoples to decide. If we want to change them, then we need to spend our own time and capital to make them prosperous and able to flourish on their own without our help. But, that's why politics and culture are complicated. It's why I say that anyone who approaches such things from the viewpoint of "wanting to feel good" is blatantly admitting they have no grasp of the world at large and thus has no basis for a valuable opinion on the subjects.

The world is complicated. I look down on anyone who doesn't know the world is complicated. I look down on anyone who insists on "treating symptoms" rather than "treating the disease". I look down on people who basically engage in nothing more than "slacktivism". That is, they only care enough to express displeasure about something, but wouldn't change their lives to fit those beliefs, nor would they actively get involved and put work forth to solve the problems they complain about. It's easier to complain after all.

To me, that's cultish behavior. I'm not on board for anything remotely close to that way of thinking. Especially with how similar such people end up thinking like people who were in Jonestown and other similar places.

I prefer thinking for myself and just admitting that I don't care, rather than pretending I do as a means of "moral grandstanding".
 

Iron_Brew

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Probably because you've never done a deep dive into what morals are and their purpose. Morals are relative. Just like value. There are no absolutes. Morals exist as a set of rules to create a stable society that will let it survive and/or flourish.

Morals go out the window when circumstances don't allow for them. After all, it's difficult to care about others when your every waking moment is spent trying to figure out how YOU are going to survive the day.

Morals change over time and are usually a result of society becoming more prosperous.

It is cultish, in my opinion, to want to tell the world and everyone else in it, what to do and how to do it. That's for those countries and peoples to decide. If we want to change them, then we need to spend our own time and capital to make them prosperous and able to flourish on their own without our help. But, that's why politics and culture are complicated. It's why I say that anyone who approaches such things from the viewpoint of "wanting to feel good" is blatantly admitting they have no grasp of the world at large and thus has no basis for a valuable opinion on the subjects.

The world is complicated. I look down on anyone who doesn't know the world is complicated. I look down on anyone who insists on "treating symptoms" rather than "treating the disease". I look down on people who basically engage in nothing more than "slacktivism". That is, they only care enough to express displeasure about something, but wouldn't change their lives to fit those beliefs, nor would they actively get involved and put work forth to solve the problems they complain about. It's easier to complain after all.

To me, that's cultish behavior. I'm not on board for anything remotely close to that way of thinking. Especially with how similar such people end up thinking like people who were in Jonestown and other similar places.

I prefer thinking for myself and just admitting that I don't care, rather than pretending I do as a means of "moral grandstanding".

You're right, anyone who disagrees must have not thought about it enough.

That's the only possible explanation and you should "look down on other people" for not agreeing with you verbatim.

Not wanting kids to have to work in sweatshops making sneakers to be sold in the West is totally the same as Jonestown. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a morally grandstanding anti-intellectual.

Jeez, man, sometimes your posts are too much :LZSlol:
 

Tai_MT

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You're right, anyone who disagrees must have not thought about it enough.
Never said that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth again (is there a reason you're so into this sort of behavior?).

Morals are relative. That's an immutable fact. If you don't believe so, you're welcome to try to prove it wrong. But... I mean... I've got cultures and history on my side. So, you've got quite the uphill battle.

That's the only possible explanation and you should "look down on other people" for not agreeing with you verbatim.
Also never said that... but you REALLY like putting words in people's mouths and attempting to make them defend points they didn't make.

I don't know what to do with this behavior of yours except call it what it is... unless you've got a better explanation for why you do this to people (not just to me either, I see you do it all over the forums).

Not wanting kids to have to work in sweatshops making sneakers to be sold in the West is totally the same as Jonestown. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a morally grandstanding anti-intellectual.

Also never said that... Man, you're just really on constructing all these strawmen to topple and then trying to make me think they were really my thoughts and what I said, when they weren't.

Jeez, man, sometimes your posts are too much :LZSlol:

My posts are from places of logic and reality. I reject anything that delves into delusions. It's why I invite people to actually debate from places of logic and reality and why they quickly deviate down into name-calling and getting upset when it turns out they didn't really have a leg to stand on.
 

Iron_Brew

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Never said that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth again (is there a reason you're so into this sort of behavior?).

Your post started with the words "Probably because you've never done a deep dive into what morals are and their purpose." You might have never said that but are you really arguing that you didn't say that my disagreement wasn't based on having not thought about it enough?

You literally did that. Why are you denying it, it's there in black and white.

Morals are relative. That's an immutable fact. If you don't believe so, you're welcome to try to prove it wrong. But... I mean... I've got cultures and history on my side. So, you've got quite the uphill battle.


Also never said that... but you REALLY like putting words in people's mouths and attempting to make them defend points they didn't make.

No, I don't. I was making a point. I wasn't inviting debate or asking you to defend any points, I was trying to explain to you with the examples given how your post came across.

I don't know what to do with this behavior of yours except call it what it is... unless you've got a better explanation for why you do this to people (not just to me either, I see you do it all over the forums).

Just trying to make a point. I don't think anyone expected this thread to turn into a mental disagreement about moral relativism. I'm not trying to construct strawmen because - again - I wasn't expecting you to even reply.

Also never said that... Man, you're just really on constructing all these strawmen to topple and then trying to make me think they were really my thoughts and what I said, when they weren't.

AGAIN - not a strawman. You're the one who started making comparisons to Jonestown. It's why I brought it up. Can you please reflect for a moment on why I posted this before slagging me off? I was trying to make a point because bringing up the Jonestown massacre when talking about people not wanting products made with slave labour is mental.

My posts are from places of logic and reality. I reject anything that delves into delusions. It's why I invite people to actually debate from places of logic and reality and why they quickly deviate down into name-calling and getting upset when it turns out they didn't really have a leg to stand on.

Nobody is trying to debate you, nobody is upset. You patronised me a bit, but at this point I feel like that's sort of par for the course and I don't see it as a bad thing, really.

I'm sorry, I was just trying to be light hearted but you seem to have taken the post as some kind of personal affront. I thought the tone of my post was pretty clear, but clearly I've made an error.

I apologise if I've insulted or hurt you in some way, that was the opposite of my intent.
 

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I deal with narcism every day from multiple sources (even mild cases from myself), and this sounds exactly like it. You are ranting about your own opinions and saying things about other peoples statements without displaying any evidence except "i don't like ur narcism and bs goodbye chumps". Good bye I guess, and hope you find a place you like better than here. I'll be here. As usual.
 
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