If you have nothing nice to say... say nothing at all?

[Tiarali]

I don't think there's a single good thing to be said for saying that somebody's work is rubbish.  In itself it provides exactly zero feedback.  You can give feedback without saying "it was rubbish", and still give a truthful expression of the things that didn't work.

There were a lot of people entering this game, and unless there were troll entries (and I've seen one that did look like it might be) then everybody has learned something out of their game.  I suspect that almost everybody tried something new or learned something new out of their game.  The game as a whole may not be of a commercial level, but saying that it was rubbish negates the fact that this game may be better than their previous game, and the next game may be better, and so on.

Also, the people entering this competition had different team sizes, different resources, different game engines, and different ability levels.  Some, like me, just got RPG Maker in the humble bundle and uploaded their first ever game to the competition.  My game probably is rubbish, but it's a starting point.  I don't need anybody to tell me it's rubbish, I already understand that's possibly true.  But there are many things I'm learning that I would value constructive criticism on.  For example, one of the issues I was concerned about was game balance.  Another was trying to find the balance between making sure that people knew what to do to progress the game while trying not to baby them too much.  Both things are hard to test yourself because you know the game so intimately it's hard to look at it objectively.  So, some of the game creators may well know there are likely to be issues with their games, and are looking to improve.  They don't necessarily want to be told, "Oh, this is wonderful!" but at the same time, it would be nice to have the constructive criticism without being made to feel stupid for trying.

I can understand that game developers who are trying to go commercial are going to have to develop thick skins - and possibly deserve poor reviews if their effort isn't of a high quality - but it's a different thing entirely for a mob of various ability levels who were all severely restricted as far as time goes who aren't trying to insist that people should pay for their games, but who just had a go.

 

[Cinnamon]

The attitude developers should have:

But I see a lot of developers doing this when faced with criticism:

:')

 

[kartersaint]

It's sad that I couldn't face criticism on my own project yet lol. 

My game is not charming enough to people I guess. Then I should focus on next project. You know, if my next project has been succeeded, then people may try my previous project for curiosity.  

Anyway, I don't know why, but being a play-tester for some games is funnier than making my own. There are so many good games that have less votes and views than some...things. I should dig more. They are hungry for reviews...

 

[Housekeeping]

@Cinnamon: Yes.  A critic certainly shouldn't just slam a game with zero explanation, but developers need to toughen up. 

If you guys think this atmosphere is hostile, you should try submitting stories to literary journals.  Instead of getting personalized feedback, you just get a stamped-out slip with a faux polite statement--and, if you're really lucky, you might get one sentence from an editor saying they like your writing style enough for you to send more.  I'll take hostile over cold indifference any day, as hostile at least shows the feelings that your game has evoked, and that's information that you can learn from.  Feedback's a gift, people.

 

[Razzazaki]

It's sad that I couldn't face criticism on my own project yet lol. 

My game is not charming enough to people I guess. Then I should focus on next project. You know, if my next project has been succeeded, then people may try my previous project for curiosity.  

Anyway, I don't know why, but being a play-tester for some games is funnier than making my own. There are so many good games that have less votes and views than some...things. I should dig more. They are hungry for reviews...

you just caught my curiosity with that comment i have to check it out!

 

[whitesphere]

It's sad that I couldn't face criticism on my own project yet lol. 

My game is not charming enough to people I guess. Then I should focus on next project. You know, if my next project has been succeeded, then people may try my previous project for curiosity.  

Anyway, I don't know why, but being a play-tester for some games is funnier than making my own. There are so many good games that have less votes and views than some...things. I should dig more. They are hungry for reviews...

Even if you're not great at developing games (not everyone is), I think all of us who write games would really appreciate good, complete play testing that says what's wrong, right and what we need to fix.  Just give the reviews in a constructive manner and I think any of us who make games would like it.

After all, there's a good solid reason why you have ANY program tested by people who aren't the programmer --- because you'd try different things and have different assumptions than the developer.  That's how the lion's share of bugs are found.

 

[PixelLuchi]

 Feedback's a gift, people.

You should put that in your signature. It is so true it's not even funny.

 

[Vexed]

My two cents~

I feel like people are getting two very different things mixed up. One is review. The other is feedback. They're not the same thing.

I'm around professional videogame journalists a lot and I've been lucky enough to write a few professional videogame reviews for web and print myself. I've spoken about this topic with a few different people and the thing that seems to be key in writing a review is that you're NOT addressing the developer of the game. You write reviews for an audience, potential players or purchasers of a product. Reviews are personal. They're an account and opinion of one person's experience with a game. They can be harsh as you like, they can be funny, they can be cruel - because they're not aimed at the developer. They're not attacks on a person, but a personal opinion of a game. Things like LPs generally tend to fall into this category for me too.

