[Improvement] Tie Attributes to Actor instead of Class

Do you want this?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 52.0%
  • No

    Votes: 10 40.0%
  • Yes, but not important

    Votes: 2 8.0%

  • Total voters
    25

RetroBoy

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The simple answer (in my opinion) is because it will make the Editor better and easier to use. Why should something which is unweildly and difficult remain so simply because its been that way for a while?

And as for "why should they" well, how about this, if someone wants to use the plugin/script with the updated MV they can hire or ask someone to use CTRL + F to search the plugin file and replace ABC with XYZ and then click "Replace All."

To the "average user" it is better to have something which is easier to use and balance than a thousand scripts that let you do similar things in different ways. If things were to work the way I'd recommended it would be a significant *improvement* regarding development.

As is, to have actor-based attributes I need to:

Have a plugin. Copy and paste every single base stat minus 1 into each actor notes. Then, I need to go to Class, calculate the stat bonuses per level, determine what that would be at level 100, divide that by itself, etc.

Its a pain, its an honest to god pain and the purpose of having the editor is to make it easier on the user. Simple enough that a child could use it, right?

That means being intuitive and flexible.

I've l ready done the work needed to stat out everything in my game so I gain nothing from doing this. I just know for a fact that if I could just do it the way I recommended I would have saved myself HOURS of time and I wouldn't need a plugin.
 

kovak

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Why not both instead?
No data need to be broken then
 

RetroBoy

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Simply because I'm trying to think of a way of "improving" things so they re simpler and more streamlined, but like I said, honestly I don't mind either way at this point. I've done the extra work. I just think it is probably one of the most overlooked (and important) updates that is needed.
 

bgillisp

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You're forgetting two things.

1: This change would break ALL save games made for existing projects. So you would be forcing all players of your game to start over. This would be a disaster for completed games already released who decided to update to get the other new features. Look up the disaster when one of the MV updates accidentally broke the character generator files for old versions, or, better yet, look up what happened to Quest for Glory 4 when they released a patch which broke all save games (back in 1994). It was a major disaster, players were upset, and they probably lost many future sales due to this.

2: The feature you propose would make a class change systems impossible to make (and if you say it is possible, then you need to go back and play that game, as you don't know how that system really works), as the stats would be tied to the actor instead of the class. In fact, what would be the point of the class tab anymore? It would honestly serve almost no purpose (the EXP tab and skill learn tab is all I can think of that is left that can't be done on the actor side already). But, if you wanted to make a class change system like Dragon Quest 9 did, that would now be impossible as the stats would be tied to the actor, and changing the class would do nothing.
 

RetroBoy

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"1: This change would break ALL save games made for existing projects. So you would be forcing all players of your game to start over. This would be a disaster for completed games already released who decided to update to get the other new features. Look up the disaster when one of the MV updates accidentally broke the character generator files for old versions, or, better yet, look up what happened to Quest for Glory 4 when they released a patch which broke all save games (back in 1994). It was a major disaster, players were upset, and they probably lost many future sales due to this."

This is legit. I never considered existing saves. In my mind once a game was released and people were playing it you wouldnt be messing with anything in it anymore. It would just "exist" as a game. That was how it worked in my mind anyway.

"2: In fact, what would be the point of the class tab anymore? It would honestly serve almost no purpose (the EXP tab and skill learn tab is all I can think of that is left that can't be done on the actor side already)."

This however is the opposite of true. Choosing a different Class would mean your actor gained attributes and skills differently as they advanced. For Example, a level 20 warrior is going to have 20 levels of +5 to ATK (around +100 ATK on top of base stats) while a Mage might only have +20 (from their +1 ATK per level). It would also mean changing your classes allowed your stats to grow erratically ("I want to be faster I am going to take a few levels in Thief!").

Of course, the other most obvious purpose of classes would be Skill Availability.

LOL, maybe after I finish my game I should just try to build my own Game Maker Software. lol :aswt:
 

bgillisp

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??? Ok. now you are proposing something completely different from your request. Your request was to put the stats on the actor instead of the class. If you do that there are NO stats on the class, so you CANNOT gain +5 ATK on a level up for ANY class. The engine would only see that you are level 20, and give you the stats for level 20 that you set for the actor, and it would not care what class you are now (as there would be no class stats per your request).

