If you have nothing nice to say... say nothing at all?

[Ratty524]

The only reason why I never reply to certain games is because I haven't played that said game, or I truly can't think of anything to say about the project. Otherwise, I could care the hell less about the project's background or how well the creator takes criticism. I tell things like it is, and if your project sucks, then I'll tell you it sucks. No sugar-coating in between.

I have been receiving a lot of backlash, though, especially in giving feedback for this contest. Part of it is how these devs seem to love pointing out the bad reputation I have for creating joke projects (welp), others just dismiss my critique as pure "whining" even though I always tell people exactly WHY something was bad. I do question my methods sometimes, but I also feel like too many people have thin skins.

That's probably another reason why some people avoid commenting on a mediocre project. They're afraid that their feedback will be met with backlash. Considering we are working with a HEAVILY subjective medium, this shouldn't be the case.

When you trash someone and destroy someone and you feel GOOD or PRIDEFUL about it, you seriously need a lot of help. Someone, somewhere out there put their HEARTS AND SOULS into...whatever it is.

Who cares? You can put in as much heart and soul into something as you want, but it still won't mean that the game is good. Also, being blunt with critique isn't about making yourself feel "prideful" and good about yourself for being the big meany bully, it's about being perfectly honest and making the developer realize the mistakes they've made. When you suggest something needs a "lot of work" you actually leave the level of work that dev needs to do completely up in the air, and not all things can be "touched up" within a game. Sometimes you just need to scrap broken **** entirely. It's harsh, but the truth hurts.

 

[DavidGil]

One other thing I've noticed with people is they tend to have a superiority complex where they assume their opinion is right and everyone else thinks the same. This leads to it sounding like they're saying your game's poor, like it's a fact, and it makes it hard to take that sort of critique seriously if you could call it that.

A lot of it really is about how things are worded. Of course, I'm basically saying the same thing as others, but I don't think the superiority complex has been touched upon.

And by the way, Iron Croc, this is something I feel strongly about too. I just have too much respect for the works of others, so all of the rudeness etc. that I see directed at works of art (no matter the medium) is quite foreign to me, as I'd never dream of saying the sort of things that others do. I can't really explain why people say the things they do, except say that it can be amusing at times when people say, for example, that a project has had no effort put into it and that they could make something the same in five minutes.

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

Who cares? You can put in as much heart and soul into something as you want, but it still won't mean that the game is good. Also, being blunt with critique isn't about making yourself feel "prideful" and good about yourself for being the big meany bully, it's about being perfectly honest and making the developer realize the mistakes they've made. When you suggest something needs a "lot of work" you actually leave the level of work that dev needs to do completely up in the air, and not all things can be "touched up" within a game. Sometimes you just need to scrap broken **** entirely. It's harsh, but the truth hurts.

No.  Just no. 

If something sucks, you can find ways of telling them WITHOUT being rude. the truth =/= lack of diplomacy.

I am SO sick and tired of hearing "That's the truth" or  "Sometimes you just have to"....  Just no.  Being immature about it =/= the truth.

 

[Lunarea]

It's harsh, but the truth hurts.

No, actually it doesn't. Helping someone get to a point where they understand that maybe it's better to let go of a concept (or an entire project) doesn't have to involve even an ounce of harshness.

When you suggest something needs a "lot of work" you actually leave the level of work that dev needs to do completely up in the air, and not all things can be "touched up" within a game.

Why is this a bad thing? Learning what works and what doesn't, as well as how much work you should be putting into a feature (and whether the feature is even worth it) is really important. It works out so much better when this knowledge comes from experience, than when it comes from someone else.

 

[Ratty524]

No.  Just no. 

If something sucks, you can find ways of telling them WITHOUT being rude. the truth =/= lack of diplomacy.

I am SO sick and tired of hearing "That's the truth" or  "Sometimes you just have to"....  Just no.  Being immature about it =/= the truth.

Except saying someone's game is garbage (provided it has an explanation) isn't rude. Only when you launch a personal jab does it become so, and directing that kind of negative energy towards the GAME THEY MADE and not the PERSON THEMSELVES is not a bad thing, but some people apparently think it is. These same people treat their games too much like it's their damn baby or something, taking whatever is directed at the product as if it's some personal attack, when it isn't. THAT is just a big no, it's just flat out dismissing judgement for the sake of protecting your ego. In general, the wording of your critique shouldn't even matter so much as the actual context, or meaning behind it. Also, nobody outside of the RM bubble will probably be as "kind" or even detailed with how they think of your game, so anyone here might as well get a thick skin while they're here.