Feedback however, is not and IMO should not be personal - because it just risks becoming an attack rather than advice. If you don't like horror games at all then giving feedback to a developer of a horror game that says "Make it less horror-ey cause horror sucks" is not really appropriate. I know that's not the best example in the world but the point still stands I think. If you're giving feedback there really isn't any excuse to be rude, overly harsh or cruel. I'm not saying you have to sugar-coat anything or tread on eggshells but at the very least remember that you're talking TO a person.

Feedback should be constructive, it's there to help the developer. Yes developers need to be tough and deal with harsh and/or cruel reviews and negative things being said about their game but they shouldn't have to deal with someone saying directly to them "Your game is crap. Stop now.". Save that kind of thing for your reviews but if your comments are aimed directly at the dev - just don't be rude.

Chances are they won't take your feedback seriously anyhow if you're just being a tool about it. If you're constructive and give advice or explain why you didn't like something while also pointing out the things you thought worked [if any. You don't have to lie about it.] you're much more likely to be listened to.

But anyway, just my opinion~

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

 

Well, you certainly entitled to your opinion and while you do make many truths, I PERSONALLY disagree with a few.  But, that's the beauty of all different kinds of people. We all think differently.

As long as no one is pointlessly cruel.... :   "You don't deserve to make games!"   "You suck and you should burn your computer!"  "You are a failure!"

 

[shayoko]

ill  tell it like it is,if it sucks ill set it on fire and bury the dust 6 ft under

if it just didnt match my tastes,ill say i didnt like it is not a bad game

ill try to point out what i did like and enjoy

and of course what i didnt like(when rape is in a game i get seriously offended for example)

i dont belive in saying what people want ot hear just because

i dont lie

i tell it like it is

if it was something in real life that was that serious.yeah id be reluctant to but i woulnt make up a false story

however the problem to be is when someone just says

"this is ****" or something with similar meaning and nothing else

that is pointless

it does not tell the maker what the person disliked,what could of been improved

nothing!

so those i dont take seriously and frankly should just be removed

 

[kartersaint]

Still you're a great person to review my game, Shayoko. 

Because you put yourself to test my game directly rather than the recommendation such as feedback trades (No offence for other guys who're doing feedback trade and that's also need to be deserved, but I just prior users direction). That's.. really genuine act you did. And I sincerely appreciate it. 

 

[shayoko]

id had no idea people did that in this community honestly,i have not made a game with the engine myself

but ive seen 30+ tutorials so i have a general idea of

the hours,weeks,months ect that are spent making a game.

due to that

i have more respect for the people who take time to do so

frankly makes me sad when a maker gets not response at all.

 

[SinのAria]

I am very honest by nature, but I generally do leave feedback. This means that if I notice things that could be considered/improved/etc. I will say it.  If something I felt was good enough to warrant mentioning, I also say that.  If nobody tells the person what is bad or what could be improved, how are they supposed to improve?

That is why I always look for people to tell me what I did wrong. That way, I can see what people don't like so I can improve on stuff. What I did right only tells me so much.

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

My two cents~

I feel like people are getting two very different things mixed up. One is review. The other is feedback. They're not the same thing.

I'm around professional videogame journalists a lot and I've been lucky enough to write a few professional videogame reviews for web and print myself. I've spoken about this topic with a few different people and the thing that seems to be key in writing a review is that you're NOT addressing the developer of the game. You write reviews for an audience, potential players or purchasers of a product. Reviews are personal. They're an account and opinion of one person's experience with a game. They can be harsh as you like, they can be funny, they can be cruel - because they're not aimed at the developer. They're not attacks on a person, but a personal opinion of a game. Things like LPs generally tend to fall into this category for me too.

Feedback however, is not and IMO should not be personal - because it just risks becoming an attack rather than advice. If you don't like horror games at all then giving feedback to a developer of a horror game that says "Make it less horror-ey cause horror sucks" is not really appropriate. I know that's not the best example in the world but the point still stands I think. If you're giving feedback there really isn't any excuse to be rude, overly harsh or cruel. I'm not saying you have to sugar-coat anything or tread on eggshells but at the very least remember that you're talking TO a person.

Feedback should be constructive, it's there to help the developer. Yes developers need to be tough and deal with harsh and/or cruel reviews and negative things being said about their game but they shouldn't have to deal with someone saying directly to them "Your game is crap. Stop now.". Save that kind of thing for your reviews but if your comments are aimed directly at the dev - just don't be rude.

Chances are they won't take your feedback seriously anyhow if you're just being a tool about it. If you're constructive and give advice or explain why you didn't like something while also pointing out the things you thought worked [if any. You don't have to lie about it.] you're much more likely to be listened to.

But anyway, just my opinion~

I think you've said it best so far... not very many seem to get it, I'm afraid...

 

[_Shadow_]

What happens when you really do a reiview based on100% of your expectations for the game and the developer takes it as "personal flaming"?

I mean, I just had this issue, I will not give any details, but I wanted to state a few negative stuff about a game to the developer.

I was waiting for the end of the contest, so the comment would not affect any voting.

The guy was cocky, criticising every direct competitor, like he was an expert on a certain genre I really love.

