I'll take an order of "save the world" with a side of "woo the girl" please

[TriceratopsX]

Romance systems! What do you think of them? What are some games that you think did romance well? How would you do a romance system in your game? Would it be an optional decision, or would it be a part of the story?


I look forward to seeing your guys' response! 

 

[bgillisp]

Personally, I feel like most games that have romances follow too formulaic an approach. Boy meets girl, boy woos girl, boy and girl sleep together, and that's the end of the romance. I'd like to see something different for a change. Why not some of the following?


1: A romance that is doomed to fail. Maybe the girl dies in the end? Or has a lover back home which she never told you about?


2: Or better yet, why not let the romance be with the big bad evil? I actually had plans at one time to make a game where the final evil was actually one of the female romance choices in the game, so you would have to decide could you stand to kill her, even after she went evil? Or maybe you understand what she did and why, and you side with her? Or maybe you try to convert her back? I think that could be neat, as it would force you to make some really tough choices.

 

[AwesomeCool]

@bgillisp - Nobody will like number 1, that is why (video games romances are more escapish than anything honestly).  2 sounds good.

 

[YoraeRasante]

1- Fate/Stay Night, first route. Tsukihime, first route, normal ending, Akiha both endings.


Actually, as far as I know it is a common ending in visual novels... but not always considered the "good ending", even if it is the "true" one.

2- ...that never happened? I was sure I saw it somewhere before...

 

[TriceratopsX]

@bgillisp The fist paragraph is why I stopped playing one of the Harvest Moon games (I forget which one but it was one of the older ones)


I like your 2nd idea that would be an interesting way to make a good/pacifist ending for something, like the big bad is a (Ifpt) woobie destroyer of worlds/broken bird that has given up on hope and love and hides herself in the town while she pulls the strings (man behind the man) manipulating the monsters to destroy the world.

 

[The Stranger]

Can't stand 'em! They're rarely immersive or realistic, and just come across as a dull form of fan service; I guess it's slightly better than big boobs and overly-sexy costumes, though.


I'd love to see more forms of bonding in games (brotherhood, actual friendship) rather than all meaningful relationships ending with a poorly done sex scene.

 

[Psykofreac]

I prefer relationship system that can sometimes lead to romance maybe just for some characters. That way you can focus more on the interaction and how the characters can react positively or negatively depending on their personality. On romance, I think a lot of games and even movies feel obligated to have a romance subplot and many times they end up feeling off. If you're not confident in the romance you're writing and you don't need it then I think it's best to leave it out.

 

[YoraeRasante]

Yes, I agree. Adding a romance system is not that good if it is just a subplot tacked on.


I like Symphonia's system. It seemingly changes a few minor things like who you see in sidequests and get costumes for, it never claims it is a romantic relationship for one - a refreshing thing really, and in the end it does affect the plot, since one part changes depending on who your relationship is better with (I was nervous at the time because the change ruined my usual battle strategy). And the best part, it is dependant mostly on the skits (character-expanding skippable dialogues, common on the series' games that I played) and character-focused sidequests.

 

[rue669]

I think the romance system has to be part of the story otherwise it seems like a cheap gimmick that could prove more annoying to the player than something they actually want to play. 

 

[bgillisp]

@TriceratopsX: Probably depends on the implementation. The way mine was going to work was the girl was one of your party members who the MC fell for through the story, but in the end she was working for the bad guy. The thing is, she was really in love with you, but she was also working for the bad guy because she thought his idea was better for the world. So you had to decide whether to kill her or forgive her and let her go. If anyone wants to use this too for their game go ahead, I don't have plans to make that story anymore (and even if I do later, it would look different than yours due to implementation).


@Psykofreac: Good advice! I've actually put off mine until last as I wanted to make sure it belonged in the game. As it is, the 'romance' plot might just end up being a bashful kiss late in the game by the girl.


One thing I do wish more games would do though is have more preexisting couples in the game. As it is, sometimes it feels like everyone is just waiting for you to come along. Where's the married couple that is out for adventure in their 20's? 

 

[Vox Novus]

Personally, I feel like most games that have romances follow too formulaic an approach. Boy meets girl, boy woos girl, boy and girl sleep together, and that's the end of the romance. I'd like to see something different for a change. Why not some of the following?


1: A romance that is doomed to fail. Maybe the girl dies in the end? Or has a lover back home which she never told you about?

@bgillisp - Nobody will like number 1, that is why (video games romances are more escapish than anything honestly).  2 sounds good.

Idk no. 1 has been used in all sorts of romance stories. There was a reason Romeo and Juliet was so popular after all, you could tell a tragedy was coming but still you'd go through it hoping there is a chance they can fight the inevitable. 


