Inspiration versus copying in Map Making.

[GrandmaDeb]

I have the unique opportunity to be a muse, at times.


I think a lot and observe a lot and I guess I stay aware of what people ask for somehow. =P


But at creating resources, let's just say I am in my developmental stages. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen that there is no thing-a-ma-gig, tried to make one, make a really sub-standard one, and then, lo and behold, my muse powers are released and artists make them! It is like magic!


If only it didn't require my life's blood.


So the problem is that I bring equally amazing artistic sensibilities to map making. I have a few brain cells left, and I know what I want and where it fits in my game, and Indrah and other folks have written great tuts and kept me in line ( =D ) and I do not mind paying a few $$$ for better maps than I can make. But really I do need to make SOME of my maps. (Money not growing on the farm, and all that.)


So this is my question: how can let other folks, be MY muse, without me being the dirt-bag copy creeper?


Of course, making new art pixel by pixel is very different from making a map tile by tile. If someone makes a cool map with a great combo of elevations and decor, to what degree can I imitate without over-stepping?


Obviously, maps made with the same tileset will look similar.


I just saw a map today on twitter and honestly, it is the PERFECT background for my next map. I had completed the main building with a store tileset, but the background - well, my artistic balloon is out of air.


I don't know the guy on Twitter well enough to just ask to use his map! and I would never "steal" it.


How on earth can I handle this?


/me pouts in corner

 

[Ms Littlefish]

I like to look at things as having parts and components. They come together to make a whole image or a whole piece of music, but they are made of several elements. So, instead of looking at the whole image I would rather look specifically at the pieces that inspire me.

When I listen to a song that inspires me sometimes there is an ultra specific instrument that I'm into, and I emulate that one element.

Next, you need to make sure to keep it GrandmaDeb. While we draw inspiration from many sources, over time we developed our own nuances and artistic signatures. There are things we do because we like them that way! We want to make space for our inspirations but we can't lose our identity in the process.

Also, I usually just mention where my inspiration is from. That in no way helps with accidental over-simulation, but hey, mimicry is supposed to be a high form of compliment they say. 

 

[Banquo]

Ms Littlefish has a good point there. Sometimes you might see how someone makes really good use of a specific tiles. For example I wanted to make a map for a palace and wanted to make use of different types of rich floor tiles. I tried to make some kind of pattern with them, but it looked terrible. So I searched the web for good looking palace maps and how they did the floors.

Everything else was still done myself.

Another example would be, where I took inspiration from a map from Seiken Densetsu 3: Navarre Fortress. (---> not sure if I'm allowed give you a link to spriters resource)

The entrance of this castle is on a lower level than the throne room, so attackers would have to break through a few inner doors, before reaching it - all while being attacked from above by the defenders. Sure, that never happens in the game, but this is something I had in mind when I was looking for a good castle design.

This was the only idea I "stole". Otherwise I used a different tileset, and a completely different layout for all the other rooms and hallways.

Or you could always look at real locations for inspiration, too. Old castles, towns, roman ruins.

 

[Indrah]

Take the concept, not the execution.

Say, for example, you want to make semi-intricate areas to make up for the lack of map quality. Having an interesting layout already covers a LOT of the visual prettyness. It's easier to make an interesting map if its layout is semi-complex or interesting than having to make flat field look good. 

So if you have no particular inspiration for an area already, try to thing up an interesting layout style. And inspiring yourself by areas other games or media have used is a fine choice. A labyrinth across various vertical levels, a spiralling tower, a dungeon that you must navigate by zigzagging around because of cracks in the floor, a river crisscrossing your path so you must use bridges and shallows, a mine where holes must be crossed with carts, and a million etc. Even if you don't want to actually delve into evented dungeon territory there are a lot of things you can do if you have a layout and concept in mind.

It's good sometimes to look around and pick out interesting area concepts. NEVER the execution (aka opening up the map and copying it at every step) but for example I clearly remember playing Alundra fairly recently and thinking "I should make a mine level like this sometimes, where you unlock new carts to cross over chasms, carts can also destroy blockages, help you climb to new elevated areas, etc".

