In Defense of CETERPGs

TheoAllen

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So... Is the problem, in general, the name of or as I explained in the thread? I posted this thread on a different forum and there was not so much confusion.
You prefaced it with "In Defense of CETERPG", you're implying that "people need to accept this definition" and "you have to use this term in this thread". And because the definition was never been invented, people were confused, what exactly defines it? do I need to accept this term? Granted, even the term RPG has much interpretation, however, since the term is already well known, people don't argue what defines an RPG even though they may have a different interpretation. You know the rest, they don't seem to need a new definition. They ended up nitpicking it. Thus, the communication failed. If you just want to share your thought without making up a new definition, you could probably have a higher success rate.

Basically, every genre has bases in its structure. Turn battles, spells (or special abilities) and leveling up are the basis of a classic RPG. Undertale, is not a purely battle-based RPG, has no spells or any special abilities, and does not depend on leveling up for game progression. The breakdown of bases is what I call deconstruction, which is why games like Undertale are deconstruction of genre.
Ok, let's go by this definition. But I'm going to try to summarize so it is easier to read.

CETERPG is a kind of revival of RPG in its essence. At the time when we had great examples like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire and others, we had several types of limitations. CETERPG is a type of RPG that does not try to be something deconstructive, nor just more of the same. It is something that is different, but that preserves the essence of RPG.
"Here are the Traditional RPGs that follow the traditional RPG design. But it has a unique experience because the content is different".

First of all, I would like to clarify that I do not hate or think it is a bad game because it follows the current formula of Indies RPGs, but think it's somewhat bad how much they are dominating the Fanbase of current RPGs. What do I mean by current Indies RPGs? Examples that I would give of RPGs that are following the that formula (it doesn't have to be an Indie game) are Undertale, Hearthbound, Yume Nikki, Mogeko Castle, Omori and (perhaps) the Mario & Luigi series.
"Meanwhile, here is the list of RPG that deconstructing what traditional RPG does. No, I don't think they're a bad game, but the trend is, I think it's bad"

Returning to the subject, why is the popularity of this style a bad thing? When we have the popularization of a certain product on the market, the offer of that product will become more and more common, that is, it will be usual to see anyone producing, which will generate saturation.
"If this trend continues, the demand for this kind of trend keeps increasing"

This means that both the most talented producers and the least will produce. This means that, with the popularization of the current RPG style, both great games and bad games would be made. What's the problem? Taking into account that there are good and bad games of all topics and genres. The saturation of a style decreases the critical capacity of the one who loves it, so the individual will make less or no criticism. What happens when a game gets no critics? The creator's next games tend to be at the same level or worse than the previous one, with the aim of criticism is being to make the creator better.
"So why the trend is the issue? Of course, because the creator will try to satisfy the demand so that they might get less criticism because people demanded the creator to create the thing they like. And that is the problem because when the dev don't get critics, they can't get better".

In addition, with the extreme saturation of RPGs in the current molds and possible decay of the style, players who prefer classic JRPGs would deprive themselves of any current RPG and players who prefer the current style would not be able to play an oldschool JRPG because of the big difference gameplay, topics, among others.
"And if the trend continues, eventually they will stop enjoying traditional RPG all together"

Why would CETERPG be a good answer to this situation? CETERPG, in a super brief form, is a "halfway point" between the old JRPGs and the current RPGs. It, while not try to be a desconstruction of the genre like Undertale, does not limit itself to topics and ideas of JRPGs like the SNES games. But if CETERPGs became popular, wouldn't it end up like the example given before? No, because unlike the old JRPGs and deconstructed RPGs, CETERPGs have as one of the main characteristics the individualism of the creator.
"So, why would this be an answer? As long as the dev follows the traditional RPG design and put their characters in their game, it will not be a problem."