I really enjoyed how the romance of Tidus and Yuna was presented in Final Fantasy X. You had no control over it like in games like Dragon age where you pursue her yet it felt very real between the characters. Tidus knows nothing of the world he is in and as he goes along with the story he learns things much at the same time as the player, going from this perspective the player is given much more of an oppurtunity to "fall in love" with Yuna to. By the end of the game they sort of effect each other's viewpoints; Yuna goes from willing to sacrifice herself to being free-spirited and wanting to live and Tidus becomes willing to sacrifice himself for a greater good. I think this made for a very real type of relationship between the two.

 

[HexMozart88]

Or better yet, why not let the romance be with the big bad evil?

Like Mirai Nikki. But instead, make it maybe where the protagonist falls in love with an Ancient Greek Siren type of character, before realizing that he actually does love her. 


Anyway, if you want some of my ideas, I have a girl that has a major crush on the main character, then it turns out she has to leave at the end because she's an immortal being and has to go back to her lake. You could do something like that. Just don't... steal it. 

 

[TriceratopsX]

@TriceratopsX: Probably depends on the implementation. The way mine was going to work was the girl was one of your party members who the MC fell for through the story, but in the end she was working for the bad guy. The thing is, she was really in love with you, but she was also working for the bad guy because she thought his idea was better for the world. So you had to decide whether to kill her or forgive her and let her go. If anyone wants to use this too for their game go ahead, I don't have plans to make that story anymore (and even if I do later, it would look different than yours due to implementation.


One thing I do wish more games would do though is have more preexisting couples in the game. As it is, sometimes it feels like everyone is just waiting for you to come along. Where's the married couple that is out for adventure in their 20's? 

So you were thinking more along the lines of her being the mole, who ended up in love with the mark? Interesting. I personally wouldn't go this route (Or just possibly include a non-canon good ending) as I'm a sucker for both romance and happy endings.   Though that being said if something like this is done well it would be a massive tearjerker/bittersweet ending.

I like your 2nd idea that would be an interesting way to make a good/pacifist ending for something, like the big bad is a (Ifpt) woobie destroyer of worlds/broken bird that has given up on hope and love and hides herself in the town while she pulls the strings (man behind the man) manipulating the monsters to destroy the world.

Due to the fact that most everyone will read this in their own way, I think that even if two or three people use this idea it'll most likely be implemented differently in each. As one person reading this could take it to mean that the girl (Or boy actually) is a shrinking violet "living" in the town in a loose sense as she has no real connection or relationships with any of the other townspeople. (who possibly view her as weird/an outcast)


While another might portray her as a stepford smiler and possibly one of the more popular girls of the town well liked by almost everyone there and suspected by none. While she might believe the townspeople love only her mask.


Yet another might portray her as neither, or a combination of both.

 

[bgillisp]

@TriceratopsX: It would depend on implementation, and that part I never did figure out. I only got as far as writing it out the plan for it one summer when I worked in the library during the evenings, and no one came in. So, since I had a computer nearby, I used it to write out game plot flows. But what you saw was as far as I took it, as I was lacking on things like what was the bad guy's motive and stuff like that. But still, if anyone can try to make it all work, be my guest, I figure it might be 2060 before I get around to it.


Also you might want to consider quoting posts with the @ symbol, instead of quoting whole posts. Makes the page easier to read and it loads faster too.

 

[AwesomeCool]

@Vox Novus - Romeo and Juliet is a full-on comedy mocking teenage romance and overdramatic nature of them.  The humor is pretty much lost at this point (different eras, different cultures), so most people do not realize this.


Mcbeth is a Shakespearean version of a tragedy. 

 

[Vox Novus]

@AwesomeCool Not to derail the topic but you are totally wrong; Romeo and Juliet is considered a tragedy. Its literally in its name "The tragedy of Romeo and Juliet", it is most definitely not a full-on comedy. The play starts out early on telling you it is a tragedy of star-crossed lovers (meaning lovers that are never meant to intersect). I'm sorry it is just not a comedy, saying so is just wrong. Yes, the lovers Romeo and juliet are over-dramatic and foolish because of being young and in love but it doesn't change the results of their love is a tragedy brought upon by the violence and warring of their families that refuse to allow them to even be seen together. If you care to discuss it more feel free to message me so we don't break rules here.


That being said a comedic love like that might be an interesting way to present love in some types of games.

 

[kaukusaki]

I loathe romance in games. they feel tacked on and if I have 'choice', I should be able to choose who my characters fall in love with, not be forced what the programmer decides. I tend to avoid games that have that kind of mechanic. some folks like that sort of thing, however.


also, when making romance components, mix it up a little and don't rely so much on the same trite tropes.

