In a game where you chose your own classes, what's a necessity?

[Seacliff]

Alright, so as a side project, I'm making a heavily inspired Etrian Odyssey game. In case you are wondering in Etrian Odyssey you recruit your own characters and chose their class, and (obviously) the class they are determines how the function in battle. Now, I currently have all the resources and class names for said classes, but I'm still iffy on how each class should function and how to balance them.

So my question to you, fellow RMers, when you play a game that allows customization in classes, what do you always see? I get I should have a physical attack, magical attack, and a healer, but what else? And to spice things up a bit, what type of class functions would you LIKE to see in a game like this, even if it's not vital?

 

[Arsist]

Well, generally I like the idea of being able to mix up things a bit. Such as a battle mage, a spellcaster focused more on infiltration and ignoring of defenses than raw damage, a dancer who is a dexterity-based buff/debuffer ailment-type mage, and a battler that focuses on surviving normally lethal blows, avoiding ailments, and getting bonuses when near death. And then of course you've got your choice of passives and skill trees/etc.

 

[Andar]

I would like to see some classes that are intentionally non-combat related. So the player would know that combat would become more difficult but gain other advantages for it.


For example a merchant that enables the shop faster than by regular means (getting you better equipment sooner), or a thief that cannot fight but steal the drops (those enable shop access in Etrian Odyssee) and so on.

 

[Seacliff]

Well, generally I like the idea of being able to mix up things a bit. Such as a battle mage, a spellcaster focused more on infiltration and ignoring of defenses than raw damage, a dancer who is a dexterity-based buff/debuffer ailment-type mage, and a battler that focuses on surviving normally lethal blows, avoiding ailments, and getting bonuses when near death. And then of course you've got your choice of passives and skill trees/etc.

Though this is vague, I'll still keep it in mind. I like the idea of a spellcaster focused on infiltration, maybe I could have a status effect that gets stronger the more you level it up in the skill tree (That seemed to loop back to EO pretty quick)

I would like to see some classes that are intentionally non-combat related. So the player would know that combat would become more difficult but gain other advantages for it.

For example a merchant that enables the shop faster than by regular means (getting you better equipment sooner), or a thief that cannot fight but steal the drops (those enable shop access in Etrian Odyssee) and so on.

I like this, I don't know if I can handle a script as deep as EO's items drop (since different drops are obtained by different means of defeating the enemy, and a Store stock script is such a pain to work sometimes), but I like your Idea with the merchant. Maybe I could work in some crazy ideas on how Bravely Default Merchant's work (through money at the enemy or paying them off to leave the battlefield)

I'm liking these ideas so far.

 

[bgillisp]

In my game I used to have a class that focused on mixing items you found in the game for their skills. I eventually axed it as I wasn't coming up with good combinations that were balanced, but maybe you could have one class that uses two items in your inventory to perform skills? Yanfly's skill cost manager will allow you to do that, though you have to link the items to the specific skill (so its not quite like FFX Mix command, here it will always be that one Bone + One dynamite is required to perform the Death Bomb skill).

 

[Warpmind]

Important thing to keep in mind, if players are allowed to choose their class combinations, you must avoid class combinations that are either chanceless or overpowered; there needs to be some balancing of sorts.

As a thought experiment, consider the odds for players who decide on various challenge runs - "All Mages", "All Rogues", "All Fighters" - and think about how each encounter needs to be possible to get past with only the features of one class available. Make unique class features interesting, evocative, by all means make them remarkably powerful in one or two situations, but don't make them vital for the game's progress.

 

[Andar]

yes and no.


I meant intentionally make those classes less combat-oriented (which means you don't give the banker too many combat skills) to make the game harder to win.


And all the "balancing" needed would be to give each class a combat capacity number, and the program then can calculate your final points based on the total sum of the combat capacity.


Let's say a regular fighter has 4 points, a berserker class would be for beginner and have six points due to it being overpowered (resulting in less highscore).


And the banker would have one or two points combat rating, allowing players to get a lot more points if they manage to beat the game with less powerfull classes.

 

[Seacliff]

@bgillisp

Some kind of Alchemy or Compounding type class? I'll give it some thought. Though I've tried such before and I'll admit that coming up with unique item possibilities isn't the easiest thing to do.