Even if someone makes a CETERPG and a fan of the game tries to base the style of their game entirely on it, the likelihood of becoming a "copy" is less, because a CETERPG is based on the creator's philosophies, views, and criticisms of the contemporary world, which is practically impossible to copy, taking into account that each human being thinks differently. As CETERPG is a "halfway point" between the old RPGs and the current ones, the chances of someone who prefers oldschool RPGs and someone who prefers current ones to like it are the same.
"Because the game contains the dev's characteristic, it is less likely to be copied. And by characteristic here I mean, the game content such as the dev point of views (and not mechanically)"

.... that how I interpret your whole thread. And honestly, I still don't get what you're trying to say
 

HumanNinjaToo

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@TheoAllen Assuming your interpretation is correct, I still don't get it either. Despite games being mentioned, I'm not seeing the correlation between them and the idea of a 'cete' rpg. If 'cete' rpg is just an rpg that is different than the norm, then I am wondering how possible that even is today. I give you a name of an rpg, you can probably give 5 more that are similar in how they play. I think "breaking from the norm" is not enough to go by when trying to define this term being used.
 

Countyoungblood

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You may misunderstand the point of a parable.
 

HumanNinjaToo

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I understand what a parable is... What's your point? How does that relate to this topic?
 

HexMozart88

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I am completely and utterly confused. Like, if someone gave me 3rd year university rocket science, I would understand it more than I understand this thread.
 

Kes

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@Irineu The purpose of posting a thread in this section is to begin a conversation. A conversation needs to follow at least some conventions of communication. It seems to me, after reading through this thread twice, that you have failed to communicate adequately the subject matter and purpose of the thread. I draw this conclusion from my own reaction and reading the number of people who have replied saying that they are confused about both those key aspects.

It might help if you answer the following questions as clearly and briefly as you can. I see that your first language is not English. It might help if you wrote your answer in your own language in a document and then used DeepL to translate it (much better than Google translations).

Can you define the subject in 2 or 3 sentences?
Why are you posting about this subject? i.e. what is the purpose of the thread?
What is important/interesting about it so that it should interest other people?
 

Irineu

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Why are you posting about this subject?
The topic, in short, was about a specific type of RPG and some of my observations about the RPG industry today. This type of RPG was difficult to define in words, so I created a term (CETERPG). In general, it was to show how, in my view, the saturation of RPGs in the current molds (deconstructed RPGs) can generate bad consequences and how CETERPGs would be a good reaction to these bad consequences. On the topic, I even wrote that I don't hate current RPGs.

What is important/interesting about it so that it should interest other people?
It is a forum about RPG Maker, so I figured that a topic about an RPG pattern (possible sub-genre) that few people talk about, a possible decadence (maybe even extinction) of the genre and how this kind of RPGs could be a "solution" would give a relevant subject.

I don't know if it was how I presented the topic or if it was because my English isn't the best, but I was honestly surprised that the topic confused so many people. I say this because I posted this same topic in another forum (a forum in Portuguese) and the readers understood it almost perfectly.
 

MushroomCake28

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@Irineu I think I kinda understand what you mean. However, I have to strongly oppose your views on the diagnosis of the current Trend. Who are we to decide what trend is good or bad. I'm an idea libertarian, and mostly a classical liberal (not in the political meaning of the word) in a sense that I believe that the free market of ideas is what determines what is a good or bad idea. If people like it, play it, spend money on it, it's going to continue. That's a good idea. If people don't like it, they won't play it, they won't spend money on it, it's going to die. That's a bad idea.

Since good and bad are mostly too subjective in a sense, the best indicator of "fitness" is the game's performance in the market. The market might make a mistake in the short term, but the beautiful of evolutionary systems (or even democratic systems in a sense) is that it tends to self correct in the long term.
 

HumanNinjaToo

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So my question is:what constitutes a "deconstructed" RPG? I'm not sure what you mean when you use that term.

Second question: what exactly does a "cete" RPG bring to the table that is missing from other RPG games? I'm still not clear on your explanation of what a "cete" rpg is. I know you mentioned earlier something about it being an rpg that brings in the creator's ideology to the game or something, but I'm not clear on what that means exactly. It seems to me every gamemaker brings something into the game that they enjoy, some type of worldview.

