"I'm you, but stronger" - fighting alternative parties in RPGs

Iron_Brew

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FightYourselves.gif

One of my favourite tropes is the "fight an alternative version of the party" gimmick - I do it quite a lot, I think. What're your favourite games that do this?

I really enjoyed the other group of pilgrims in FFX, and Dragon Quest 5's early game "Pip" enemies are a special favourite of mine:

1679558680983.png

So yeah! What's your take on this? Do you do this in your game? I wanna hear it!
 

TheoAllen

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I like this. Especially as the last battle. Too bad that not many games I played had this.
The memorable one for me was only two. Prototype 2 and Kingdom of Amalur.

Granted, in Prototype 2, it is not exactly you, but Alex Mercer has exactly the same arsenal as you. While in the Kingdom of Amalur, you fight your own clones several times that have similar moves as you.
 

heyguy

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I also really like this idea. Would love to include it in my game - wanted to do something like that in my dnd campaign. There was going to be a party of jerks going around claiming the players achievements. Unfortunately, I can't think of any games that played with that trope. Cowboy Bebop has a very funny episode revolving it, though.

Another trope I like, kinda' similar, is when basic aspects of character's personality is ripped out of them and made human. So, for example, there are five versions of Mario running around - cowardly, brave, annoying, lazy, honest to fault. Very cartoony but could work in a fantasy RPG.
 

gstv87

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I worked with the concept for a TF2 campaign called "Machine Attacks" (later renamed 'Retribution') where the act bosses were the TF2 mercenaries with their signature weapons, but beefed up.
I never got to finish the campaign, but I made the bosses and tested them, and they turned out an amazing fight when the party has to change tactics on the fly.
I did have to squeeze my brain trying to balance it in a way that it wouldn't lose the spectacular factor... I wanted the fight to be FUN, first, and tactical a close second... reward the players with the killing of the boss because they figured out the correct tactic, only to then engage the next part with a stronger boss.
originally the bosses were designed by another modder who simply "poof"-ed them back into existence, but I changed the first occurrence of that into a small cutscene that blew the bot up into pieces, and then reconstructed it, T-1000 style.
That, coupled with the dialog and the change in weapon loadout, cemented the concept "These guys have multiple stages".
from there, every boss fight would be an exchange between the boss and their human counterpart who'd despise the existence of each other and what they'd represent: Soldier was stupid, the robot was smart. Heavy was noble, the robot was selfish, etc.
for a multiplayer combat-based game such as TF2, something like a cutscene was unheard of at the time.

when you have such varied gameplay styles as the TF2 classes, it's really hard to not repeat mechanics, but if you lay them out before anything else with the idea of doing that, even if you decree their power without any criteria in a way that they're a stepped progression (regardless of logic), the final product always comes out with a signature "flavor", because you're not always fighting any of the extremes of everything, it's always a mixture.
list all of the weapons, give them a signature style, and number them in order of power, and THEN assign them to the bosses.
the same boss can't wield the strongest and weakest weapon at the same time.... someone else will have to be stronger or weaker at any given point.
Scout was the weakest, so one of his stages was to spawn multiple copies of him. Overwhelms something as Engi's turret or Heavy's minigun, but Spy can simply shock the lot of them at once.
Sniper is vulnerable when he uses his single-shot rifle, so I removed the rifle and gave him a bow.... arrows can be deflected and sent back, so IF you have a Pyro in your team, that's HIS opening... if not, you can still beat the boss by taking cover and shooting at it.

EDIT:
I just remembered I took that as a base to make my RPG database.
the final fight of the tutorial is basically the same skill set of the player characters, built onto another set of characters that are the training masters you face along the way.
it's always the same selection of builds (knight, rogue, wizard and bard), with the same set of skills, but the end result of the fight depends on what you pick to face them.
if you have a knight and the master knight uses aggression on your knight, you no longer have command of that PC knight, you can no longer command it to direct the fight, and the other master characters can target whomever they want.
if the master wizard silences your wizard, you can no longer use it to attack OR heal, if your healer is also down for whatever reason.
if anything, this fight is way more unforgiving than the TF2 fight, because TF2 you always fight many vs one boss... this is party vs party, way more tactical, and way more dramatic... but it's fine, it's intended to be, because the game is dramatic, because there's huge stakes when gods have to intervene to time out the war that's going out of control.
 
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HexMozart88

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Sort of like Metal Sonic? Yeah, I like it quite a bit. I just can't really think of a time where it would make sense, really, other than the boss trying to make fun of you.
 

