In Game Map/HUD Building

[RetroBoy]

Description of the Feature:

I wish I had screenshots but I am pretty sure the Powers That Be will know what I mean. So let me elaborate. I have seen plugins that allow you to build maps in game with full freedom. You want a scarecrow between two squares, just click and there he is. Voilla!

Likewise, SomeRandomDude (I think that was his name) has a YouTube video where he does the same with a HUD system.

I feel these should be a standard feature. The ability to place objects freely like that (in the mapping program) should be a standard feature of the builder. It is much more intuitive and easy to use.

Likewise, the HUD is a complete mystery to most newbies. Even me who has been at this for over a decade still feels a bit shaky with my HUD-Fu and I prefer to hire others to do it for me. So, the ability to make your own battle HUD and everything within the builder itself is essential..

Code for Implementation:
I have seen plugins around that do it (again I think some randomdude has something and so does Yanfly, I think) but I don't have them on hand.

Mockups:
No visuals on hand.

Why is this feature good?
The purpose of RPG MAKER should be to allow me to reach into my head and put whatever is there onto the screen. It should be simple enough for a child to use but complex enough for an adult to build kickass games. Right now people use unity and other such programs in their game development -- but if RPG MAKER MV allows for simplier and more intuitive map and HUD building more people will be inclinded to use it.

Possible issues with this feature?
I am unsure about the technical side of things but I am sure there will be a flood of lower quality garbage as more 7 year-olds chase their dreams of making games.

 

[TomatoKing]

I think a "good" tutorial on how to customize the different in-game menus would be enough for this, right now the problem is you need to know where to look for the thing you want to replace first, then how RM handles stuff, then how to make it look like you want.

A good tutorial could go on to how to customize each of the standard menus, how to create a custom one and how to add it to either an existing one or calling it via an event.

Lack of in-depth learning resources is one of the many things holding RM back, "learn JS" shouldn't be a stock answer for everything, just like "like C#" is not a stock answer over the Unity forums.

 

[RetroBoy]

A good tutorial could go on to how to customize each of the standard menus, how to create a custom one and how to add it to either an existing one or calling it via an event.

I know it is probably considered lazy but whenever I have to dig through directories on my computer I feel like it is a failure of the editor. I "feel" like I should be able to do everything I need to do (other than creating art assets) from in-editor functions. If you need a tutorial that sounds like something is difficult enough to merit needing to learn it and everything should be intuitive.

Since the "technology" exists to randomly place things where ever you want with a click (we've seen it) anyone should be able to do that in the builder, that is my logic for it anyway. Is there any reason we are limited in the way we are when a method for us to circumvent those limits exist?

Why should I need to dig through code files and make tiny mathematics adjustments, pixel by pixel, when I could just click on something on the screen and drag it one or two pixels to the left or right, ya know?

Whereas its entirely possible to learn how to do it another way, if MV doesnt do it, another game making software will and future buyers are going to do with the easier to use and more flexible program, ya know?

 

[Archeia]

SumRndmDude has a HUD Plugin maker, that is not the standard menus. RPG Maker doesn't even have HUD features so this suggestion is odd. It's a DQ/FF-esque engine.

While I agree to some extent the standard menus should be customizable, I think the problem comes more from the additional features the community wants to add. If you want to distribute for example a crafting menu, how would a GUI editor handle that?

The programmer would have to go with additional steps to make sure that you can customize it too. And not everyone is willing to go through that. If people are already expecting generator parts from DLC packs or artists (irregardless of how unreasonable it is as good art is not generic or some cannot even be generator-ized at all), how much so from programmers with "it must work with the default GUI editor." Let's also think about compatibility and how annoying that could be too.

The point of RM is that a child can use it, yes, but it's also for a developer who knows what to do. I agree more with @TomatoKing that having a tutorial on how to modify the menus would be more beneficial to the end user as a whole. The teach a man how to fish, they can feed themselves analogy.

 

[RetroBoy]

The point of RM is that a child can use it, yes, but it's also for a developer who knows what to do. I agree more with @TomatoKing that having a tutorial on how to modify the menus would be more beneficial to the end user as a whole. The teach a man how to fish, they can feed themselves analogy.

I think that if the software isnt easier to use and you can only edit your UI from outside the editor then you're going to lose customers to other game building engines where you again (I know of two on Steam). Truthfully, the only reason I am still using MV is because I already owned it and I've been using RPG Maker since like 2003 or something.