 

[Basileus]

I have mixed feelings on romance in games.


On the one hand, there's a ton of great ways that relationships can be explored through gameplay. On the other hand...developers never seem to use any of them.


I do have to second Tales of Symphonia's "romance" system though. For those that haven't played the game (it's now on Steam and I highly recommend it to RPG lovers), the main protagonist Lloyd can end up with any of the party members at the end of the game - the nature of the relationship is mostly left ambiguous but leans romantic with the girls and either best friends or bromance with the guys. The game also does something awesome: it never tells you there is a romance system. There's a hidden stat "Affection Points" for every character except Lloyd that determine how much each character likes Lloyd (sometimes called "Lloyd Points" for obvious reasons). Colette, his childhood friend, starts with an absurd amount of points so she's usually #1 and in-game is strong hinted to have feelings for him from the start. Other characters start with some of no points and start out indifferent to him. Basic choices you make throughout the game secretly add points if you do things a character likes or subtracts points if you do things they disagree with. This is all pretty intuitive actually. Raine is very skeptical from the beginning of the game so she loses points if you blindly trust people; Colette is super nice so she gains points when Lloyd does nice things and loses them when he's cold; and whenever the party splits up whoever goes with Lloyd gains points and some lose points if they aren't chosen for certain fights.


What makes the system great is that it doesn't force actions on the player, it only alters things based on their choices. On a first playthrough you will likely get Colette cheering you on or expressing concern in cutscenes, but she can be replaced with other characters in those scenes and everyone has their own unique dialogue to keep them in characters. There's even a few sidequests and scenes towards the end that allow you to boost the party member of your choice and optional scenes on the world map to gain points and learn more about the party members. Even in the late-game scene that locks in Lloyd's #1 you get to pick from the top 3 or you can even pick none of them for a special option. It's all completely unobtrusive and mostly serves to give extra backstory for whichever party member you want to focus on the most. You will miss out on a lot of character development by only getting the scenes for 1 party member, but that also gives it a lot of replay value.


I'd say a good romance system should aim to be like that one and work based on the player's choices, rather than hang things over their head and shape their choices. Just keep track of what the players does and who they like to talk to most and give some nice extra scenes as a reward. You can even have completely different "routes" or events for each character so you aren't just shoehorning different characters into the same scenes - at the very least, they all need unique dialogue that fits their character. Use it as a chance to develop the party members even if it isn't strictly romantic. Just make sure to weave the scenes in where they make sense and the player may not even realize what your doing until a surprise kiss or a sudden romantic turn in the dialogue.

 

[HexMozart88]

For me, subtlety is key. Don't have your main character be doing things constantly just to impress the cutie. 


An example of what to do: 


Chrono Trigger - Crono liked Marle the whole time. Obvious, but they didn't beat the idea to death. it was just the cut scene where he's dreaming about Marle waking him up to go to work that gave it away, but that was only for slight humour purposes. 


What you shouldn't do: 


MC acts like an idiot around the girl. 


Girl is a tsundere (well, maybe)


Constant blushing and awkward conversations (I can't stand that! Not in the least!)


Doing ridiculous things to impress the girl (sword-fighting with biggest brute in the land, for example)


Acting like a jerk


extreme yanderes (unless you know how to make it good)


@Basileus I swear that was a concept in Fire Emblem. 

 

[Basileus]

@Basileus I swear that was a concept in Fire Emblem. 

Ah yes, the Fire Emblem support system. That was also really cool. Each character had a "relationship rank" (D-class to A-class usually) with some but not all other characters. When a unit is placed adjacent to a unit they can have a support relationship with they both get a stat bonus - I seem to recall the stats gained are different depending on the class of the units and I recall Blazing Sword had an affinity system to determine which bonuses a support gave). Each turn the units are adjacent to each other they gain points and after a certain number of turns their support level would go up 1 rank - i.e. from D-class to C-class, which gave higher stat bonuses. Each possible support pairing also got unique dialogue between the units to reflect what kind of relationship it was, with A-class supports usually being something like a love declaration for romantic pairings. I believe this also enables characters to react when the unit they are in a support with dies in at least some versions. 


Fire Emblem: Awakening did a pretty good job in my opinion since it had the support relationships rank up in camp between battles, which enables a lot more kinds of goofy and/or romantic scenes than you could get mid-battle. Like Sumia's thing for making Chrom pies, or Frederick putting naked posters of Chrom in all the soldiers' tents to boost morale, or Tharja stalking the Tactician in all of her supports...