In making a fast-paced turn-based battle system

[kerbonklin]

This has been a general game design topic in the past in other forums/media, back when RPG games were more abundant with consoles and such. Normally the two terms "fast-paced" and "turn-based" are opposites, where fast-paced would relate to more action-oriented RPGs (non-turn-based, usually anything that involves actively moving your character around in battle to dodge attacks or position yourself) and turn-based would usually relate to taking your time to take strategic actions or to make the best possible move in your situation in chess fashion.

Slowly integrating these two elements is quite difficult, so how would you plan on doing it? So far the popular suggestions from other past forums on the topic have been these three points, but more would be better.

• Timed turns to put pressure on the player to make an illusion of "fast-paced"
• Quick, short and fluid battle animations, without the use of a combat log. As soon as you see the damage popup of your player/enemies' attack, the next actor/enemy is already starting to perform their action.
• Action Commands on player attacks/skills to enhance them and keep player focus.

 

[Milennin]

-Short battle animations is probably the most important one. The default RPG Maker animations take up too much time. I think there is a script that doubles the speed of battle animations.


-Enemies that aren't huge HP bags. Enemies should go down in a couple of turns at most, with bosses probably not taking longer than 5-10 minutes.


-A small list of skills. Less skills means less scrolling through the skill list and also less choices to be made that would slow down the pace. That also means avoiding situational skills that are only effective against specific type of enemies.


-A small list of possible items to use in combat. Don't make a thousand different potions that heal different amounts of HP/MP. More scrolling through menus = breaking pace.


-Automatic mana regen. Reduce the need for constant use of potions (slows down the pace by having to go to the item menu and spending a turn) and allows the player to use skills more often to get battles done quickly.


-All characters must be able to do decent damage. Don't have a healer character who is only useful for support. Give him options to do damage to enemies as well.

 

[Sixth]

Fast paced is not equal fast forward battles...

Fast paced means that the player needs to do some things in the battle quickly, and not just watch a quick animation, kill the enemy within 2 turns and be done with it.

You can pause the battle at skill/item selection and still end up with a fast paced battle if you do it right.

Make timed attacks, skills, etc. Meaning the player needs to press some buttons at the right times to succeed with something in the battle.

That is the best way to keep the player focused during the whole battle.

Simple turn based battles are boring in this age and era, in my opinion.

And making it like a fast forwarded turn based battle will not help it at all.

 

[Milennin]

Fast paced is not equal fast forward battles...


Fast paced means that the player needs to do some things in the battle quickly, and not just watch a quick animation, kill the enemy within 2 turns and be done with it.


You can pause the battle at skill/item selection and still end up with a fast paced battle if you do it right.


Make timed attacks, skills, etc. Meaning the player needs to press some buttons at the right times to succeed with something in the battle.


That is the best way to keep the player focused during the whole battle.


Simple turn based battles are boring in this age and era, in my opinion.


And making it like a fast forwarded turn based battle will not help it at all.

Don't agree. Just because the player needs to do something quickly in a battle doesn't make it fast paced. I remember a DBZ game with a turn-based battle system that required you to quickly input keys in order to attack and those battles still felt slow (it was an awesome game, though... just not what I'd call fast paced).


And just because battles are over more quickly than in an average game doesn't mean there isn't more to them than regular turn-based, but "fast forward" as you put it. A fast paced turn-based combat system needs to give the player a limited amount of choices per turn, but every choice must be meaningful and in a way work towards ending the battle sooner. It needs to make the player feel like they're speeding up the battle with their choice of skills, and if they choose poorly they'll suffer for it by spending more time on a battle.


Example: auto-attacking is the easy way out, but may take a few turns longer to kill enemies and cause the party to lose more HP. Instead the player could choose to either use their low damage skill that also regains their MP, then use a powerful skill to finish it off next turn, or use two characters for two medium power skills to finish off the enemy this turn at the cost of having less MP left. Or use one character to buff the attack of their allies, then finish it off by auto-attacking which should be a lot more effective with the attack buff on.