Maliki79

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I'm thinking of this idea for my game, too.
I want to have a Colosseum where the player can have their party challenge different groups of enemies and eventually a version of the party.

If possible, I'd like to also make a password system that can create any version of the party and that other players can make and share to challenge each other.
Way, WAY down the road, but it's an idea!
 

ZombieKidzRule

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I know I have experienced that mechanic before. I think maybe in Knights of Pen & Paper and maybe in King's Bounty.

I think it can be an interesting thing.

Another version would be having an enemy party that is the exact opposite of the player party. Like an anti-party.
 

Iron_Brew

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I know I have experienced that mechanic before. I think maybe in Knights of Pen & Paper and maybe in King's Bounty.

I think it can be an interesting thing.

Another version would be having an enemy party that is the exact opposite of the player party. Like an anti-party.
Crystal Project does this in a fun way
 
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I just had a very awful idea.

I thought of Dark Link when I read all that, and then my brain went, "what if for a turn based battle, you face a foe that mimics your every move, to where it sends back at you even your strongest attacks?"

I'll see myself out :p
 

HumanNinjaToo

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I honestly do not like this trope. I've seen it used in a lot of games, and never in a way that stood out in as good. Rarely have I seen it used and thought it made the game better. It comes across as cheesy and lazy more times than not. That being said, I have seen it used in a way that provides some humor, and I'm okay with that. I can't think of a single time it ever provided a substantial challenge (other than bloated stats, which isn't really a challenge TBH).
 
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This is a rare troupe that I think is interesting when done correctly. I like it when a bunch of posers pretends to be your party members, (this applies when they get recognized for their actions). These posers are usually rude and greedy but they pretend to be nice. I have seen this before, but I can't quite remember where.
 

Sword_of_Dusk

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A great version of this exists in Fire Emblem Awakening. A particular paralogue you have access to through SpotPass will pit the player against exact copies of whoever they field for that map. It can be one of the hardest fights if you field all your top units.
 

RCXGaming

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I honestly do not like this trope. I've seen it used in a lot of games, and never in a way that stood out in as good. Rarely have I seen it used and thought it made the game better. It comes across as cheesy and lazy more times than not. That being said, I have seen it used in a way that provides some humor, and I'm okay with that. I can't think of a single time it ever provided a substantial challenge (other than bloated stats, which isn't really a challenge TBH).

Respectfully disagree because I love this trope. Plus it begs the question what a "good" version of this trope would be to you, if the grand majority of interpretations in media you've seen aren't "good".

I think the "I'm you but stronger" trope can be an amazing way to cap off a part of a game narratively or gameplay-wise if you play your cards right, like if the mirror characters are used in a way that says something about the main character or their crew. Or the enemies copying you are far more competent at playing the game than you are, and you get to taste what it is you've been doing to every other enemy in the game.

The SA-X in Metroid Fusion is a perfect example of what I like in that it's quite literally the fully maxed out player character from the previous game trying to gun you down, and it does so much damage that if you keep messing around you'll die a quick death.

That and I just think monsters trying to copy the main characters like in that one pic @Iron_Brew showed are adorable.
 

HumanNinjaToo

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Respectfully disagree because I love this trope. Plus it begs the question what a "good" version of this trope would be to you, if the grand majority of interpretations in media you've seen aren't "good".
@Iron_Brew showed are adorable.

I suppose a good version, IMO, is when the trope is used to insert some comedy into the story. My biggest issue with this trope are a couple of the common ways I've seen it used. Also, I haven't played every game out there, so I'm sure examples and uses of this trope don't always fit my interpretation.

The mirror/copy/clone just isn't good story plot IMO. I think there are better ways to provide internal/external conflict with a character than by having them face their literal self.

I suppose, overall, I just think it's an easy out for a lazy story, and I resent it when I see the trope used in that way.
 

kirbwarrior

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It's definitely the most memorable battle of Secret of Mana. And part of that is just how hard it goes in copying your party from a clone dying if that party member dies to copying your weapon skill and always going for the strongest attacks available (a key way to make it easier to avoid the attacks altogether).

The precisely one way I've used it was when party members turncoat and fight you. You already know everything they are capable of and all their numbers, so it added a different sort of strategy to the battle. In turn, they already know what you are capable of and might have readied themselves and their party for it.

As for other games, this is basically most of the story battles in Final Fantasy Tactics. One fight in particular does what I did; have a party member switch over, which can lead to some funny things if you know about it ahead of time (Hey, boss, you forgot to equip anything).
 

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