frostwolf3

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hey guys so i was wondering if you know or have any good ideas on how to make a battle more engaging with player
i dont want them to just press button when prompted and thats it
i want them to be actively pressing buttons and really interested in the battle
 

bgillisp

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While I don't have an idea, I need to post a caution about that. The more twitch heavy you make your battle system, the more likely you will lose the older gamers. For example, I have a condition in my hands that does not let me do active button press battles without pain after 5 - 10 minutes of that, so games that are that way in battle are refunded by me now, no matter how good the rest of the game is, as my hands can't take it anymore. And those who grew up on games are getting older now so this will be more common too.

I've moved this thread to Game Mechanics Design. Thank you.

 

Kes

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Even without hand/wrist injury you need to be cautious about this because it is in essence reflex dependent, at least the ones I've played. Some people do not have fast reflexes. You will lose them as well.
 

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I am big fan of combo stuff =) i want to recommend it
 

Fernyfer775

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Kes and bgillisp make good points, but on the other hand, maybe the people that don't like that sort of thing or are unable to play those sort of reactionary games are not your target audience. Find your target audience and cater to their wants and needs.

As for doing what you want, moghunter has a pretty cool action input plugin that allows you to input button sequences to chain together attacks, which will make your game more interactive in combat:

https://atelierrgss.wordpress.com/rmv-chain-commands/
 

bgillisp

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There is a way to keep the player interested and use turn based battles. After all, I haven't heard anyone complain that Persona's battles are boring, and they use a turn based battle. It's all in how you design it.

Usually one thing I find that keeps players interested though is to keep the animations short. If every attack has an animation as long as FF7's Supernova, then players will start to tune them out. Or if battles are so long that each turn can take 5 - 10 minutes between you and the enemy, players will read a book. I just finished playing Wizardry 8 (again) and I had one fight go 55 minutes due to the sheer size of it (I know as I clocked it) and it wanting to show me every little enemy moving. I spent most of that time reading a book, and joked that fight was like "It's a fight! Bring your friends friends friends friends friends friends friends friends."

Another example: I remember playing Age of Wonders 2 a long time ago, and the time it takes for all of the CPU turns to be done was so long due to it trying to show so much I graded papers while waiting for the CPU turns to finish. And in the end the turns were so long I had all my papers graded by the end of that weekend too.

So basically it comes down to keep it short and don't add needless stuff. If you do that, you can make turn based battles interesting, and don't need active button combos and twitch battles to do.
 

Kes

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@Fernyfer775 Please remember that this particular forum is about design, not implementation, so please don't start recommending specific plugins etc.
 

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Even for people without wrist/hand issues, those reflex-based battle systems get really tiring/annoying really fast. Back in the prime days of Flash gaming, I really enjoyed an RPG series called Mardek (1-3) but I really didn't care for its button-timing-based attack and defense mechanic. It felt like it really slowed down battles and honestly, having to deal with timing-based mechanics in what should be a quick fight against common mooks isn't really fun.
 

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Plus there is the fact that the more twitch games you play, the more likely you are to develop hand/wrist issues. The issue is something called RSS, Repetitive Stress Syndrome, and it occurs when you overuse a finger (like say to click the A button a lot). Eventually the nerve gets damaged and it starts to act like it hurts even when you don't use it to play a game.

I develeoped it at early as 24. So it doesn't take long of playing twitch or action games either.
 
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Engr. Adiktuzmiko

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i dont want them to just press button when prompted and thats it

Its actually easier to make action games that fall to that problem. A lot of action games I've played are more of button mashing or simply press this button at this moment which is actually kinda frustrating.. It keeps you in the battle, yes, but not because the battle itself is engaging but because the system forces you to do so..

Anyway, I think it really boils down to the overall design of the game. You cant just put something like an action based system or a different turn based and expect it to immediately alleviate the "boringness" of battles. Every system in your game should work together in order for it to be truly engaging.

