Instead of getting stronger, you get weaker

[SinのAria]

So, one of my projects essentially has it where you are fairly strong at the start already, but shortly after the start, you end up getting an insane amount of power. Now, you can actually choose to keep all of your powers (this is actually canon in that particular game), but you can also choose to sacrifice pieces of your power to do various tasks.  In the second game, you essentially have to make the same choices, except it is canon to start losing your powers. (First game is more about you being consumed by power and essentially taking over the world until you finally find a reason to redeem yourself, second game is essentially a side story of after you've redeemed yourself and now your power is needed elsewhere).

Now, I've been working on this game for a while and keep remaking it when new tools come out (RPG Maker VX Ace, now RPG Maker MV).

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So that being said, what does everyone think about such a concept? Where you start off as strong as you can be in the game, but have to make choices that may result in you becoming weaker. 

Obviously, in my case, this is in a game where even at the weakest state, you could beat the strongest enemies, as the battle mechanics are based more on strategy and solving mysteries than actual strength. (I even have an easy mode and a no combat battle system).

 

[JosephSeraph]

I feel it might rob 90% of the fun. It can be done, but it must be clever. If you take off the rewards instead of giving them you need to mechanically balance that somehow.

 

[Ellie Jane]

It's essentially a normal game anyway - as typical rpgs go on you get weaker respective to your own level enemies (in that they get stronger). It sounds a neat idea, and I think will work well.

 

[lithkast]

The thing about that method is that it doesn't work for an entire rpg as a whole.  You could make that concept work with one character, possibly a temp character, but not with an entire group. 

The problem you will run into is that what if the PC's get too weak to defeat the game?  they just get stuck.  If they get stuck, and don't have a save point anywhere useful (or rather, if they get to a point that save scrubbing wont matter) they will have to restart the game all over again.  This leads to frustration on the player's part.   You could try to alleivate it by making the final boss of the game able to be beaten by the PC's even if they are completely weakened, but then that would destroy any semblance of challenge for the majority of players who manage to get to the boss with a decent amount of power left.  

That's my thought anyways. 

 

[SinのAria]

The thing is that the idea behind the game I am working on is that you get more skilled as you progress. Meaning you get better at making strategies.

Essentially it is like first you are playing chess but all your pieces are queens. Then slowly, you go down to your normal pieces and maybe even start having handicaps on your end.

 

[Wavelength]

One of the possible ways I could see this going for a lot of players is doing whatever it takes to keep all their powers, thus adding a very different (and not necessarily good) difficulty curve to the game.  There are probably ways to make this work, especially for a relatively short adventure, but - while I think the concept is cool and innovative - off the cuff I can't think of any way to pull this off that would feel better than an "ordinary" power-gain structure.  Maybe if you gave some specifics of choices and consequences, we could say for sure?

One more suggestion: it seems very weird to me that you'd place this kind of emphasis on choice and sacrifice, and then return to whatever you decided was "canon" at the beginning of each game.  I feel this will cause a giant disconnect with the player, and I'd recommend either making your entire saga as one coherent game, or having data that dealt with the players' power-sacrifice decisions carry over between games in your series.

 

[SinのAria]

Essentially, the saga switches main characters each time. The previous main character takes a side role after each part of the sidestory saga. (The first sidestory is the second game).

As for how I have it set up... Here is an example early on of a power swap (not weaker necessarily, but different):

You can change your battle mode.  You have several battle modes to choose from, each are introduced at different points (some are difficulty locked and only available on the easiest or most difficult difficulty).  

The first battle mode allows you to have four party members plus one support member who gives your party various effects depending on who is the support (one support member prevents game overs, one makes you immune to instant death style attacks (super high damage, instant death effect, petrify, etc.), and so on).

Then, you get put into a battle where your party is restricted and the MC must fight alone. After this, you have the option to switch to the duel battle mode. This mode forces all battles to be 1 vs 1, but makes it so you can only have one party member and no supporters. Choosing this option will remove one of your party members as a party member and adds them to your inventory as equipment (there are other ways to do this as well).

However, there are also choices that will straight out make you weaker.

You have a skill that once used, gives you a permanent debuff. However, when the skill is used, for that battle, your stats are raised to an absurdly high point. The skill can only be used once. This means you can essentially ensure that you win a battle that may otherwise be very difficult, but in exchange, you make later battles harder.

You also have points in the story where you have to make choices. For example, after beating various storyline enemies, you could choose to give up some of your power in order to form a contract with that enemy. This could mean that the enemy gives you some benefits every now and then (perhaps regular donations of wealth), a new weapon, or even a new party member. However, in exchange, you lose some ability. Perhaps you lose your ability to auto-res once per battle? Perhaps it is your automatic mana regeneration? Not doing so may have consequences. Perhaps the enemy was keeping a group of people under control and if you kill them, that group will be free? Perhaps if you let them go, they may later cause problems for you? Thus, you must weigh the benefits of keeping your powers versus restricting yourself.

