Initial Healing Class: Items or Magic

[Manofdusk]

I've been pondering something as of late. In a game where there are multiple healing classes, which is the best one?

Obviously, the best choice is "the simplest one", which narrows the field from 7 to 2:

Heirophant and Alchemist (these are the names of the 2 classes I use). Heirophant is the most basic "strait up healer". Healing and revival, but not much else (no status recovery, no special gimmicks, nothing).

Alchemist is an item user. They have the "Alchemy" skill that uses mp to turn single target items into party use items and can craft items from components.

The question now is: Which is better for an initial healing class? Most alchemy based classes I've seen come late in the game when you already have lots of items.

Having it come early may well mess with the item economy. With the alchemist, you won't need to buy as much (advanced healing items are meant to be expensive).

However, on the reverse side, having the Heirophant first makes you less reliant on gold in the beginning in order to heal.


So I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter. Magical or Item-based healing as an initial class?

 

[Guiguimu]

Well, Magical. Like you said, it allows to stack up some gold in the beginning, which will help because the player will be able to buy better equipment, weapons and items, helping the later class Alchemist. Plus, in the beginning, usually there aren't many enemies that can cause poison and other things like it, so healing and revival is all you need at first.
On the other side, if you provide sufficient ingredients right in the beginning to create a couple of potions for free, that can balanced things up - saving money while getting items.
I still prefer Magical, but either way, they are both good starting classes. This is my opinion, hope it helps!

 

[Rhaeami]

The only game I've seen where an item-user was your start-of-the-game healer in a multiple-healer game was Final Fantasy Tactics - and in that game, alchemists were the ONLY people who could use items. In the absence of such a restriction, the class might not come across as necessary at the beginning of the game because, as in your own example, other classes can use items anyway. They're better AT using items, but that's an optimization thing, and early players shouldn't really be expected to understand optimization classes just yet.

This is all assuming the player can choose, of course. If the game's characters' roles are set in stone, then an item specialist could be an interesting twist to your initial party, and a good way to force the player to learn about items. Certainly, most games where a magical healer is present from the get-go make items into a panic button that many players (myself included) seldom even use.

 

[Wavelength]

Generally in RPGs a standard "healer" is preferred to an item-user. You could carefully balance healing magic and items to make them each preferable in a lot of different situations, but most games don't get there. So most players would prefer having the healer (especially early on when the player's inventory is usually the most sparse), though in the same breath starting with a standard healer might make the item-user feel unnecessary or obsolete, at least as far as combat goes, when you get them later on.

 

[fireflyege]

Well I think Hierophant may be good early game but definitely not fun to play as. Why? Seemingly the class has little to no control over battle. Most healers you see have those status removes for a reason, and even though they have attacks. They have attacks not because they need the good old friend ''Smite'' badly, because it is a filler move so you do not feel useless when you don't have to heal people. Characters that just heal have a problem with using its strongest healing spell when its whole party are %90 health or just pressing that attack button for 0 damage. You want that class to be like that? Then do not make it a healbot.

Alchemist may sound fun though, as for the wallet requirement that is how life is. Good things ain't cheap. If you have a rich database most item users are one of the most exciting classes to play as espicially the Alchemist types but I would not limit the Alchemist to items.

 

[Tai_MT]

Here's what'll happen. If you start out with the magical healer... there's no reason to ever use the one that heals with items. MP is easily restorable on the cheap (meaning maybe 100 Gold for a full restoration of all that MP) while each Potion could cost 30 Gold, but only heal a quarter of a single character's HP. But, if you start out with the item healer, once you get the Magical Healer... your players are going to see that as an upgrade to the existing mechanic of "I need to heal my party". Why? Because, suddenly, healing is so much easier to do, so much cheaper, so much less resource intensive.

There's a reason that in nearly every single RPG ever created, players choose a dedicated magical healer to bring with their party. That healer is not something that can be ditched in terms of optimal play. So, the more optimal that healing is, the more likely it's going to end up in the party as the preferred method of doing so.

As such, there's really only ever one type of healer in any RPG: The magic casting healer that can target everyone, use small amounts of MP to heal large amounts of health, and can get their MP refilled to maximum... very cheaply in any town or at any save point.