Also, make sure battles need a bit of strategy but never force a single strategy to the player. Super easy battles are boring but battles where there is only one way to win is simply frustrating and doesnt allow the player to be creative.
 

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Its actually easier to make action games that fall to that problem. A lot of action games I've played are more of button mashing or simply press this button at this moment which is actually kinda frustrating.. It keeps you in the battle, yes, but not because the battle itself is engaging but because the system forces you to do so..

Anyway, I think it really boils down to the overall design of the game. You cant just put something like an action based system or a different turn based and expect it to immediately alleviate the "boringness" of battles. Every system in your game should work together in order for it to be truly engaging.

Also, make sure battles need a bit of strategy but never force a single strategy to the player. Super easy battles are boring but battles where there is only one way to win is simply frustrating and doesnt allow the player to be creative.

Engineer Adik makes a really interesting point here. While I do contend that Action Battle Systems keep the player more consistently 'engaged' (in the sense of always doing something, and having agency over what's happening), there are a lot of ABS's that do boil down to run up to the enemy and mash the attack button until it dies (and hope it hits you as few times as possible during this and heal afterwards), which - yeah, it does become boring. I think the key to a fun, truly engaging system is that every button the player hits has a purpose behind it. They're doing this and not that for a very good reason. Their choices are important; their timing is important; their positioning is important... and every situation (and type of enemy) requires slightly different choices and timing and positioning. When the player succeeds in a system like this, it feels great.
 

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Right, everything needs a purpose. I've played boring ABS, I've played boring games with an ATB system, and I've played games with exciting turn based systems. It all depends on what you let the player do.

Example: Jagged Alliance 2 uses a turn based system for the battles, but you can get really creative in that system. Can't get inside that house due to all the enemies holding the door? Just take an explosive and create a new door and flank them from there!
 

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Also, is RPG Maker even the proper engine for an action battle system? I know there's been a few games that used it, but the few I've seen/played aren't as solid as games made in engines more appropriate for those type of games.
 

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IMHO its good for ABS that plays like old Zelda or something, but for really super action oriented style, I feel like nah. Unless you can really manipulate things to a good degree as opposed to simply using an existing publicly usable script/plugin, I feel like it's just hard to make it work that nicely. Plus 2D kinda limits the kind of "actions" possible as opposed to doing action games on 3D.

For turn-based, I do believe that the system on the Divinity Original Sin games really made tactical turn based battles interesting. In that game you need to really plan out your moves in order to utilize even the battlefield else your enemy might be the ones to do so.
 

frostwolf3

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While I don't have an idea, I need to post a caution about that. The more twitch heavy you make your battle system, the more likely you will lose the older gamers. For example, I have a condition in my hands that does not let me do active button press battles without pain after 5 - 10 minutes of that, so games that are that way in battle are refunded by me now, no matter how good the rest of the game is, as my hands can't take it anymore. And those who grew up on games are getting older now so this will be more common too.

[move]Game Mechanics Design[/move]
thank you for the heads up i was just wondering on how to make my game more interesting and how to make player fully active in it
and i'm sooo sorry i'm terrible at writing thread thanks for redirecting it
 

bgillisp

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No worries. I posted more further down from that post that might help.

Also be careful if you are going to quote posts, we ask that you do all of that in one post please, which can be hard to read. Use the @ symbol and tag the poster instead, it is easier to read.
 

frostwolf3

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Even without hand/wrist injury you need to be cautious about this because it is in essence reflex dependent, at least the ones I've played. Some people do not have fast reflexes. You will lose them as well.
i'll keep that in mind but just as i said before i just want my player to be fully involved n into my game instead of just hitting 2 buttons

Kes and bgillisp make good points, but on the other hand, maybe the people that don't like that sort of thing or are unable to play those sort of reactionary games are not your target audience. Find your target audience and cater to their wants and needs.