There are also critical points where you must make a sacrifice or you will end up towards a bad end. For example, you are given the choice to flee or use yourself to block an attack designed to wipe out that world. If you flee, it will lead to a bad end (you are supposed to be protecting the world in exchange for the safety of your own world). If you use yourself to block the attack, you permanently lose your ability to prevent game overs.

The thing about the game is that there is a 'canon' proper ending. However, to see that ending, you must first see a few endings. Each time you reach a different end, it goes back to the start with you keeping part of your progress. Each ending you see changes the story in some way. First ending you obtain, regardless of which one, unlocks certain in-battle abilities (that you can sacrifice or use). Certain endings unlock different abilities. Seeing the 'canon' ending will result in a few new elements to the story as well. Each ending also reveals some secret. Even the bad ends have secrets, though more minor (unless you meet certain conditions such as seeing every bad end or seeing various bad ends a set number of times). Every ending is canon except the happy ending.

There is a point where you have to sacrifice a party member. In the "happy" ending, you are given the choice to sacrifice the person who in canon, could not have been there (having them there would have required the sacrifice to have already happened). That person happening to be the one who could auto-revive.

There is also the note where later battles get harder if you choose not to make any sacrifices. Especially one particular battle mid-late game.

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Also, I swear that the playtesters of my game's original version were losing on purpose just to collect all the bad ends... I probably shouldn't have made a book in the inventory that shows you which bad ends you've obtained... I think someone really did get the bad end for seeing all the other non-secret bad ends (there were a few bad ends that required you to really go out of your way to see).

 

[Wavelength]

First of all, huge respect for the gameplay creativity chops you've got, Aria.  Those are some nifty ideas.

With that being said, it sounds like you've really got a lot of different gameplay systems and one-off choices that you're kind of mentally organizing as "sacrificing power over the course of the game", but they are in reality wholly different concepts that I imagine have wildly different effects on the gameplay.  Some are simply choosing one type of power or gameplay over another (party vs. dueling), some are essentially challenge modes (get a better ending by giving up your ability to auto-revive), others are story hooks that come about by choosing an arbitrary gameplay (dis/)advantage (choose whether to kill or contract with an enemy).

I have no idea how all these disparate mechanics are going to play into each other in practice, so all I'd say is - have people playtest, playtest, playtest!  See if the game ever becomes too hard, too boring, or unintuitive.  See if the effects on plot feel satisfying to your players or whether they feel that the consequences were too unforeseen.  Ask questions and - if possible - have them stream their play with the game so you can see how they're interacting with all these different elements.

 

[SinのAria]

I definitely agree that it is hard to tell how everything will work together.


To be more exact, it is making choices that change your power. It just happens that in the main game, the choices to weaken yourself aren't really 'canon' while in the sidestory, the choices to weaken yourself are canon.


I have to say that rather than too boring, most of my feedback has been too hard. Though I did get one feedback that one of my battle mechanics was unintuitive (I use a RPS battle mechanic where swift>crush>guard>swift)

 

[M.I.A.]

I agree that it would all depend on the delivery. I like the concept, but making a game that doesn't scale quite right (Clash of Clans) can get boring, infuriating, and feel like a constant grind.

How about a suggestion: Start powerful, loose all power, as part of the story you must journey to regain all those powers, and then once allmightyalloveragain, selectively sacrifice SOME powers strengths' in lieu of increasing OTHER powers strengths?

I'd be interested in seeing how this project goes!!

 

[Razoir]

This is a very interesting concept, well thought ! I'm actually working in a game with a mechanic that works a bit like it. The MC has the ability to steal powers ( by killing enemies ) so after each boss, he has to decide whether to steal his powers ( and kill him ) or to recruit him. Those powers can then be sacrificed for stats or transferred to a teammate.

You might want to take a look at Hero Must Die, the game actually starts when the Hero defeats the Demon King but is then cursed to slowly lose power till he dies. Quickly, his legendary armor and weapons become too heavy for him to carry and he'll then roll down to level 1. In the meantime, he needs to help as much as he can so he his remembered as long as possible.

 

[SinのAria]

Actually, Starting powerful then losing all your power early on is exactly why I am doing it this way. I feel that it would be more interesting if you have to slowly lose your power. Though I also want it to be somewhat of a choice rather than something like a curse.


However, your gear can get stronger. One town may have amazing gear compared to another town. As you progress and get access to various gear, you can get stronger gear. It might not help as much as say the ability to always get a first strike on an enemy, but it would help reduce the penalties of losing power.


(On the other hand, the first game did have a point where you are forced to lose the strongest weapon in the game (which was the source of most of your powers), but you get other weapons that are also very powerful).


Essentially, first game, you get a weapon that gives you absurd amount of power. About midway, you lose the weapon since it was cursed and breaking the curse also made the weapon leave. You then get to use your backup weapon as well as being able to collect other weapons. You get a few choices that let you lose your powers, but those aren't really canon.


Sidestory/second game, you have struck a deal to protect your original world. One of your weapons remains between worlds in order to support you while your backup weapon stays with you, but in 'human' form. As you progress, you deal with various incidents that cause you to be forced to make choices. Each time you finish an ending, you unlock more choices. You keep a lot, but a lot is reset as well.