Why is this a bad thing? Learning what works and what doesn't, as well as how much work you should be putting into a feature (and whether the feature is even worth it) is really important. It works out so much better when this knowledge comes from experience, than when it comes from someone else.

It's bad because it's just sugar-coating, really. You are right in that learning what works and what doesn't is an important part of game design, but how can you honestly learn that aspect by stating a project just needs "a lot of work" as oppose to being just outright frank in telling them that the dev needs to overall his entire project? That's where I'm getting at.

 

[Galenmereth]

This is a difficult subject, but there definitely are dangers with sugarcoating. Delusional thinking grow from this depending on the person: when they eventually do get honest critique, the fall will be that much harder. That's not to say that you should use mean words, but to be truthful in critiquing someone's work is important if they put it out there in front of people.

 

[DavidGil]

Who cares? You can put in as much heart and soul into something as you want, but it still won't mean that the game is good. Also, being blunt with critique isn't about making yourself feel "prideful" and good about yourself for being the big meany bully, it's about being perfectly honest and making the developer realize the mistakes they've made. When you suggest something needs a "lot of work" you actually leave the level of work that dev needs to do completely up in the air, and not all things can be "touched up" within a game. Sometimes you just need to scrap broken **** entirely. It's harsh, but the truth hurts.

Ratty,

I don't mean to single you out here, nor do I have any interest in a debate. But this is pretty much something that is wrong with people. (Keep in mind this is more said in general, too, so not really directed at you)

I believe bluntness and honesty are great though, for the record. It's just how people word things and I'd always try to find positives. For instance, let's say you just tried a project where you felt the developer was totally untalented and that their project was a total mess that no-one could enjoy. You have two options:

1) Tell them it's rubbish.

2) Tell them that it needs work, but stress that they should keep on making games if they enjoy it and also stress the fact that everyone has to start from somewhere. Also that you only learn by doing, by and large.

I'd settle for number 2, personally, as there is absolutely no need to make someone feel like crap and make them not want to continue, especially if it's just a hobby for them. However, if they're developing games commercially, it's a bit different. But some people would likely settle for number 1. (I hesitate to say 'most' here, but it sometimes feels that way when you browse the web) To be frank, the only time I've ever come out and told someone that their work was rubbish, was when I was sure that someone was a troll and wasting the time of others.

Anyway, speaking for myself and I've never shown my work to anyone here or in the RPG Maker community at large, I know that I was quite put off by the community here when I first joined. I won't say what the incident was in case it drags up old memories, but it's a problem with society and the internet in general. It's not just relegated to the RPG Maker community, as there's a lack of respect everywhere for the work of others and there's also a great sense of entitlement that people can feel though that's a different topic really. It's just that I'd have expected the community here to be a bit less harsh and more respectful, compared to others, as people know what goes into making a decent game. Even one that only lasts for five minutes (an extreme example, but you get the point).

PS: And again, I hesitate to say that the majority of people here are disrespectful. I honestly haven't been a member long enough to make any judgements, but I know that at least a few can be. So, please don't take it as me saying the community here is bad.

 

[Harmill]

When I give feedback on games, I TRY to be helpful and detailed. If I'm writing feedback for a game I didn't enjoy very much, I'm a little scared about how the developer will receive it, and how I constructed my feedback. I don't want the feedback to sound like I'm complaining/whining, but if there's a particular aspect of the game that just outright frustrated me, I feel the need to make sure I don't sugarcoat it so that the developer understands that the area needs some serious tweaking. It's a tricky balance for me, and I know I can improve on my methods. For example, does using caps sound offensive? Ex: "I felt like I missed EVERY OTHER ATTACK!". It's meant to convey frustration, but it could be interpreted as a personal attack. I've left feedback for games where I'll feel guilty for a couple hours afterwards, unsure if I went overboard or not.

As to the discussion at large, I really agree with the idea that you need to judge the creator of the project to see HOW critical of a feedback they can take before feeling hurt. If this is a fairly new member of the community, or it's their first project, there's no need to be super harsh. Carefully choose your words and be polite, but make sure they take away from the feedback ways to improve their game. One of the ways to approach negative feedback is to make sure that it's a problem with the GAME and not the CREATOR.