On some comments he was 100% correct in my opinon.

On some others though... well those comments were so arrogant and cocky, I couldn't believe my eyes.

I could say I disagree, but to say so, I wanted to see what HE made.

So I thought hey, I should check this guy's game, it might be good. Right?

First thing I spotted was that it had too little votes. But I KNOW that this is not the case.

I have seen awesome games here, not being voted. And I am kinda disappointed. 

That was one of the games that my adblocker was refusing to show the link.

That's why I didn't played it during my 3 days marathon.

Anyways, I DISABLED my ad blocker, and downloaded it.

I  also told the guy that whoever actually does such a thing does him a favor.

Yes I was a little harsh since Dropbox and Google Drive exists.

Who wants to disable his ad blocker anyway?

Then suggested Google Drive or old good Dropbox for next time.

Yes that was a little harsh, I know.

Played the competiton version. It was somewhat broken.

Didn't voted of course, but it got my attention since it had potential and a nice idea.

Downloaded the patched version (after the competition deadline).

Played it. Had its issues.

I stated everything wrong AND EVERYTHING GOOD, INCLUDING THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME A GREAT GAME, IF FIXED,

telling the guy also that being cocky everywhere might turn against him.

And here goes the deal:

As you see I even talked to him about what not to do during a competition on commenting.

If I wouldn't read such cocky comments, that were undermining a lot of cometitors out there, I wouldn't expect somethign great.

I really got disappointed though.

Cause when someone criticise as an expert and ends up being a guy who makes his debut with a fast made game, well... what else can I say?

And now the answer to a question that might put light to this topic:

How did the guy took it?

Pretty well I can say.

1] He got annoyed.

2] He thought I flame him and criticize it biased on personal issues with him (?)

3] He said that my game screen shots were ugly. Okay.

4] He stated that my game graphics were also ugly. (?)

5] He said my game file was huge. (No I wont give him the non RTP link ) 

6] Stated how his browser indicates it is malicious. (LOL Chrome is a pain I guess)

7] Stated that I didn't finished the game, so my review is really not accurate (???)

and...

7] MADE A FEW CHANGES ACCORDING TO MY COMMENTS TO MAKE HIS GAME BETTER

8] RELEASED A NEW VERSION THAT COULD HAVE A CHANCE IN THE COMPETITION.

Bottomline....

I can sustain the flame of an annoyed person.

Even if I have good intentions, most of the time people will not react rational to criticising.

But as long as this will benefit the other guy, getting a harsh reply, doesnt make me feel bad.

I am actually happy this guy made the game better.

The thing is, many people react really bad on a criticism, even after asking for it.

Another thing is, that many people are aftaid of that and dont state their opinion.

"Being good comes first".

Yeah... but being good always with everyone makes someone fake don't you think?

I mean, when you disagree you have to express it.

Not being a drama queen or something.

simple things.

Cinnamon's comment sums up a lot of things.

Not to mention that Unravelled was in my opinion one of the best games in the competition.

 

[LoneWolfDon]

There's nothing wrong with feedback or criticism if it's constructive and when the person giving it isn't rude, insulting or being a tool about it.

If the person who is doing the review or giving feedback seems to mainly just be bashing and insulting the game and/or developer, going on with what seems to be a tirade full of swearing and hate, then chances are a Developer will see that person as a troll and probably ignore them anyways.

 

[Cinnamon]

-raaaah delete this from the quote because it's too long to quote-

Cinnamon's comment sums up a lot of things.

Not to mention that Unravelled was in my opinion one of the best games in the competition.

Thanks. Now I'm curious who the developer is you're talking about...haha. I have a suspicion but I might be entirely wrong.

 

[whitesphere]

I try to treat reviews and feedback the same.  It doesn't help other gamers if my review simply says, say, "This game sucks."  What helps in a review is what helps when giving feedback --- concrete details.

It's much more helpful to say "The game's pacing felt far too slow for my tastes.  The game has an intriguing idea, but the actual gameplay is not well balanced, with the fighter being well nigh indestructible.  Much of the dialog didn't seem to flow well or give good characterization.  In the end, the game could be a lot of fun if XYZ were true."  

The biggest difference is, in feedback, I might be a lot more detailed about what screens were good/bad and why, and obviously be OK giving out what would be spoilers.

But in both cases, being constructive, even for a very bad game, provides more information.  A brief, blunt statement only states my opinion, not WHY I feel this way about this particular game.  This gives other people, as well as the developer, more information.  The developer has good ammo to improve his/her game, and other players can make informed decisions about the game as it is now.  To me, it's a win/win.

As a developer, a blunt, brief comment only tells me the person didn't like the game overall, not "Here's what you did wrong or need to improve."  Now, if I act like a butthead and pretend I know everything about XYZ, or that my game couldn't be improved I'm asking for it.    I know no matter how hard I work on my game, no matter how much my skills improve, I'll always have more to learn and will always make mistakes.