Influencing a Party member's Starting Stats?

[Sel Feena]

Hi all, I hope this is in the right forum, and that I manage to explain myself properly. 

So I am ironing out the details for my game, and have thought about how to introduce the first party member that the main character, Iris, will meet - a childhood friend of hers, Rhenna, a witch. Now, what I thought would be interesting would be having Iris flash back to 'remembering' her time with her childhood pal.

I'm thinking of a sequence of around 5-6 'scenes' which would be single screens (using Tsukihime's Camera Control) and can be approached as a multiple choice test of sorts, with various actions that would decide Rhenna's starting stats, or even skill tree. However, the repurcussions of the actions wouldn't be known to the player at the time.

So for example, one 'scene' would be Iris and Rhenna hanging out by a pool, with Rhenna leaning over the water's edge looking at a frog and commenting 'how cute it looks'. Possible actions could be:

1. Push Rhenna in and start laughing (affinity down, stamina up for having to swim)
2. Picking up a rock and throwing it at the frog. Rhenna screams at you, saying 'it hurts' (affinity down, chance Rhenna can use Beast Magic skills up)
3. Agreeing with Rhenna (affinity up, chance Rhenna has a frog familiar up a lot)
4. Leave, saying 'Frogs are boring' (affinity down a lot, with another scene flashing up showing how Rhenna got lost and her parents had to find her, but also a significant increase in max HP

My only worry with this is that as the stat/class result of choices aren't signposted (most people should be able to guess what would lower or raise affinity), players might think it's all a little random. Although, I'm not aiming to have Rhenna end up vastly different, just the possibility of perhaps some extra skills if she's 'nudged' in the right direction consistently.

 

[Tsaiuki North]

Well, changing things like Learning skills, and MaxHP, is easy just using "Change Parameters..." and "Change Skills..." in the event page.

As for the "chance of" thing, I don't know. Stamina? Affinity? Are those added mechanics in your game? If you can describe how that works better, I can try to figure it out.

 

[Sel Feena]

Thanks for the reply. By affinity, I plan to keep a variable tracking how much each party member likes Iris; if it's high enough extra skills can be unlocked.

What I'm worried about is if this is something you'd like as a player? To be able to go through these small flashback sequences and at the end come out with a slightly different version of a character each time?

 

[Tsaiuki North]

Ooooh. so it's not really about "How" to do it. It's more so "would this be likable"

And I personally think so.

I'm using a reputation/ standings system with the world and characters in my game. Based on choices and actions you take, changes how the other characters view you, and can cause certain things to happen, like events, and bonuses such as skills, parameters, etc.

I like it personally.

(And yay! Forum Level up!)

 

[servantb7]

Very cool idea. If it's something you will use throughout your game, I'd encourage you to let the player know that their choices in these flashbacks will affect their characters stats. You could do this by having a brief pop-up after the cutscene (Rhenna gains +1 Beast Skills! etc.). Or, if that seems too heavy-handed, you could think of another way to let the player know.

For me, this would give the game a lot more replay value and make me enjoy the cutscenes if I know the choices I make in them will affect my character.

 

[Tsaiuki North]

Very cool idea. If it's something you will use throughout your game, I'd encourage you to let the player know that their choices in these flashbacks will affect their characters stats. You could do this by having a brief pop-up after the cutscene (Rhenna gains +1 Beast Skills! etc.). Or, if that seems too heavy-handed, you could think of another way to let the player know.

For me, this would give the game a lot more replay value and make me enjoy the cutscenes if I know the choices I make in them will affect my character.

Doing this, people will just make choices based on what stats/bonuses they want, rather than the actual choice itself, is the problem. I think the idea of a system like this is to attach the characters better to the game, which doing this above, would be counter-productive in that sense. "I'm going to push her into the pool just because I want this stat". Then later another event,  "Now that someone else is going to push her into the pool, ill stop them saying it's not funny, because I want this stat"

Actually from what I just said above "The idea of this system" is actually personal view...

 

[Sel Feena]

Yeah, that's a worry if I signpost things, I want players to make their choices without trying to metagame and say 'I'll do this because I want her to have that stat increased'.