On the other hand, if you're critiquing a game from someone who has a lot of experience with RPG Maker, has at least one project thread aside from the one you just played, etc, then I feel like you can reduce your filter a bit.

 

[Lunarea]

Except saying someone's game is garbage (provided it has an explanation) isn't rude.

Yes, it is.

It's like when someone says "no offense, but...". What follows is offensive, and saying "no offense" doesn't magically erase the fact that what's said is offensive.

It doesn't matter how justified you feel in saying something is garbage, and how many opinion points you've got to back up your view. Telling someone their game is garbage is rude. And not only is it rude, but it puts the focus on the wrong thing. Instead of focusing on the issues with the project, the person focuses on your arbitrary uncensored feeling and gets defensive. Or gets upset - and they're not wrong for doing so.

It's bad because it's just sugar-coating, really. You are right in that learning what works and what doesn't is an important part of game design, but how can you honestly learn that aspect by stating a project just needs "a lot of work" as oppose to being just outright frank in telling them that the dev needs to overall his entire project? That's where I'm getting at.

You know, there is a happy medium between sugar-coating to the point of lying through your teeth and being completely blunt and uncensored, right? It is entirely possible to gently nudge someone in the direction of letting go of a concept or idea. By focusing on something positive about the project, you could inspire and motivate the developer to focus on those parts of their project. You can even suggest a complete overhaul without having to resort to flash judgments of how the game is "garbage" or how they should try harder.

If you take your time (and let's face it, with forums and websites, you have that option), you can find a way to express yourself without making the reader feel like they're being personally attacked.

Also:

Also, nobody outside of the RM bubble will probably be as "kind" or even detailed with how they think of your game, so anyone here might as well get a thick skin while they're here.

This is one of the mentalities I really dislike, because it has horrible logic. It's like those times you're upset and people tell you to just get over it because someone else has it worse.

Just because there are rude people elsewhere doesn't suddenly make it ok to be rude too. There's people out there who commit crimes all the time, but if you commit a crime and get caught, it won't protect you from facing the consequences.

In fact, rude people elsewhere is a good reason for our community to avoid rudeness. Our community can then become a safe place for people to join and be a place of support and encouragement.

 

[Indrah]

I'm not going to say I am not an ass (because I am and I'm not particularly bothered) but I will say that there is a point I definitely want to make when it comes to real time media like streaming.

Real time impressions (at least for me) do not involve editing, so getting angry or offended because I curse or don't like something is a bit pointless. I DO warn people that I curse. I DO edit my written impressions (and try to see GOOD things in the projects, which is NOT ALWAYS EASY) and try to wrap up my thoughts in more positive lines at the end of each vieo, but being all defensive because I said "oh fuc* dat" during a game is not really something I can (or want) to control.

Or maybe I'm just being defensive. I dunno, I just don't really want to censor myself on real time when doing streams. It's 75% of the reason that people bother watching. If you can't tell that my general cursing isn't a personal attack then I don't think you want to watch or read anythign I do :x

Another complaint that comes along often to streaming in general is "you were not paying enough attention!" Aside from how true that statement is (some games are just plain boring/badly designed), you try keeping a more or less constant vocal commentary and paying attention at the same time, see how that goes.

tl;dr when streaming the player/comenter is always going to have a lower attention span, jsut be aware of that.

 

[DavidGil]

Hey, Indrah. Off-topic, but I don't care.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I watched your video of Ashworth earlier today. I found it more amusing than anything else and was saying 'the mansion is in that direction' as I'd worked it out rather quickly while trying that game (I had, however, stumbled across a map in the game). Though it was also you cursing at the jump scares that I found amusing (think only Amnesia has ever really made me jump a bit). I think I got up to the same point you did. Didn't stop because it was bad, but I just have a tendancy of doing that with games. Intend to pick it up again.

But then again, I'm a Brit, so I don't really find cursing to be too offensive. It's something I grew up with.

 

[Volrath]

Except saying someone's game is garbage (provided it has an explanation) isn't rude. Only when you launch a personal jab does it become so,

Comparing someone's game to the dirty waste that you collect in plastic bags and throw in a bin outside your house is rude. 