I think you may need to look at your request again and rephrase it. Because what you suggest is not the same as tie base stats to actor instead of class. Instead -> no stats to class, so there is no changing of stats via classes ever. As it is, it reads more like you want the stats gained via leveling to be permanent, which would break many class change plug-ins (and again, would make it impossible to do a DQ9 style system, as that game made NO class stats permanent unless you earned it with your skill points). Remember, not everyone wants all class stats gained to be permanent.

What I think will work though is if we modify the class tab. Put the stats there as they are now, then put a second tab for stats which are permanent gains for that level up. Then if you want a level in Fighter to give you +1 ATK no matter your class, you put it in that tab. That should work and do what it appears you want, per the last post.
 
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RetroBoy

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In my first post I wrote:

"Also, it feels more natural to me to start with the attributes on the race/actor and then have the class modify those attributes with the class choice."
 

bgillisp

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Right, but you didn't state how to do that. That is the problem, and therefore the confusion. You should always be specific as possible, as the title implies no stats on classes (for starters).

As it is, if I see what you are asking for, you are now asking for a total rewrite of how classes/actors work. So no, it would not be a one line change in plug-ins, but a 100 - 300 line change, or maybe more. And the bolded line you posted there does NOT imply the class stats are permanent, but your post a few up does. So that is why I say you really need to decide and clarify what you want in this suggestion.
 

RetroBoy

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We all know its not even going to be implemented so whats it even matter?

I thought I was pretty clear, if you're asking me to sit down and write a complete feature breakdown then its not going to happen. I tried doing that with the "Basic Mechanics" thread and was criticized for that being too detailed and having too many features.

Like I said, in the Demo for RPG MAKER FES for the 3DS, it looks like a simple click the arrow up, click the arrow down system for Class Stats.

All I'm proposing is the ability to set your starting stats in the Actor Tab with a visual graph (like in the example I gave a few posts ago) and then the ability to set how much you gain per level advanced in Class. Its simple, its intuitive, and it would make the Editor "better" for most users.

Frankly, the whole "It would break all the Plugins" argument is a bit lame. I am pretty sure if I wanted I could find a plugin that would become incompatible for just about any improvement made. So, should we not improve the program at all -- if that is the logic, why even pitch it to the community?

Any improvement is apparently going to enrage the artists because it would cost them work, enrage the scriptkiddies because it would cost them work, or is impossible to implement despite the fact there are functional visual examples of it working.

If you're trying to discourage people from posting so only certain people's choices get picked, great job. Because I'm seeing nothing but "Won't work because of X" and not a lot of "This is the problem, here is the work around" and I don't have time for "cants."

If what I'd proposed was even being seriously considered I might put a bit more thought into it but lets both be real, its not. There won't be any change I recommended happening. We're going to get like... actor casting animation added or like... some custom variable thing or obscure mapping mechanic implemented.

I made this topic (these topics) to try to help but its caused nothing but frustration and grief so I am going to bow out at this point, I don't feel like anything is being added and I am sure whatever improvements are made will be so minimal anyway that it will be barely noticeable because anything else would upset too many people.
 

bgillisp

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The problem is, I think you are trying to blur 5 - 6 features into one. You really need to practice breaking your features into ONE feature. What you got here is base stats on actors + a different leveling system (yes, what you proposed is a different leveling system) + levels being tied to actors + a rewrite of how EXP works. That's 4 features into one. Basically, what you have here is your dream plug - in, not a feature that belongs as a specific feature.

I also don't know why you're asking to make it like FES. FES isn't even out yet. It comes out late summer (August 2017 per Amazon.com). All videos you see might be obsolete. I'd say wait before pitching an idea like FES, as we don't honestly know what FES is going to be like! I mean, how do you even know how the leveling works in FES? You can't, as no one does yet.

And honestly, if you had looked at one of my posts above, I did propose a work-around that could do both. What I'm doing is trying to get all of you to clarify your ideas for plausibilty. Its too easy to say add feature like game x, but not understand how it works. I mean, I wanted a tactical battle system like FFT for my game, but we all have to compromise.

As it is, your ideas can work with some touch up. But it is going to need that touch up, else you will get a lot of NO votes as people will not understand what they are voting for.
 