The reason why turn-based battles are boring is because all people do is copy the RTP or whatever Final Fantasy game they're used to and call it a day. People don't bother putting any thought and effort into their turn-based battles. I test quite a lot of games made on here, and unfortunately almost every game suffers from a poor and boring combat system that people take straight out of the RTP or something worse.

 

[Wavelength]

I agree with a majority (though certainly not all) of what's been mentioned in the topic so far.  Among a few suggestions I'd make to make battles feel (and actually be) fast-paced:

• Eliminate unnecessary menu navigation.  For example, get rid of the Fight/Escape party command phase and add "Escape" as an Actor Command.  Add Hotkeys for common actions such as "Attack" so you can choose them with a single button press, and/or allow Hotkey setup so the player can assign keys to their 3 or 4 favorite skills.  Provide ways to organize long lists (like the player's Inventory of items).
• Use clear pictures/icons instead of text whenever possible.  This is mostly only a "feel" thing, but it will make your battle feel faster, and if you do a good job, your player will actually recognize the actions he wants to take quicker, thus speeding up the total battle time.
• Err toward higher damage and lower HP.  Battle balance is very contextual based on your game, but in general you can achieve quicker (and much more exciting) battles by leaning toward relatively high damage and low HP for both characters and enemies.
• Keep battle animations short.  No one wants to sit through the same 6-second animation on the hundredth time that they use a summon.  So keep them short, and if possible, give the player an easy way to speed them up or skip them.
• Don't create resource crunches.  There are certain games (dungeon-crawlers in particular) that need the Resource Crunch to be effective, but if we're just looking to create fast-paced battles, characters that use non-renewable resources (like traditional MP/Mana) to unleash their mid-damage actions (like a mage's standard spells) should have access to copious amounts of that resource, so the player isn't discouraged from freely using those spells.  More often, it's good design to give casters a resource that renews during battle (or at least after each battle) that they can use to load big damage onto enemies.
• Add a "Rush" mode.  "Rush" modes usually just automatically give the "Attack" command to each character, but there are ways to make a more tactical Rush mode as well.  This mode is good if your game has the potential to swamp the enemy with easy battles (such as a traditional RPG that has backtracking and random battles).

I think that actually putting time limits on the player's turn (or using an ATB that makes battle march on as the player decides what to do) only work well in some games (ones where the battle system is supposed to be challenging and strategic will just become frustrating if you use this), and "timed hits" are a very like-it-or-hate-it thing.  Most players will enjoy this kind of element occasionally (for example, when you launch a Limit Break attack), but some will find it extremely annoying when they need to input a quick sequence of buttons for nearly every action they take.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Simple turn based battles are boring in this age and era, in my opinion

That depends on the player... There are also people that don't like fast-paced ones... And I've also encountered people who don't like those which tried to combine turn-based and fast-paced action oriented systems..

Anyway, most people will probably start with using an ATB with no waits...

 

[TheoAllen]

Am I the only one here who only think that "fast paced" is a term where the enemy could damage you more?

I mean, you could get damaged over 25% of you HP. You can be killed in less than 4 attack.

Of course, simpler / faster animation, simpler navigation, etc are still counts

But the point is not always making the battle so fast that you could win in less than 3 turn.

 

[Eschaton]

In addition to what's been said, here are my suggestions as well

*  A small pool of skills with expanded utility.  For example, the player must always know that the fire spell not only does fire damage, but also does damage over time, lowers physical defense, and may induce panic on certain targets.

*  There must be an incentive for keeping the combat quick.  While the easiest incentive would be the fact that fast battles = success, you could also add a ranking system, or design your combat around stun-locking enemies (as I am). 

*  Condensing your commands.  Instead of an "Item" command that opens a list of consumables, you should have a command that merely uses what the game deems the most useful and/or necessary item.  Some people might claim this dumbs the game down, but these guys probably want slower combat, too.  In addition, maybe your commands would have different effects under different circumstances instead of having to worry about a list or spreadsheet of skills.

*  Directly listing skills.  Goes with minimizing menu navigation.  Skills should simply be highlight and select.  Even better if they could be mapped to keys.

 

[kerbonklin]

Great ideas coming out so far, really loving them as I consider things to go into my own battle system. (Which is guess what - fast paced turn based)