 

[Kes]

But unless the player knows that their choices have implications you may as well not have them.  If I go through the game without being told that my character has a frog familiar because of what I did back at the pool, I will just assume that I got a frog familiar because that's what happens in this game.  Unless it becomes obvious to me, I will have no incentive to replay the game making different choices.  I accept that it's a difficult balance to strike, but to eliminate any indication because of fear of players trying to metagame seems to me to render the device a bit pointless.

 

[Sel Feena]

Yeah, that's true as well! I guess the best way to do that is in some dialogue after the 'flashback' sequence ends and Iris greets Rhenna. "You've still got a thing for frogs, I see!" What I really need to do is work on a balance so that it's clearly in the initial playthrough what choices had what effects on stats/class, and that'll hopefully be enough to make players wonder what would have happened if they'd chosen something else.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

If players know their choices have impacts, and if they get to know what each choice does, then they can now just pick whatever choice leads to their build of choice


If a player doesn't know their choices have impacts, then it's as ksjp said

 

[Tai_MT]

I've seen this system you're talking about!  It's in Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas!

Here's the rub with said system:  What is the optimal build for the character you are intending to mess with?  If said character is a natural Fighter Class and all your choices give that character mage stats...  You're gonna have some issues.  If these stats also change the class and skillset of the character to reflect the changes, then you have to worry about having "duplicate classes" in your game which also brings up the potential for not having proper Party Coverage later because you don't have a character to take on a certain role.

Here's what's wrong with the system mechanically:  If the player knows what is going on, they will for certain Meta-game it or savescum it to get what they want.  If they don't know what's going on, then the whole thing may as well not exist.  The reason these two problems exist is precisely because you are choosing a party member who is not a stand-in for you.  On a first playthrough, the player could actually end up handicapping themselves pretty badly depending on the stat spread and all the things you're trying to change here.  On top of that, if they get a character that just doesn't seem that useful, they aren't going to carry them along regardless of how interesting they are as characters.

Here's my personal opinion:  I don't actually think you've fleshed out this "feature" enough.  If you insist on using this feature once, I would insist on using it for every character who is going to be a party member.  I would not use it to choose a class either, I'd use it to assign a "specialty" to characters.  Let's say your second character is a mage.  You could have maybe elemental mage, force mage, and dark arts mage.  Have your choices pick one of the subclasses and then assign stats to make that subclass useful.  In this way, you would prevent "too much overlap" between character classes as well as "bad stats for class".  I also don't think I'd stop there with those events.  If you were going to use it, I'd suggest going all out with it.  Otherwise, why use it?  Maybe every so often you could pick up abilities from other classes through more memories or scenes?  Maybe pick up a few more points of stats because of what the player chose?  I'd likely try to make it a feature that pops up from time to time so that the player can make some tweaks and adjustments if they think they need them.  I wouldn't just plan out a single instance of something you wanted to do with the game.  If you do that, then the players will wonder why it exists at all or even quickly forget it.  Make it a part of your game, just like any other part of your game should be.  It doesn't have to be as frequent as every single level up...  But, maybe you could have five or six more of these things for each character down the line as you explore their storylines?  A few opportunities to tweak characters and grow them stat-wise might be interesting if done well.

That's just my two cents.  Maybe you've got a better idea?  I just suggest not letting the feature die at a single iteration.  I suggest that if you're going to do it at all, you go all out.

 

[Sel Feena]

Thanks for the response, Tai_MT. With the Rhenna example, she is always going to be a Witch (Magical offense) but the options are there to open up possibly some additional skills on top of her base set. Getting the frog familiar for example would unlock some weak water healing spells.

I was planning to roll this out at several points for cutscenes that involve different characters, although I didn't really consider it for every party member. You're right, though, I guess the player would wonder why this doesn't happen for everyone.

I think if I do go down this route, the stats and skills that get added to characters would have to make sense as you say.

 

[jonyfries]

Qualitative story line changes are likely the best way to let the player know that their choices matter without limiting too much what you can do. Quantative changes that are visible lead people that play video games a lot to min/max even if its not the story that they actually want to follow.

Changing stats are fine but if you're trying to make a game thats about story line without people trying to min/max themselves I would hide as much as possible that their choices effect stats and instead making it incredibly clear that it is the story and the interaction of the characters that changes.

While I agree with Tai_MT that a player may choose to ignore a player that isn't useful another player may love the character so much that they push on regardless as long as the game doesn't get impossibly hard. However, the way to deal with that isn't to let the players metagame their choices. The best (and most difficult) way to deal with it is to make all of the choices equally viable from a game play perspective while having them matter enough to be noticeable.