When it comes down to it, you should just be able to drag and drop, and click and add or remove things on your UI and then lock them in place.

Of course, not many people might agree. You might want to keep it all done outside the editor but I just "feel" like when you buy a game maker you expect to be able to make that game look the way you like. Its one thing not know to make a plugin to do something you want, most people will understand that. However, having to learn to script to be able to move windows boxes around or make your combat UI look the way you like seems almost as important of a feature as being able to manipulate message boxes.

Maybe not five or so years ago but now that there are other programs that have the feature built-in, I "feel" like it should be standard.

I apologize if I used the wrong terminology.

 

[Archeia]

Not exactly. Compare the community of RPG Maker to other game engines and then compare the amount of free resources and contribution that RM Community has over other engines. I have looked far and wide for an RPG Engine myself and I can tell you off the bat that RM has no competition in terms of RPG engines that is like it. The strength of RM is how tightly knit it is (for better or for worse) and the community spirit.

Since you're not familiar with programming, "dragging and dropping" is not as easy as it looks or sounds from a technical standpoint. It will catch an onslaught of issues from the backend especially if you're a person that is still learning how to program. While RPG Maker is aimed for hobbyists, it needs to cater to all skill levels and the "community" spirit.

I agree that there should be customization. I just think it can be done in another way than affecting the standard menus.

 

[RetroBoy]

Not exactly. Compare the community of RPG Maker to other game engines and then compare the amount of free resources and contribution that RM Community has over other engines. I have looked far and wide for an RPG Engine myself and I can tell you off the bat that RM has no competition in terms of RPG engines that is like it. The strength of RM is how tightly knit it is (for better or for worse) and the community spirit.

Since you're not familiar with programming, "dragging and dropping" is not as easy as it looks or sounds from a technical standpoint. It will catch an onslaught of issues from the backend especially if you're a person that is still learning how to program. While RPG Maker is aimed for hobbyists, it needs to cater to all skill levels and the "community" spirit.

I agree that there should be customization. I just think it can be done in another way than affecting the standard menus.

And you're probably right but you're thinking of things from the point of view of a developer and a programmer. Try looking at it from the point of view of a new buyer. Not being nasty here, just being honest. The video game development course here in Australia (at the TAFE) only uses Unity. I know because my mates are doing it and they were not allowed to use RPG Maker MV (since I suggested it).

So, straight off the bat we know that "Unity" is the "industry standard" for Indy-Development. Most people know of it, plus its free, and flexible (or so I've been told). More importantly, a bunch of games have been made on it whereas most of the stuff you hear coming out of RPG MAKER MV community are light novels and hentai games.

Now, I know that not everyone in the community are working on those types of games and lots of folks are pretty cool and helpful (I even made a wall post about it before you made the initial post) but as a new buyer who knows none of that, I look at the two word of mouth reputations, then some reviews (usually start with the negative ones) and then I look at the trailer and what each engine can do. And during those trailers I am looking for features and what are going to be easiest for me to do.

So, you're the fourth highest game development program on Stream, two of them are significantly cheaper (big disadvantage) and as a consumer you're going to be looking for what you can do with it. At the point of purchase most people are not thinking "What will the community be like?" or "Maybe I will go and lurk in the community and see if I like folks?" you're there looking for a tool.

Since you guys can't control what games people make using RPG MAKER or who buys them, you need to focus on features.

Now, as you know, I am no programmer so I don't know how difficult it is. All I know is that I have seen it and I want it and so will (I think?) anyone else who has seen it.

MV is certainly leagues above Ace and I am not being contrary to be a dickhead or anything. I am just trying to be helpful and bring up things I think will improve the engine and the overall appeal of the engine. But hey, I am no game dev I could be completely wrong, ya know?

 

[Archeia]

Hey man, if somehow my wording has sound "offended", it's the most neutral tone I can have and there is no emotions attached. This isn't just about the sales or consumers. But I'm thinking about as a user. Not as a "programmer" or "official RPG Maker representative" because that's how you're sounding to me.

1. If I create x and y resources how will this affect me personally as a user?
2. Will this affect how people will create resources for RPG Maker?
3. Will this affect how features that RPG Maker doesn't have inherently?
4. Will I still be able to create an RPG where RPG Maker lacks those sort of features.