EDIT: @MushroomCake28 Based on what you just posted, I am assuming that the overall idea of this thread is that there is something wrong with the type of RPGs being produced. I think I'm with you on this one. The market speaks for itself. If nobody likes a game, eventually it stops selling and disappears. If everyone likes it, it's then copied (to some extent) and remade again and again.
 

Irineu

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I think I kinda understand what you mean. However, I have to strongly oppose your views on the diagnosis of the current Trend. Who are we to decide what trend is good or bad. I'm an idea libertarian, and mostly a classical liberal (not in the political meaning of the word) in a sense that I believe that the free market of ideas is what determines what is a good or bad idea. If people like it, play it, spend money on it, it's going to continue. That's a good idea. If people don't like it, they won't play it, they won't spend money on it, it's going to die. That's a bad idea.
One of the points of the topic is not to show that the trend of deconstructed RPGs is bad, but rather that showing this trend will possibly generate consequences that I particularly believe are bad for the RPG industry, i.e. whether these consequences that I have pointed out are good or bad, is a subjective issue, in my view its bad.

I'm also totally pro free market, competition and that sort of thing, but another point I addressed on the topic is that people's tastes and how successful a game is are not always related to the quality of the game. Earthbound, for example, is considered one of the best RPGs in history, but it didn't sell well at the time it was released.

A member of another forum called Alex Rockmaker, who is currently developing a game called Ekorella (which he considers a CETERPG), commented:
"Going to another genre, the indie terror. The concept of "3D models that are increasingly poorly made and full of jumpscars" is still VERY STRONG within the gamer community. When you take games that really had some effort from their creators [FNAF and Bendy] and compare with the equally famous and hyped but extremely low effort games like Bald's Basic and GRANNY, it's clear that what sold the low effort was more for following the concept in saturation than the quality of the game, both graphical and gameplay, that we convince... using jumpscare is a very cheap feature.

So in short: there are games that sell for concepts that are on the rise, and not necessarily for quality, starting the cycle of bad game until the extinction of the genre. It's not competition, it's commercial parasitism.
"

Besides that:
"I feel pressured to make Ekorella's second game with something "more" than the first, which those who know know know that works a lot with the standard gameplay logic of rpg maker vx ace. My focus always was the history and a very simple grind system, trying to handle the difficulty to not frustrate and everything else. But in the second it seems that I have to break this barrier, have something different to show in terms of gameplay. And I realize with this post that I feel pressured because this is the middle of indie RPG's nowadays. And I'm just an old school wanting to make a crazy story of plants fighting against weeds. In this I think I fit the game in CETERPG. Old mechanics, but with a footprint that tries to be more authorial in the way that leads the narrative".

So my question is:what constitutes a "deconstructed" RPG? I'm not sure what you mean when you use that term.
What I consider deconstructed RPGs are not necessarily a game that is an innovative premise, but an RPG that escapes from the basics that are essential to an RPG. Undertale is a deconstructed RPG, because it has an unnecessary character progression for the advancement of the game, absence of spells and MP bars and does not have a fully turn-based battle system. Going for a more radical approach, Yume Nikki is a deconstructed RPG, because it has no character progression, no battle system or even a storyline.

Second question: what exactly does a "cete" RPG bring to the table that is missing from other RPG games? I'm still not clear on your explanation of what a "cete" rpg is. I know you mentioned earlier something about it being an rpg that brings in the creator's ideology to the game or something, but I'm not clear on what that means exactly. It seems to me every gamemaker brings something into the game that they enjoy, some type of worldview.
CETERPG would be a classic JRPG if we did not have the limitations of the time, and when I say limitations I am not referring exclusively to the technological part, with the addition of the ideological, philosophical or personal point of view of the creator. The Bioshock series, although not an RPG, is based on an ideological proposal known as Objectivism. Imagine a game with the same premise as Bioshock, but with the gameplay of Dragon Quest. That would be an example of CETERPG.
 

slimmmeiske2

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Going for a more radical approach, Yume Nikki is a deconstructed RPG, because it has no character progression, no battle system or even a storyline.
Yume Nikki isn't a RPG, it's more of a Adventure/Horror game like Ib. Just because something was made in RPG Maker doesn't mean it's automatically a RPG.