But it goes back to what I was saying before, you have to ask yourself whether you actually want to help the designer. If all you want to do is vent about how much the game annoyed you or whatever, that's one thing. But if you really want the game to improve, you gotta take into account the impact your comments have. People will disregard your criticism if you provoke them too much, that's just a fact. Everyone's got their own threshold of what's useful feedback and what's just obnoxious, but if you cross that line, the chance that the person will listen to you goes down.

Think of it this way. If you play a game and you come across something (a battle, a puzzle, whatever) that really rubs you the wrong way, you'll stop. The rest of the game could improve a lot, but you won't know because the beginning was too off-putting. And that's legit. 

If you read a post about your game and the first paragraph is rude and obnoxious, you might not even bother to finish. The rest of the review might be really useful, but you won't know because the beginning pissed you off too much. 

Very few people would blame someone for stopping the game in the first example. Why should we expect people to wade through a post full of obnoxious crap just because there might be a little nugget that's useful? Life's short.

 

[_Shadow_]

So first things first.

If you are about to write a comment to flame somebody, don't.

Keep it for yourself.

There were lame games.

I don't remember any names, I played 755 games after all.

If you wanna troll, good luck but no food from me.

If you want to make a negative review...

do it, to state what they have to fix in order to make their game better or perfect.

So when you wanna help by stating some stuff, you can express your ideas. 

That's the spirit.

I actually had a negative comment in my game and I really appreciated that.

The guy had some good points.

Some things were known, some others not.

I learned what to do ont the next version.

Wow! I thank this guy. Of course some points were wrong.

I explained why, we had a further conversation, but I thumbs uped his negative comment.

Yes you heard me right!

It got a rate up.

People don't react the same way as I do to criticism though.

Cheers.

Say something positive or nothing is a safe path that I dislike.

Nobody gets better with patting and petting.

This is my personal opinion of course, I might be wrong, but seriously, that's what I believe.

P.S. Wanna write a negative comment?

Play for at least 60  minutes the game before posting anything.

You can be sure you got a point, if 60 minutes pass and the game is still lame.

 

[Zorax87]

I believe that bluntness is the best medicine. There's no point sugar-coating what needs to be done because then the message becomes distorted.

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

I Agree but please remember: Bluntness =/= rudeness.

 

[nhubi]

I Agree but please remember: Bluntness =/= rudeness.

True but that needs to be clear on both sides of the table. The review should be honest and without malice, blunt if you will, but the developer should read it as that, not assume that because a review doesn't say nice things about their game that it is rude or malicious.

There is no universal perfect anything, everything is subject to interpretation and evaluation. There are some works of art, and for this example I am specifically referencing the visual arts, and painting in particular, that I have been known to stand in front of and stare at for an inordinate length of time, because it speaks to me, it pulls me in and entrances me. To me, this particular piece perfectly encapsulates the period in which it was painted, the style to which it is attributed, the mood of the milieu. Yet someone else can come and stand next to me and say "I don't like this." Or "I don't know what this is." Or 'This is terrible." I don't agree, in fact I don't agree vehemently, but art is subjective and they have the right to their opinion and what's more they have the right to voice that opinion no matter how much I disagree with them, and I'm not even the artist.

In regard to a review just saying 'this is terrible' is not sufficient, the reasons why you as the reviewer think it is terrible must be explained, but even then, if you think a game is terrible, you should say so, to do anything else is disingenuous and ultimately more damaging to the maker, because somewhere down the line someone else is going to lambaste them for the things you knew were wrong but chose not to say for fear of hurting their feelings. This is a mistake.

In an earlier post you made points about an HONEST REVIEW (your capitalisation) having unforeseen consequences in the personal life of the game maker. I'm sorry but really? A reviewer's job is to review the product in front of them, not to investigate the maker of the product to ascertain if they have a happy home life, if they just failed a job interview, if their dog/cat/hamster died, or, and I'm using your example here, they are self-harming. To lay the choices a developer makes after reading a review on the reviewer is ridiculous. It is tantamount to saying because I served you a beer at a bar and you went and bought a dozen more and drank them then got behind the wheel of your car and killed someone, that's my fault for not realising you were a recovering alcoholic and that first beer tipped you over the edge. It's not, it's yours for making a bad decision. Yes that is an extreme example, but so is self-harming.

Above everything else a review should be honest, should outline the bad and the good (if any, and there usually is something) and should not sugar coat, or indeed wrap the developer in cotton wool. That's not a review, it's a security blanket.