Your section about the negatives is really sparse, so I'm filling that in. A solution cannot be found if there is no discussion.

 

[RetroBoy]

Oh yeah for sure. I am always worried to bring up criticism online because people typically get really offended. You haven't offended me at all, if that is how I came off I am sorry. It certainly was not how I intended to sound.

"If I create x and y resources how will this affect me personally as a user?"

I am not sure what you mean here.

"Will this affect how people will create resources for RPG Maker?"

I imagine that people already in the community that make money by Freelancing will suffer a blow. There will probably be less work from newer members but it won't dry up entirely. There will certainly be a need for a higher or less uniform standard if that is built into the engine already -- but we could have said the exact same thing about the addition of Character Generator, ya know?

"Will this affect how features that RPG Maker doesn't have inherently?"

Good question. I cant answer this but it merits being explored.

"Will I still be able to create an RPG where RPG Maker lacks those sort of features."

I imagine yes. Since what I am suggesting is the ability to manipulate pre-existing assets within the Editor. The ability to pick and choose your health bars and choose the specific placement of things within the UI.

 

[Archeia]

This is what I mean.

#1 This is asking yourself as a content creator. If you were programming, how will it affect you personally from distributing your own resources?

#2 Is easily answered. Character Generator is a visual resource that cannot move by its own. Plugins work differently on the other hand and would be heavily affected. (I am talking about the current state of MV as it is). There is a difference between tailoring clothes and changing the human mind (in this case, the engine's functions).

#3 and #4 are connected and both will get affected. Again my example, if I use a crafting plugin, will people start expecting me to create a plugin that will be compatible with this version?

Right now, this suggestion is hard to integrate to RPG Maker MV because it's been 1.5 years. Ideally what would happen is:

1.) All of the standard menus will be laid out in JSON format. All the coordinates, size, width, height (basically super attributes or whatever) will be Variable-based.

2.) All plugins will then follow the JSON format so it's easier to customize them.

3.) Then the visual editor would just be modifying all these constant variables.

As you can see, If we integrate this now, preexisting plugins will possibly override the JSON settings or could cause unforeseen issues. So not only do you have to convince kadokawa that this is a good idea, but everyone has to be on board for this sudden change and possibly redo their plugins. Can you imagine people like Yanfly being willing to rewrite some parts of their plugins when their library could be around 50~130+?

 

[RetroBoy]

That makes sense (I think). I suppose its just difficult to understand "why" any of what I'd suggested would impact anything else to the degree implied. If the location is changed manually outside the builder by say typing in a different number to repossession the sprite or menu location on the screen, why is the ability to alter that data from within the engine through a simple drag and drop function going to effect it?

After all, if all the "drag and drop" is changing is the position of the box, the size of a box, etc, why is that running the risk of Disrupting pre-existing plugins?

Right now I could go and change some numbers around and things might look wonky, but they would still work just fine?

 

[Archeia]

This is super simplified. But some people might write their plugins like this:

MenuWidth(45)

Then the default script would look like this MenuWidth(VariableMW)

So if you use a plugin that has MenuWidth(45) it will ignore MenuWidth(VariableMW). Now take into consideration plugins that heavily customize the following menus, I'm using Yanfly as an example:

• Item Core
• Equipment Core
• Battle Status

You cannot achieve some of these new functions with just the drag and drop editor. And Yanfly changes the Battle Status so heavily he even added facesets. This isn't even covering possible animated menus. I'm not saying his script is hard to modify, but you should see where the problems would start trickling in.

 

[Soulnet]

Maybe we need two versions of RPG Maker? Sort of like notepad (easy enough for a child and cheap) vs word (basically fully customisable and a cost that reflects that). Trying to be both at the same time is where the software hurts itself.

 

[RetroBoy]

Maybe we need two versions of RPG Maker? Sort of like notepad (easy enough for a child and cheap) vs word (basically fully customisable and a cost that reflects that). Trying to be both at the same time is where the software hurts itself.

I've always kind of been of the mind "If pro-programmers wanted to make a game they wouldn't need Game Making Software" and maybe its because I don't know jack about the details. But I look back on all the old SNES stuff I grew up with and I don't think any of them were made using an editor. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) they were built from the ground up -- and aren't most "pro" games built from the ground up these days too?