Depending on how many games you've developed in the past I would start this very small, yes the more imporant it is the better but doing it right the first time you try something is often very difficult. Make a few small games over a week or two and try out different ways to handle it and see which ones get the best feed back. Concept demos are, in my opinion, the best way to really feel an idea out before you invest months in doing something that turns out to not quite work.

 

[Mouser]

While I agree with Tai_MT that a player may choose to ignore a player that isn't useful another player may love the character so much that they push on regardless as long as the game doesn't get impossibly hard. However, the way to deal with that isn't to let the players metagame their choices. The best (and most difficult) way to deal with it is to make all of the choices equally viable from a game play perspective while having them matter enough to be noticeable.

Players will always metagame their choices, whether to make the game easier or harder, or for a 'challenge' game, or whatever.

Contrary to some opinions, metagaming is not necessarily a Bad Thing.

If the characters have visible stats that are affected by the starting dialogs, the walkthrough will be on the web approximately 3.6 seconds after your game goes live detailing exactly what choices affect which stats and how. Rather than fight it: embrace it. One "system" you could look at is from Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines - it's a single player cRPG (one of the best ever, even with Activision rushing Troika to finish).

For your character creation, you can either go directly to your character sheet and adjust your stats, or go through a series of questions (similar to your 'frog' example). At the end of the questions, you're shown your character sheet and allowed to make changes. The 'goal' of the questions is to create a character that will fit your playstyle.

If  your game allows major choices - like classes or skills, then you have to make sure that all of them are at least viable "builds" to get through the game. Ideally, they'd all be about equal, with some excelling in one section, and others excelling somewhere else. That's not an easy thing to do, and the worst possible outcome is for a player to get halfway through your game and then realize they've hopelessly 'gimped' one or more of their characters. That generally leads to a /ragequit, where they never finish your game and you get much trash talking and negative reviews as a result.

 

[Tai_MT]

That's actually the problem with the Fallout games.  The questions are so meaningless that you have no idea (even with a guide on your first play through!) if you're gimping yourself or not.  Energy Weapons are absolutely amazing and among some of the strongest weapons in the games.  The problem?  If you put a lot of points into them right off the bat, you're gimping your early and midgame because you won't be finding or using these weapons often until near endgame or hopelessly high levels.

Even if you answer the questions according to your "playstyle", there's just no way to know if the game actually lets you play like that, or play well like that.  I've often found that answering the questions, regardless, in those games, gives me stats I don't want or don't need.  I often just tell them "Let me fiddle with my stats" after the questions are over just so I can place things in essential areas for low level characters in order to maximize xp gain for much of the game and pick useful stats once I hit level 2 or level 3 (but, useful stats often don't matter until level 5... so you can inadvertently gimp yourself there as well).

It's a fairly frustrating thing to have your stats chosen by this method.  It's frustrating because you have to basically guess which stats might be useful, then guess which questions/answers the programmer determined would raise those stats, and finally hope that the stats you got via choices didn't hurt your character too badly or frustrate you beyond all measure.

 

[Sel Feena]

Still thinking of how best to implement this; thanks for everyone's comments and pointers. Perhaps, as this is the first time around for me trying this, the best solution may be to keep characters with base stats and skills that will ensure their utility and allow choices to result in bonus skills being available.

 

[omen613]

I like the basic idea of it all.

What I'd do personally is not give or take away skills from the characters based on these choices and not alter stats much or at all. Let's say your Witch character has a fire spell, and based on these flashback choices the fire spell gets altered.

Choice A: makes the fire spell add a burn effect

Choice B: makes the fire spell do more damage but no burn effect

Choice C: makes the fire spell now target all foes instead of just one but the damage is divided between all foes.

And each additional flashback adds another one of these traits again, stacking the effects if you will

Choice A: makes the fire spell add a burn effect

Choice B: makes the fire spell do more damage but no burn effect

Choice C: makes the fire spell now target all foes instead of just one but the damage is divided between all foes.

so now if the first two choices were:

A&B : fire spell's base damage is increased and it does a burn effect

A&A: fire spell adds 2 burn effects

C&C: Fire spell does damage to all foes but the division of damage is less

and so on

this way you still have access to the fire spell but its been customized by the player based on their decisions.