Even for me, the only "alternatives" to this magic healing class that I've seen are healing classes that just do something else on top of healing, which makes them worth using instead of your basic "Healer" type class. I prefer Paladin classes because they usually come with moderate fighting ability and moderate healing ability. I like the trade-off because if I have turns where I don't need to heal someone, I can still do a decent amount of damage to enemies. I usually trade over the "I only heal" classes for one of these Paladin type classes where they mix combat and fighting ability, but that's really the only exception. I get rid of item healers as early as I can, or "vampire" type healers as well, or other types of healers that are less reliable than your standard "White Mage".

I've grappled with this particular problem quite a bit, and it's actually the reason I removed "dedicated healer" classes in my own game altogether. I want the players to spend their gold. I want them to heal with items. It's why the very few (right now, only two) healing skills I have in my game are so... weak. It's the only way I could think of to get players to use items, to buy items, to care about the consumables they were buying and what extra effects those consumables may have.

Maybe if your Item Healer added extra beneficial effects to items instead of just "they're more effective", it might be worth it to carry along. I mean, what if when the Item Healer used a Phoenix Down (a revival item) on an ally, that ally was then then "Immune to Death" for 5 turns, so that even if they lost all their HP, they wouldn't go down, until the effect wore off? What if when they used an MP restorative item on an ally, that ally got 2 turns of "Zero MP Cost"?

I think your Item Healing class is going to need some seriously beneficial effects or features to make it competitive with the Magical Healer who has a lot of advantages.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Some newer rpgs I've played let item-based healers 'break the rules'; One Alchemist actually pulls out items from a 'hidden stash' that can only be used in battle and has a large build up (cooldown similar to stun would accomplish something similar). You can also let items be more than single use (especially for this class). Or, like in FFT, the item using class is the only class that uses items, but items are also cheap (except maybe in the first few battles) and instant, while magic takes longer. The class also had great versatility in fighting, if not great damage; Knives used speed in calculation, and later Guns had extreme range.

If items are cheap and plentiful, then the item user has an advantage to the more powerful magic-healer.

Lastly, my favorite 'item healer' was in Final Fantasy Adventure, where one partner lets you buy healing items from him. If your item-healer class lets you convert money to potions, even only out of battle, then they have a fantastic ability, even early on when you don't need to heal as often.

 

[Manofdusk]

I like some of these ideas for the Item healer. I remember a "stash" ability and one of the NPCs does have a shop you can access, so I see these as pretty good ideas. Multi-use items are also a good idea, as well as "bonus effect". I think that might need to be a separate ability that you can stack, though.

As for the Heirophant... yeah, they're pretty much healbots.... and, you know, I kind of want them to be that way. They're the best at healing because healing is all they do. They're very good to switch to when you need the healing power (boss fights, for example), but maybe not so much for when you don't. "Fun" is also a balancing tool

 

[ScientistWD]

I'm the opposite of @Tai_MT; in my games, there are only a few healing items if any. Instead, I have players rely on class skills or healing checkpoints.
As a result, I think that it depends on how important items themselves are in the game in question.
If items are a big deal a the beginning of the game, and they're a big part of how you expect players to meet their challenges, then the item-based healer should be fine.
But if they aren't important at the beginning, or they aren't important ever, then I don't think there's any reason to make the healer item-based.
In my opinion, though, the "healing class" itself is pretty boring, though. An item-based healer might encourage a bit of discretion by players, and make them consider their resources a bit more carefully.

Just a thought.

 

[fireflyege]

@ScientistWD is right about healing classes being pretty boring but why? Because they do not have any interaction with their own enemies. I think you can do things that force the healer to interact with the enemy once in a while to keep it interesting for example if you use both MP and TP, you can do many interesting things. For example make the healer attack once in a while to get a buff that increases your healing or mana management would be a good start.

 

[kirbwarrior]

@ScientistWD is right about healing classes being pretty boring but why? Because they do not have any interaction with their own enemies. I think you can do things that force the healer to interact with the enemy once in a while to keep it interesting for example if you use both MP and TP, you can do many interesting things. For example make the healer attack once in a while to get a buff that increases your healing or mana management would be a good start.

I've played very few rpgs where the healer is merely a heal bot. Often, healers are at least one of;
1) Capable of offence but not the best (Angelo from Dragon Quest VIII, Red Mages from Final Fantasy and Bravely Default)
2) Support class where healing is merely one of the options (Most Final Fantasies... that have classes)
3) The hero, where you have the most options and thus are juggling every type of combat action
4) Have a gimmick, such as summoning (FFX Yuna), stealing, giving out extra turns
5) Healing is the gimmick (Fire Emblem), because healing is rare and you desperately want someone who can do it.