 

[Kryzon]

With a small amount of effort in your prose you can still get your point across without hurting the reader.

 

[Mesonyx]

Coming very late to this thread, but here's my two cents: There is a subtle but substantial difference between a harsh review and a cruel one.

If you're bringing something constructive to the table, a harsh review can still be helpful. But a mean review for the sake of being mean is just cruel.

For example, people who've reviewed my game have commented on its slow start (and a few stopped playing entirely). Rather than take offense to that, I realized the intro WAS plodding, and that I need some interactive way to draw the player in.

Compare that to the positive reviews which - while extremely flattering - provided less in the way of workable feedback.

I guess what I'm getting at is if you're going to say something is bad, make sure you include suggestions on what could be better.

I know we all poured our souls into our projects and that criticism can be existentially shattering, but it's also the first requirement for improving as game designers.

 

[whitesphere]

I believe that bluntness is the best medicine. There's no point sugar-coating what needs to be done because then the message becomes distorted.

I flat out disagree.  In my experience dealing with people in all types of social situations, bluntness often has precisely the opposite effect.  All it does is start an argument, and any good, solid, valid points you've made get lost in the fight.   So I've found bluntness is completely counter-productive if I want my comments heard.  I had that happen to me many times when I was younger.   So, if I were to leave blunt criticism, at best it would be ignored, at worst it would piss someone off, and would still be ignored.  

However, I agree 100% it's not good to sugar-coat the truth, but the truth doesn't need to be a metal bat.  If a game is very, very crappy, I might explain why I think it's crappy, what needs to improve, or at most might say "I believe the idea behind this game has potential, but really needs work to improve the quality of the maps/events/bug fixes/etc."  

But, stating, truthfully good points about the game is not sugarcoating, as long as the bad points are discussed as well.  But my goal is to discuss them in a way so that they get across and are heard and hopefully acted on.  I might say "The game's concept has potential, but needs much more polishing and playtesting before it's an enjoyable experience.  Right now, the battles are extremely imbalanced/the maps X and Y look odd because of Z, the party member A is overpowered, etc."

Now, if it's obvious to me the game wasn't at all tested (which I find completely unacceptable), I'd say, truthfully but not bluntly "This game needs much more extensive playtesting to fix bugs.   The bugs I found were A, B, C (etc).  I stopped playing because of the number and severity of the bugs and believe the game needs a lot of bug fixing before it's ready for release."

So, I believe the best criticism is tactful, but honest (these are NOT opposed in my mind), and lists precisely what and where a game needs to improve.  If the developer is sincere, but inexperienced, constructive criticism (which is NOT bluntness) can be very helpful.    

In my contest game, I had a friendly playtester who gave me a detailed, helpful but constructively phrased set of "Here's what you need to fix" whether it was bugs, gameplay concepts or whatnot.  These were invaluable in improving my game.  So I believe constructive criticism is a great asset.  

So, I consider honesty and constructive criticism to be key for any critique, but bluntness is not constructive.

 

[Holts]

Negative feedback is a necessary thing and should be delivered with respect.  I've read plenty of hateful reviews and it's almost unanimously clear that the authors of these reviews aren't trying to help improve the work.  They crave respect and they're trying to establish themselves as a person of authority by abusing a complete stranger.  There's a word for people like this.  It rhymes with "sloosh-wag."

I appreciate negative feedback.  I don't mind if there's more negative feedback than positive feedback.  If there's more negative qualities than positive qualities, of course more negative feedback should be presented.

Sugar-coating can be harmful to a person who is trying to develop in any endeavor.  If you pat someone on the back and tell them they're doing something right when they're clearly not, you're just building them up for a lot of frustration when they finally do meet valid negative criticism.  Furthermore, sugar-coating can be condescending because it often assumes that the recipient can not emotionally cope with their own shortcomings or is incapable of developing beyond them.

If someone can't accept polite yet negative criticism, it's their loss. Unfortunately the artistic landscape is littered with frail egos who fence mistakes as "originality," and often never work out of their bad habits because they completely shut down negative criticism.  It is difficult for people like this to become successful in any meaningful sense because their ego causes them to plateau.  The most brilliant people that I know are aware of their talent, but still heed criticism and never assume that they're the best.  There's good pride, and there's bad pride!