I think you merit a point but its a complicated place to be. I really feel like RPG MAKER is still missing a lot of basic features which it needs (like the Yanfly Message Core should just come built into it in my opinion) but a "kiddy version" is going to be even ****tier than we currently have even if it is more user friendly, right?

 

[Soulnet]

What you say is half true. Just because i'm a programmer doesn't mean I have to make life harder for myself. Just as a carpenter uses wood, doesn't mean he has to go and chop down the tree himself. See what I mean?

With regards to the kiddy version and full, it's more about how much time the developer wants to spend on the product. If the cheaper version is cheaper, it has to cut costs somewhere (so features are limited). Vice versa if you want full features then the price needs to reflect it. Both will make you a game. What the end product is can depend on the features right? As another crude example the cheap version may have the mapping ability like now, the more expensive version has doodads. "****tier" as you point out will depend on the person and what they are after.

My comment comes from RPG Makers point of view, not of what I'm thinking for me.

 

[RetroBoy]

What you say is half true. Just because i'm a programmer doesn't mean I have to make life harder for myself. Just as a carpenter uses wood, doesn't mean he has to go and chop down the tree himself. See what I mean?

With regards to the kiddy version and full, it's more about how much time the developer wants to spend on the product. If the cheaper version is cheaper, it has to cut costs somewhere (so features are limited). Vice versa if you want full features then the price needs to reflect it. Both will make you a game. What the end product is can depend on the features right? As another crude example the cheap version may have the mapping ability like now, the more expensive version has doodads. "****tier" as you point out will depend on the person and what they are after.

My comment comes from RPG Makers point of view, not of what I'm thinking for me.

Very insightful, that makes sense to me.

 

[nio kasgami]

As a user, artist and a programmer who dev a actual menu engine for mv who do what you expect the answer to that : not gonna happen

Why?

Simply because in term of coding its a mess MORE you add customization, more its will become a hard to edit, to understand and not worth the shot

Obviously lets not forget the risk of bug and break the editor more easily because of a bad manipulation or the lacks of scenario the user can come with this kind of features. Lets not forget : if we add this the user will ger greedy and ask for even more options

Plus menu coding is one of the simpliest thing you learn when beginning its not hard to do that just take a tutorial do some edit and poof a nice menu can be done

I will be bluntly honest : mv was designed to be simple and i think its already enough simple in both term of programming and use and honestly if the person is not able to just put the effort to learn a little basic of programming and want that the gamedev is gave in a silver spoon then this person shouldnt game dev

 

[RetroBoy]

I am not interested in learning how to program. I have written (no exaggeration) more than 60 game systems. The project I am working on is coming along very nicely. But I havent written a single line of code for it. Just hired freelancers and gave them systems and mechanics to replicate. This is because I do not have the time to invest in learning Javascript or the desire and because even though I can do crude pixel art I want my game to look good.

Does that mean I shouldn't be able to make a game or I shouldn't be making a game?

I would rather focus on world building and dialog. Does that mean I shouldnt be allowed to make games or I shouldnt be, is that what you're saying or have I misunderstood?

 

[nio kasgami]

And this here i misunderstood, I didnt said that you have to become a master of programming or to dedicate yourself to programming if this like art you either like it or you askl peoples to do it for you its fine

Its although a must in game dev to understand the logic of programming even if its not interesting. Eventing is literrally a sinplified form of programming
And i saw peoples able to do excellent game just with event.

My point is a gui editor will only provoke more trouble than its worth it, plus being restrictive and limited (i can assure you any gui editor ilif you cant extend it...its will get generic and boring)

Plus the fact you are not a programmer make it hard for u to understand the point of the programmers

Place yourself at the place of the said programmer you hire imagine how much trouble they will have to deal with a new mv. Infrastructure because yes your idea include to totally recreate the rpg maker game coding for add what...some generic hui editor?
Plus the gui editor will not being extendable so if you have a missing features then you will have to go through harcoded js files for add a little options that you will have to use in a plugin

Plus coding a stable gui editor in c++ is not a light task will ask time and put non necessary strain on the editor.

Plus the peoples who will code that (degica) will probably have to do that for free

So sorry but eh...adding a sh*ton of works and transforming to the already messy game library...for a a nob extendable gui editor who will probably just give few customization options?

Not worth it.