@Warpmind

It seems a lot of playtesting and playthroughs is going to be needed for this... thanks for the heads up.

@Andar

Oh, that makes sense. I should probably work on these 'non-combat' classes last, though. To make sure all the other classes are balanced and to figure out how they could benefit from this type of class.

 

[Chaos Avian]

Seacliff, since your project why don't you base some classes of EO somewhat? For example in 1 and 2 you had the Survivalist who although great in battle, you could also make them Gather, Chop and Mine. The Farmer from 3 is a great example of a non combat that is really helpful.

Also for other classes other than the Physical, Magic attacker and healer. A status based class (love the Nightseeker :3) could be fun to play with, or a Red Mage/ WarMagus. Though personally I think that classes with great synergy with others are great. For example (yet another EO reference), the WarMagus and Hexer go together really well. Hexer inflicts Curse, WarMagus uses Cursecut, regains TP, WarMagus uses Transfer to fill other members TP during battle. Or even the Arcanist and Night Seeker. If NS doesn't get the status, Arcanist provides backup to inflict status meaning you kill things faster. Ninja (while subbed as Zodiac) can use Dark Ether to allow line to use skills at a TP free cost. Combine with Bunshin and you're laughing.

So yeah, mix and match by playing around with them. I'm sure you can come up with more synergist combos that don't break your game

As for what's 'needed' it depends on your max party count. I don't think a pure physical attacker would be necessary if there's a buffer/ debuffer or a gimmicky character that can dish out pain. Same for a magic attacker, you could have a member that gives elemental stats out to the party with some other passives. Plus hybrid classes are always welcome in my book. I'm a sucker for having a gag character that's useless/ detrimental but then gets awesome (or at least awesome before everyone else. Like the Goof-Off from DQ3 can become a Sage earlier than anyone else.) 

 

[Bribolox]

I like the idea of a support class, like a Bard, who can fight a little, cast a few minor healing spells, but mostly raises and lowers the party's and enemy's ATK, AGI and such.

 

[Seacliff]

@Chaos Avian

I am using Etrian Odyssey as the main inspiration for most of my classes classes. But if all my classes function like classes in EO, people may as well play EO rather than my game.

In short, it would be nice to have a couple of unique classes. I do like your synergy ideas, all your examples wouldn't be hard to replicate in RPG maker. Also, five characters can be in the party at a time, with a front and back line like EO.

@Bribolox

I agree, supporters are a must.

 

[Mimironi]

I love games that let you customize because of the replay-ability... and my love for dungeon crawlers. 

I havent looked through the comments but I have a list of classes for a similar game idea i once had :/

Bastion (The paladin/Fortress)

Merchant

Marksman

Crafter(Alchemist Class)

Runic Mage(like Etrian odyssey 4's arcanist)

Beast Tamer (like EO3's Wildling, maybe?)

Elementalist

Beneficialist(or healer. healer's fine.)

Combatant (the real warrior class)

Strategist(survivalist)

 

[Filius Rex]

You should try to come up with class ideas that change the way the player decides on a strategy during combat, as well as changes the player's goals in combat. For example, in final fantasy tactics there was the mediator job class who could recruit enemy units through the "talk" command (if I'm remembering correctly). This is a good example of a unique class because it changes the goals the player may have in combat while you're using that class. A player using the mediator class may instead choose to weaken an enemy unit and then position the mediator close by and attempt to recruit the enemy, rather than just pummelling the enemy with the strongest skills and spells. 

 

[captainproton]

You could also play with elemental affinities and enemy specialities. Eg:

Reaper: has mostly anti-ghost/anti-demon attacks

Druid: uses nature magic

Hunter: anti-beast attacks

Wizard: fire magic

Sorcerer: lightning magic

 

[dungeon diver]

I would like to see some classes that are intentionally non-combat related. So the player would know that combat would become more difficult but gain other advantages for it.

For example a merchant that enables the shop faster than by regular means (getting you better equipment sooner), or a thief that cannot fight but steal the drops (those enable shop access in Etrian Odyssee) and so on.

I like those Western RPG conventions that make the maps themselves into formidable enemies of their own.

In my current project, every class has access to a skill set of "Talents" that are exclusively out-of-battle skills.