And even then, Final Fantasy is known for Holy, being the one amazing offense spell that sometimes puts everyone else to shame; Rose in Final Fantasy 4 has this and can fight, but she's healing in battles such as the final boss because you're constantly on the brink of death. Final Fantasy 1 actually had a great spell that I don't think I've seen in another rpg (sans the bug in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest); Rub does more damage than an equal level spell from the black mage but only against undead.

The one place where 'healbot' is a thing is in Final Fantasy Tactics A2, where the white mage pretty much only heals... except that you have secondary commands to make the white mage do other things, or other classes cast white magic, and tons of classes to pick from.

 

[fireflyege]

@kirbwarrior I do not mean the classes that can heal and also attack, I mean the pure healer classes. To give an example:

In Final Fantasy yes the White Mage has Holy and it is awesome but you can spam this and act like a mage. It is clear that OP wants nothing about that and just wants a class that solely heals, so my idea is not a heavy damaging attack like Holy. You can basically spam Holy and act like a mage all day. This does not seem like a good design in a battle system if you do not want to make it too simple.

@Fernyfer775 made a great example of his healer's offensive spell for instance, in his game Eternal Twilight. His healer, Damien is by no means offensive and his spells are all heals except Smite which is a not so impressive damage and a heal to the ally with the lowest health then you get a random buff which makes you do your job better.

LoL also has that system where Soraka, the premiere healing champion must land her attack for healing herself over time and transfer that HoT with her healing ability, both healing herself but healing her ally more. It is an offensive spell that directly enhances her healing as well.

I think both of them are good design, because they do not feel boring and they interact with their enemies and interacting with their enemies have a much greater benefit than just damage.

 

[kirbwarrior]

@fireflyege Right. My point was actually trying to show how rare 'healbots' exist. Any of the examples I gave turn the 'healbot' into an actual character. And if I were to make an item-based healing class, I'd probably also make them the thief. Why? Steal all your ingredients in random encounters, steal equipment from bosses to weaken them. Now you have two clear roles (healer/stealer) combined into one class so they always have something to do without detracting from the 'feel' of relying entirely on items.

Actually, I think Final Fantasy X-2's white mage is a heal bot. It even replaces attack with 'pray' which heals a small amount to the party. If it weren't for the dresssphere system (a focus on changing classes during battle), I'd never make someone a white mage. All the other classes that can heal have other options.

 

[fireflyege]

@kirbwarrior but healbots do exist in many games. They are not rare, but that does not mean they are not fun to play.

My item based healer is the Magitech and it is actually a battle medic. It has the typical use 2 potions but give all the team the benefits of potion type of skill while having a passive %20 pharmacology boost. But the guy can still heal with his abilities if he is short on items, of course unlike items class's healing skills are not percent healing but they still get the job done. It has 2 noticable skills.

-Nanobots, an AoE HoT that is actually pitiful.
-Other healing skills that all do get stronger if the target has Nanobots. For example when you try to bandage them Nanobots do as well, granting increased healing or various bonuses.

So the class actually can continue to do healing if he is out of items.

Looking at the Thief healer, it seems like Thief cannot do anything if its enemies does not drop items, and makes spending large amounts of money or farming a must, which most players will not like. If item drops are RNG it is even worse because healers are picked for a reason and only one reason, reliability. DPS can waste a turn or two so they do not need to be that reliable (hence the crit classes) but for healer wasting a turn when your healing is crucial is not an option.

 

[M.I.A.]

Ah, the age old question.. Healing Items or Healing Magic?

My solution? Why not both?!?

A Mystic (Alchemist, Priest, White Mage, Etc.) that specializes in Magic arts.. is the only class that has Healing Magic.. but also has an ability (Passive, Instant.. whatever) that increases the effectiveness of Item Use.

This can be applied to all items. Give Items 2 levels. Regular & Unlocked.
Have your Mystic cast Cure and it heals for 100 HP. Have you Mystic use Potion and it heals for 75 HP.
Have your Mystic use their Limit Breaker State "Unlock", now all Items used by the Mystic are second tier.
Cure still heals for 100 HP.. but Unlocked Potion now heals for 150HP.