I think it's perfectly fine to want to make a similar concept as long as you don't claim it was absolutely your invention or the exact distribution is the same. 

If you want to go one step above just taking a concept, build on it. So you see a very neat waterfall multi-layered cave, for example, and want to use something similar. BUILD on it. Add and remove parts yourself (in this example, maybe add secret caves BEHIND the waterfall, a minilake, some shallows, etc), break the structure of the original map to have a different shape, etc. 

Unless your map is a blatant copy of the original, I don't think you should feel too bad in taking inspiration from concepts. Of course this changes if the map is too obviously lifted, but I've rarely seen this, and most even semi-decent devs are mindful of that.

Honestly, in general and especially if you can't map very well, GET A SOLID LAYOUT CONCEPT. It's infinitely easier to work aiming at a rough idea than just "fill out a mossy cave". Though coming up with concepts may be a bit difficult (I know I've mapping a ****ton of aimless stuff, detail or not) it pays off. And no one owns the idea of "hedge labyrinth" or "multilayered, moving plataform temple". You don't have to feel too guilty about taking loose concepts. 

EDIT: About puzzles. It's more obvious when someone takes the concept of a very unique and original puzzle IN those areas, because good unique puzzles stick to memory. Same as above, even if you like a puzzle concept you should build and modify it.

(Look at that rant. I totally forget where I was going with this. Oh welp.)

 

[Scythuz]

To be fair no matter what you do you're probably getting inspiration from something indirectly no matter what.  So there's not really much point in worrying about it so long as you're not copying tile by tile.  

If it helps though you can always use multiple influences and forge your own style from them.  Maybe as you make you maps, you could have a few pictures of maps that you want to use as inspiration open to refer to?  It'd be particularly useful if you have a 2nd monitor so you can have your map and the inspirational ones side by side. 

 

[GrandmaDeb]

Okay. Well, I looked over RYU's desert map. I ended up using the Mack edits he used (of the palm trees) and some of my own resources since I couldn't find what he was using (pebbles and stuff.)


So I actually tried just sticking my house into his map because - well, I wanted to see if a map like that would work at all. I had previously planned a desert - flat sand and palm trees kind of thing. And putting my house in his desert mapping - that is what you see "in my dreams." Then I tried to bring it all together - not just make my own desert cliffs (nowhere near as good but I tried) but adding the rest of the commercial shops, etc. So unless this is a copy (in the final product) I guess I will just keep on going and try and go on with further edits.


To me, you really can see a difference in the work of people who have a sense of style, but for those of us who were standing behind the door, well we still gotta try...

 

[Chiakscare]

There's a fine and definite line between inspiration and plagiarism; inspiration from Rurouni Kenshin can result in a defined swordsman that has no similarities other than that he has a katana, wears kimono and knows kenjutsu.

Plagiarism gives you a swordsman in kimomo with a katana who knows kenjutsu; he was orphaned to slave traders who were murdered by bandits; he was saved by a swordsman who went on his way; the next morning, the swordsman returned to find the child had buried all the dead and took him as apprentice; they have a conflict and the child goes on to become a legendary assassin for one of the two warring factions prior to the Meiji Restoration and his swordsmanship is nigh undefeatable. Throw in some sword techniques, some black screens with white and blue flickers, and you have successfully ripped off one of the most known anime swordsmen. 

Or you can have that Japanese swordsman be a noble samurai who serves his lord while carrying all the character quirks that make him a unique and fresh individual; both inspired by the same source, but one has everything you yourself breathed into them to give them their own life.

I kind of babbled. Hope I wasn't annoying or long-winded. XD

Anyway, what I see in your maps is inspiration; the final product is unique to itself.

 

[GrandmaDeb]

thanks. I will live with my inadequacies and seek to improve. I appreciate the input from everyone. Your perspectives give me confidence.

 

[Celianna]

Closed due to OP's request.