I'm still 100% sure what you mean with the ideology aspect of CETERPG.
 

Andar

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is a kind of revival of RPG in its essence.
and what is that essence in your opinion?

you never really defined your term - and a google-search found absolutely no answer to that term (the very first found link from google goes here and after that is only a mix of topics that go everywhere else but no definition.

Please give a description of more than one typical game and why you make that classification - without using terms that are undefined in a google-search. And if this is due to a language filter (that the term is only used in your language) then translate an official definition of it to english
 

HumanNinjaToo

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What I consider deconstructed RPGs are not necessarily a game that is an innovative premise, but an RPG that escapes from the basics that are essential to an RPG. Undertale is a deconstructed RPG, because it has an unnecessary character progression for the advancement of the game, absence of spells and MP bars and does not have a fully turn-based battle system. Going for a more radical approach, Yume Nikki is a deconstructed RPG, because it has no character progression, no battle system or even a storyline.
I'm having a hard time getting behind your definition of a deconstructed RPG. When I think deconstructed, I think that the subject has been taken out of its original form and that presented in a different form, but all the parts are still there. So if you're talking about RPGs simply not having certain features that were present in other RPGs of the same time, I don't know that I would classify it the way you are in this thread. From the two examples you mentioned that I quoted, it sounds like they are maybe borderline bad representatives of the RPG genre. There's always room for innovation, of course. But sometimes people innovate so far out of the box, it becomes something else entirely; and that is not necessarily a good thing.

CETERPG would be a classic JRPG if we did not have the limitations of the time, and when I say limitations I am not referring exclusively to the technological part, with the addition of the ideological, philosophical or personal point of view of the creator. The Bioshock series, although not an RPG, is based on an ideological proposal known as Objectivism. Imagine a game with the same premise as Bioshock, but with the gameplay of Dragon Quest. That would be an example of CETERPG.
I think I disagree with the premise of what you are labeling CETERPG. If you are saying that people were somehow limited ideologically and philosophically when it comes to game creation, then I am saying that makes no sense. People have been having philosophical and ideological debates for literally thousands of years. I fail to see how people were somehow limited in representing their ideals and viewpoints in the 1980s. If anything, video games were a whole new way of expressing oneself, an entirely new medium was being developed then. I will admit that not every game produced has been a ground-shaking wake-up call in terms of some philosophical perspective, but not every game has attempted to do such a thing either. I think if you're going back to the '80s and not finding these philosophical undertones that you're looking for, it is not because the developers were unable to inject that into their game; I'd say it's either because they chose not to, or because you are unable to see it.
 

MushroomCake28

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What I consider deconstructed RPGs are not necessarily a game that is an innovative premise, but an RPG that escapes from the basics that are essential to an RPG. Undertale is a deconstructed RPG, because it has an unnecessary character progression for the advancement of the game, absence of spells and MP bars and does not have a fully turn-based battle system. Going for a more radical approach, Yume Nikki is a deconstructed RPG, because it has no character progression, no battle system or even a storyline.
After a certain point if you remove too many elements it's not an RPG. There's a difference between an innovative RPG and a game that isn't a RPG.

A member of another forum called Alex Rockmaker, who is currently developing a game called Ekorella (which he considers a CETERPG), commented:
Stuff
You guys are missing the point of marketing. Making a good game will never make it sell, because people don't know about it. Marketing is what sells a game 90% of the time, not innovation or the essence of the game. Especially in today's world, with the saturated video game industry it's becoming harder and harder to simply make people aware of your game. You can't attack games that are not so high quality but have extremely good marketing. That just shows a game studio that have evolve and adapted better to the current market and trends.

If your goal is to measure the quality of a game intrinsically, then you shouldn't compare that to the sales and conclude that it's unfair. The intrinsic quality of a game isn't very correlated with how well it sales; it's mostly the marketing that makes it sell. If I had a formula, it would be something like this:
Sale Performace = Marketing * 0.9 + Intrinsic Value * 0.1
 

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