Items aren't as effective as Magic, but Magic isn't as effective as Unlocked Items.
Other example for balance purposes:

- Antidote:
Magic: Refresh (Removes Poison & Sleep from one ally)
Item: Antidote (Removes Poison from one ally)
Unlocked Antidote: Recover (Removes Poison & Sleep from all Allies)

- Potion:
Magic: Cure (Heals 100 HP to an ally)
Item: Potion (Heals 75 HP to an ally)
Unlocked Potion: Elixer (Heals 125 HP & 20 MP to an ally)

- Bomb Frag:
Magic: Smite (Deals 200 dmg to all foes)
Item: Bomb (Deals 150 dmg to all foes)
Unlocked Bomb: Bomb Fragment (Deals 250 dmg to all foes)

The only real limitations are you own creativity!! That's the joy of being a hobbyist/developer/creator!!
Hope you find this helpful!!

-MIA

 

[kirbwarrior]

@kirbwarrior but healbots do exist in many games. They are not rare, but that does not mean they are not fun to play.

I haven't played enough rpgs to have really seen them much (I'm so glad I keep finding hidden gems on the snes). What are some single-player rpgs that have healbots? How do they make sure it's a fun role?
I'm not saying thief-healer is the best option, but I like thieves and always make sure the thief steals at least once per encounter because encounters usually go by fast enough it's still worth it. But I also don't like the idea that stealing can miss or items might not drop.
Actually, FF8 had a unique system similar to this. You literally steal magic from enemies. And you could 'steal-cast' spells. Some bosses even had heal spells so a crafty player would realize you could heal forever if you can survive the onslaught.
A character that does nothing but heal sounds about the same as a character that does nothing but attack. And that's what auto-berserk is for.

 

[Manofdusk]

well, the main reason I want the hierophant to be a heal-bot is because of the way the class system is set up. You have "crests" and "gems". Each crest represents a role (tank, healer, warrior, mage, and rogue) with each gem representing a theme. The diamond represents "light" which entails healing and smiting and the "healer" crest pretty much gets a double dose of healing. They're the healer class of the element that specializes in healing. They're the only class that gets access to actual resurrection magic (other healer classes can prevent death in one way or another, but once you're at 0 hp, the Heirophant is the only way to bring them back outside of town without items). I actually drew inspiration from ffX-2 with the design.

Making pure healers engaging, IMO, is more a factor of monster design than class design. If the monsters deal relatively consistent damage in small to moderate chunks, the healer is left with little to do. "Spike" damage is helpful in this regard. Enemies have 1-2 skills that just pack a punch far greater than their other skills and they use it early, but not often. However, Spike damage without a "tell" is generally a bad idea. Skills that enemies use to buff themselves (by a LOT) for 1 turn and then use the spike skill next turn make for good tells..... as well as a self buff/debuff so that the healer can alter their AGI to go before/after the Spike and make those kinds of decisions from turn to turn will be what makes a heal-bot (or most any healer) engaging.

At least, that's my take on heal-bots.

My basic design for my Alchemist actually works similarly to what you're describing, M.I.A.
Stash: Self buff that reduces your Agi to 0 (-999) but makes it so that you don't consume an item.
Distill: Self buff that increases your PHA by 100%
Forage: Usable on the map only and expends all TP but gives a chance (based on TP expended) to give you a basic item.
Mix: Enables the crafting menu
Alchemy: Expends MP to turn a single-use item into a party-use item.

As for stealing spells and items, I'm a big fan myself and some of the other classes have those mechanics. Disgaea 2 had a thing where thieves could steal stats. I sort of want to do something like that. I'd like to do something like ff8 but I'm not sure if there's a plugin for that. I know there are tons of "Blue Magic" plugins, but not any aimed at ff8's take.

 

[kirbwarrior]

They're the only class that gets access to actual resurrection magic

Mix: Enables the crafting menu

I like your idea of crest and gem combinations, and thus the heirophant is the healer-healer class. But I wanted to point these two things out. One of the things I was saying about healers is 'healer with a gimmick' instead of just a heal bot. Being the one class that can cancel the seemingly permanence of death AND gives us the crafting menu are giant gimmicks that line up perfectly with the class. And it sounds like you are very much trying to make sure fights are engaging, so yes, this class sounds fun. Kudos to you

 

[Manofdusk]

well, the Mix skill is for Alchemist, but thanks each of the healer classes have their own theme and you will be able to pick a subclass so you won't entirely be a one trick pony with any of them.

 

[kirbwarrior]

well, the Mix skill is for Alchemist, but thanks each of the healer classes have their own theme and you will be able to pick a subclass so you won't entirely be a one trick pony with any of them.

Oops, I mixed the classes in my head . Also, if subclassing is allowed, then classes can be narrow because characters won't be. It actually sounds quite fun.