As for doing what you want, moghunter has a pretty cool action input plugin that allows you to input button sequences to chain together attacks, which will make your game more interactive in combat:

https://atelierrgss.wordpress.com/rmv-chain-commands/
omg thank you thank you thank you for both the great hint and the scripts thank uuuuuuu

There is a way to keep the player interested and use turn based battles. After all, I haven't heard anyone complain that Persona's battles are boring, and they use a turn based battle. It's all in how you design it.

Usually one thing I find that keeps players interested though is to keep the animations short. If every attack has an animation as long as FF7's Supernova, then players will start to tune them out. Or if battles are so long that each turn can take 5 - 10 minutes between you and the enemy, players will read a book. I just finished playing Wizardry 8 (again) and I had one fight go 55 minutes due to the sheer size of it (I know as I clocked it) and it wanting to show me every little enemy moving. I spent most of that time reading a book, and joked that fight was like "It's a fight! Bring your friends friends friends friends friends friends friends friends."

Another example: I remember playing Age of Wonders 2 a long time ago, and the time it takes for all of the CPU turns to be done was so long due to it trying to show so much I graded papers while waiting for the CPU turns to finish. And in the end the turns were so long I had all my papers graded by the end of that weekend too.

So basically it comes down to keep it short and don't add needless stuff. If you do that, you can make turn based battles interesting, and don't need active button combos and twitch battles to do.

another interesting factor thank you for sharing it

Plus there is the fact that the more twitch games you play, the more likely you are to develop hand/wrist issues. The issue is something called RSS, Repetitive Stress Syndrome, and it occurs when you overuse a finger (like say to click the A button a lot). Eventually the nerve gets damaged and it starts to act like it hurts even when you don't use it to play a game.

I develeoped it at early as 24. So it doesn't take long of playing twitch or action games either.
well i'm not gonna be using combos like tekken or street fighters, all i wanted is a button press like aiming with keyboard arrows and shooting or allowing pet attack with different buttons but making sure it happens in real time

Its actually easier to make action games that fall to that problem. A lot of action games I've played are more of button mashing or simply press this button at this moment which is actually kinda frustrating.. It keeps you in the battle, yes, but not because the battle itself is engaging but because the system forces you to do so..

Anyway, I think it really boils down to the overall design of the game. You cant just put something like an action based system or a different turn based and expect it to immediately alleviate the "boringness" of battles. Every system in your game should work together in order for it to be truly engaging.

Also, make sure battles need a bit of strategy but never force a single strategy to the player. Super easy battles are boring but battles where there is only one way to win is simply frustrating and doesnt allow the player to be creative.

again i like that,, but for small battles i make sure that another common event runs like in game but lets say i fight a boss or stronger opponent thats when i use the battle processing thats why i wanted it to be engaging

IMHO its good for ABS that plays like old Zelda or something, but for really super action oriented style, I feel like nah. Unless you can really manipulate things to a good degree as opposed to simply using an existing publicly usable script/plugin, I feel like it's just hard to make it work that nicely. Plus 2D kinda limits the kind of "actions" possible as opposed to doing action games on 3D.

For turn-based, I do believe that the system on the Divinity Original Sin games really made tactical turn based battles interesting. In that game you need to really plan out your moves in order to utilize even the battlefield else your enemy might be the ones to do so.
since you opened this subject i was wondering when i first started to learn how to make games i had one objective in mind, i wanted to create a game similar to Romance of the three kingdoms xi ,, i just love the fact that u make characters invade cities improve cities and such thing n i loved the turn base
which engine do u think that can help me better with that kinda game
and which engine would be best for Action games even if its 2d

I suggest a non-time combo battle system.
why is that? i thought timed combat make sure that player is interested and engaged in the game

@bgillisp ohhh thats why i'm soo sorry i didnt know that either
i will from now on
 
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bgillisp

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No worries. Trying to quote without the @ will usually result in triple or worse posting, which we ask you to not do. I megered all of your posts together into one post.
 

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