RetroBoy

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The problem is, I think you are trying to blur 5 - 6 features into one. You really need to practice breaking your features into ONE feature.

Yeah, the problem is me.

What you got here is base stats on actors + a different leveling system (yes, what you proposed is a different leveling system) + levels being tied to actors + a rewrite of how EXP works.

You keep coming up with madness and putting it in my mouth. I am not asking for leveling to work differently. Guess what, if you set a scale using the graph that now exists, you can set it up so that you gain +3 on a stat per level by just making a Max Stat 333. Mechanically, its the exact same damn thing. You're still gaining 3 stats per level. Its just instead of being able to click "+3" you have to figure out how much you want a stat to give, then multiply that by 99 and then auto it in. Its just a pain. I was asking for efficiency and simplicity, not a new level system.

That's 4 features into one. Basically, what you have here is your dream plug - in, not a feature that belongs as a specific feature.

No its not. Its a basic simple method of function. So what is it, am I not detailed enough or am I too detailed? Why are you struggling with this, you know it doesn't even matter. Its not going to happen.

I also don't know why you're asking to make it like FES. FES isn't even out yet. It comes out late summer (August 2017 per Amazon.com). All videos you see might be obsolete.

Is that the Company's Official Stance, the ADVERTISEMENT FOR THE PRODUCT RELEASED ON THE OFFICIAL NINTENDO WEBSITE is not representative of the final product? If that is the case, that is a crime. We see the level up in the advertisement.

I'd say wait before pitching an idea like FES, as we don't honestly know what FES is going to be like! I mean, how do you even know how the leveling works in FES? You can't, as no one does yet.

Its in the advertisement. :|

And honestly, if you had looked at one of my posts above, I did propose a work-around that could do both. What I'm doing is trying to get all of you to clarify your ideas for plausibilty. Its too easy to say add feature like game x, but not understand how it works. I mean, I wanted a tactical battle system like FFT for my game, but we all have to compromise.

I have a tactical battle system like FFT in my game. In my other thread, you said you didn't want a jump skill because you didn't play games that had it... FFT has the jump/vanish mechanic in it. :|

As it is, your ideas can work with some touch up. But it is going to need that touch up, else you will get a lot of NO votes as people will not understand what they are voting for.

It doesn't even matter and if you think that the programmers are going to look at my thread and go "Gee Wiz, this is a great idea I'll just copy and paste his post into the engine and it will work" then what the hell man. Yes there are going to need to be tweeks but so long as you don't even seem to be reading what I said and obsessed with finding reasons it won't work, who even cares anymore?

I'm putting time into this thread I SHOULD be using building my game... TO TRY TO MAKE A WAY TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE SAVE TIME... and its just paradoxical and stupid.

I'm going to say this last thing and leave it at that:

We were asked for how to "improve MV" and I tried to help. What I am proposing would mean the following:

When you opened the editor you would have an actor and you could set their base statistics.
Thus, you could set the sprite, set the actors stats. You could then click over to the Class Tab and choose the stats they gained per level as they advanced in that class. Thus, if the class was changed those bonuses would change but the actor's base statistics (the one's on the Actor Tab) would remain unchanged.
The Experience they use would be Determined by Class (which is how every single other RPG in the world works, basically). If you wanted certain
actors to advance slower because they have higher base statistics could be easily applied via giving them an EXP penalty via parameter control.
The ADVANTAGE to this improvement is that it follows the internal logic and constancy of basic Game Design for Casual Users.

I am sure there would be "complications" with some plugins but I am not the person that is going to solve that. Nor do I really care. All I care about is the process is easier for people to make games and follows more consistent logic.

We COULD simply add the ability to add flat stat bonuses as part of the engine. This would "mechanically" have the same effect. HOWEVER, it would not "improve" the experience because you'd have to look for that and you'd still have these big stat graphs on the Class Tab. The "point" the "main point" is so when someone picks up the engine and starts designing characters they can think...

"This is the strong guy with one eye" and "This is going to be a smart woman with red hair" or "This is going to be a Moogle-like character so they're going to have a high MDF stat" and then "using the simple Change Class" function (from within the builder) you could effectively remove a NEED for a job-change plugin all together.

Right now, in the builder, you can do EVERYTHING I'm suggesting but you are limited to Statistic increases by % (which is a pain) AND the layout is clumsy and difficult to navigate for new users. And I know it is something that has confused people because I just googled it and saw its a question that has been asked fairly often in the past.