The main character at the start of the game is a Mentalist. From the start, he has the Talents "Detect Enemies", "Lifeline", "Warp", and "Project Guise".

"Detect Enemies" reveals all the hidden touch encounters that serve as more than half the traps on a given map. They no longer activate on collision but they can still block the player. If they aren't in the way of progress, the player can move around the revealed encounters.

"Lifeline" sets the player's current coordinates in variables, while "Warp", of course, uses these variables to return to the point where Lifeline was cast. Lifeline's values are set from time to time to prevent the player from escaping points of no return.

"Project Guise" is based on the D&D spell "Friends"; it changes the way NPCs react to you and also has the in-battle effect of allowing the character to use the skill "Subsume", which is an extremely high success rate confusion spell.

I think out-of-combat utility in spells can add a lot to game maps, which can otherwise feel like a vehicle for moving from encounter to encounter.

 

[Tigersong]

I'd like to see a healer who can actually stand up for him/herself in battle. For whatever reason, the convention seems to be for healers to have practically no physical defense. In this case, it's a good idea to go against tradition.

 

[Ralpf]

I like those Western RPG conventions that make the maps themselves into formidable enemies of their own.

In my current project, every class has access to a skill set of "Talents" that are exclusively out-of-battle skills.

The main character at the start of the game is a Mentalist. From the start, he has the Talents "Detect Enemies", "Lifeline", "Warp", and "Project Guise".

"Detect Enemies" reveals all the hidden touch encounters that serve as more than half the traps on a given map. They no longer activate on collision but they can still block the player. If they aren't in the way of progress, the player can move around the revealed encounters.

"Lifeline" sets the player's current coordinates in variables, while "Warp", of course, uses these variables to return to the point where Lifeline was cast. Lifeline's values are set from time to time to prevent the player from escaping points of no return.

"Project Guise" is based on the D&D spell "Friends"; it changes the way NPCs react to you and also has the in-battle effect of allowing the character to use the skill "Subsume", which is an extremely high success rate confusion spell.

I think out-of-combat utility in spells can add a lot to game maps, which can otherwise feel like a vehicle for moving from encounter to encounter.

I really like that idea.

 

[Wavelength]

I'd like to see a healer who can actually stand up for him/herself in battle. For whatever reason, the convention seems to be for healers to have practically no physical defense. In this case, it's a good idea to go against tradition.

In most single-player, turn-based RPGs, this is the only way to add challenge to battles that would otherwise be absurdly easy with a healer on your team.  And honestly, even low DEF is usually not nearly enough, but it's better than nothing.

Your healer's best magic spells usually heal your party for more health than most enemy parties do in an entire round of combat, so your other party members' actions are essentially playing with house money.  Just keep doing that until you eventually whittle down the enemy party or boss.  Victory!

There are a lot of good ways to make Healing into a strategic option instead of a brainless necessity, including high resource costs or mostly-conditional heals (such as a buff that will heal an ally whenever they score a Critical Hit).  One of my favorites is the rework of League of Legend's premier healer, Soraka (skip to "Champion Insights").  This is a multiplayer, real-time game, but even then, they recognized that safe, nearly infinite sustain is not a healthy thing for a healer to have.  In the rework, they changed her main healing spell to be usable only on other allies (not herself), and it costs a percentage of her maximum health to use it.  To restore her own health, she much use her Ultimate (put simply, ultimates are skills in LoL with high power and very long cooldowns - this could be simulated in a RPG Maker by sealing the skill for 10 or so turns once you've used it), or must spend time ("a turn") to attack enemies with Starcall (functionally similar a low-power HP drain spell).

She is absolutely peerless at healing teammates, but she's very vulnerable herself, and requires a bit of skill and strategy to provide high impact.  Your team isn't necessarily better nor worse for having her versus another (non-healer) type of character.  I think that's the kind of play pattern that designers should aspire to when designing healers in RPGs.

 

[Warpmind]

Another way to "deal with" healing - make the Healer a reasonably buff person; plenty of HP and such - but Healing spells increase the Healer's Target Rate by an amount proportional to the healing spell's power.

Make an Überheal, prepare for a beating unless the tank can aggravate the enemies even more...