So its a hurdle. Remove the hurdle. If you want to "improve" the engine and make it better, you don't need to give it the ability to store more variables or anything like that. You need it to be easier to use and to do the bare minimum we see in most modern RPG games (as I mentioned in my other thread). If people don't want to use them, they don't need to, but its better that these simple mechanics are there and NOT used than not there when people go looking for them.

Likewise, the "stats on the actor page" thing is about being intuitive and flexible for new users. They should not have to do what I did and sit there for a week doing advanced mathematics "If this actor has +10% to their attack and they get an ATK buff of +75% what bracket does that put them in for when I am scaling my equipment and balancing the game, etc."

Anyway, this is my last post in the Improvements Section. I don't feel like I am contributing anything at this point and I've said all there is on this.
 
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bgillisp

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Here's the problem and why I say you are asking for 4 features in one. See this post of yours?

"
This however is the opposite of true. Choosing a different Class would mean your actor gained attributes and skills differently as they advanced. For Example, a level 20 warrior is going to have 20 levels of +5 to ATK (around +100 ATK on top of base stats) while a Mage might only have +20 (from their +1 ATK per level). It would also mean changing your classes allowed your stats to grow erratically ("I want to be faster I am going to take a few levels in Thief!").

That feature there REQUIRES a rewrite of how leveling works. If you change your class you start over at level 1. That is how the system is. So there is no leveling erratically like you suggest here, as that is not possible in the current system. If you change to a thief you don't gain +AGL to the current stats, you start over at level 1, with the stats of a level 1 thief. That is why I say you are asking for a full rewrite of how leveling works. Even moving it to the actor level is still a rewrite of how leveling work.

Now, if we dropped that idea and made it separate, then it is much easier to do. But that one part of the idea is the issue, as it is what is requiring most of the rewriting.

HOWEVER....I will admit you are onto something with this idea. So don't read this as a can't do this please. What I think CAN be done is this: How about a system where you can add a feature at level up? Say you want to gain +5 ATK at Actor Level 10, but not until then? Or what about if someone levels up their Thief to Level 20, and wants them to gain +20% Critical hit then? I think THAT is doable at the class/actor level (then you can just choose where to implement it), and would come close to your idea in the end with minimal plug-in breaking. Then, you can do your idea with all of it on the actor level, and the rest of us can do it on the class level. Thoughts?

Edit: And I do agree with one thing. The editor could really use a + stat feature instead of just * stat feature. But that is a different topic altogether.
 
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Andar

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OK, please note that there are two different points here that need to be handled completely different - the opinion "what is easier" and the technical problems of implementation.

@RetroBoy for you that change might be more intuitive and easier - but I disagree on that. Partially that is because of your assumption to use the actor data for defining the race - I on the other hand work with multiple classes and use one class to define the racial attributes and other classes to define the education the actor got, keeping the actor itself for individual differences (so that two elves aren't automatically identical actors).

But that part is an opinion where there is no right and false - and the only way to determine that is the poll. If enough people consider that easy to vote it up, then that means a lot of people are the same opinion that it is easier than you - and if not, then you have to accept that other people consider this non-intuitive even if you personally consider it better.

The other part is the technical consequences of programming it that way. There is a very old topic "can't the scripting be made easier" from the time when Ace was the latest maker. The discussion in that topic basically showed that if people do not understand how computers work, they will not understand the problems their requests are causing - and the people who did understand how computers work could only confirm that the scripting was already the easiest possible and that all suggestions to make it more easy would cause more problems and reduce the versatility.
But they also confirmed - and that is the important part for many other people - that it takes a minimum of half year of intense study to learn what it means to really program (or script).

Yes, there are a lot of things that might look easy when seen on any screen - but getting them there is anything but easy.
And several parts of your suggestion are anything but easy to implement, and would break a lot of existing scripts and games.

That is the main reason why I suggested several posts back to implement this as a new trait with additive effect instead of moving the parameters to the actors. Yes, that will require you to click more and it might not be as intuitive as you want - but it would give you the option you want (the option to set base parameters inside the actor) without causing the massive problems a move of the data from one tab to the other (and changing how the datastructures work in addition to that) would cause.
 

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