Is cheeze actually good for games?

Oddball

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Cheeze as in using mechanics in unexpected ways to get further in the game. Maybe you use an ability in an unexpected way and get somewhere unreachable or maybe you stack up a bunch of chairs against a wall so you can scale it and skip an entire quest line. I'll lay out some benifits of cheeze

1. It makes players feel clever. Solving problems in unexpected ways would make the player feel good and they'll enjoy the game more

2. Speedrunners can complete the game in a quicker fashion. Speedrunning is a thing. Cheeze allows replayability for speed runners as they experiment with different ways to shave off a few minuets

3. Players can have their own head cannon on how the story can go

4. It allows for creativity and exploration

Of course, some cheeze can break the game and lessen enjoyment. I'm looking at you feather from super mario world. What are your thoughts on cheeze? how can it help or hurt a game?
 

Black Pagan

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i can see it make a Game with a "Timed Challenge" feel easy. I don't think i would want to play a game with such a Feature in a Regular RPG. However, I can see how this fits into a Rogue-like where you could just skip levels.

Lets say you can unlock a Hidden Door in the Wall that takes you 2 Floors above you and since your Goal is to climb up the Dungeon / Tower, It serves the Purpose. Also, It might be good to have this feature as ways to unlock Secret Rooms or Treasure Rooms, That would make a lot of sense. It can also be implemented in a New Game+ I guess.

I just can't see such a thing being implemented in the Main Game Story-line as it disrupts the Flow of the Game.
 

V_Aero

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My first thought is a little more pessimistique. What if a player never gets the solution by himself, so he eventually looks up by a guide and then thinks "oh okay, I never would have came up with this idea", then he wouldnt feel clever. So be careful when adding cheesy mechanics.
 

Oddball

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I don't think you guys get the point. If there is a secret door, i don't think thats cheeze, its a secret passage. Cheeze is using the games mechanics in unexpective and creative ways to get further in the game, or somewhere unexpected. And @V_Aero if the player can't figure out a creative way to cheeze the game, couldn't they just go on the intended path?
 

V_Aero

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Ah okay, then I got it wrong. I thought you want to enforce the player to solve this puzzle. When you use such mechanics as kind of easter egg then I would say, just go for it!
 

Zreine

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I think it's a good idea, but I won't lie, I would probably be afraid to miss something important by using the "shortcut" to skip a quest line or a level so I probably wouldn't use it. But for discovering a hidden places or to get a easier path to navigate the level I think it would be pretty amazing.
 

TheoAllen

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That depends, sometimes (and most of the time) it makes the game feels dumb than making me feel smart. And I call it exploit. Unless that's how you play the game.
 

Countyoungblood

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You might get better results from your thread if you ask clear questions without including terms like cheese. Your definition is pretty vague and your examples dont seem to relate to much. can you explain your question using plain words?
 

Windows i7

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Depends on the game. In open world games, finding new ways of exploiting can in and of itself add a fun twist to the game.
 

jkweath

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It's fun to watch someone speed-run a game or to just read about unintentional ways to exploit game mechanics. I loved screwing around with the Missingno glitch in the older Pokemon games. I recall watching a Final Fantasy 2(IV) speedrun awhile back where the speedrunner used an exploit that involved going up and down a specific staircase in the dwarf castle 64 times, because after the 65th time the player starts getting warped to different locations.

Cheese mechanics like those are fun because, by the time they've been discovered, it's usually long past that game's prime anyway. Few people actually need to use them to aid in beating the game because they've probably beaten it already and just want to find new and creative ways to play it.

Now if you're talking about intentionally adding cheese mechanics to an RPG, I'd say no thanks. Many cheese mechanics for other games have taken years (over a decade in some cases, like with the playable Master Hand glitch in SSBM), because they were 100% unintentional and never meant to be discovered. Adding a cheese mechanic intentionally defeats the purpose.
 

Tai_MT

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It largely depends on what form that "cheese" takes.

For example, I don't play StarCraft 2 online. Why? Because it's so full of "cheese" mechanics and BS nonsense that don't promote "fair" play and just promote doing things that are "impossible" to defend until someone finds a counter. If you have "cheese" in a multiplayer game and DO NOT immediately patch the crap out of it to remove it, especially in competitive play...

Then, I'm sorry, you've got a broken game I don't want to play. No, there's no good argument for "but X cheese maneuver requires some skill to pull off!". Oh? Does it? Does the game require MORE SKILL or LESS SKILL when you use it? Oh, learning the technique means a game requires less skill to win? Sounds suspiciously like "cheating" to me.

There's a reason I don't play Blizzard games online. There's a reason I don't play Call of Duty online. In fact, these "cheese" moments are why I don't play a great many games online anymore. The outright refusal to patch exploits in these games is good enough reason to never play them again. They turn a game from "fair" to "who can use cheats the best". I mean... what are we even proving at that point? Who can look up how to cheat the best and pull it off the most?

As for in a singleplayer game... Eh, it depends on what it is. If I can cheese passed your plot flag to do something you didn't intend me to do... it hurts nobody but me. And, honestly, I'm probably looking to cheese your singleplayer game in some ways because I tend to find my own thing a bit more enjoyable than whatever scripted thing you've set for me to do. Likewise, I enjoy getting into locations I'm not meant to be in. I hate invisible walls of any kind, in any game, no matter what it is. I also hate doors that exist with no way to get into them. I also hate locations I can see, but never get into. Just let me do something reasonable to get to places you don't expect me to be. If I can't get there without doing something unreasonable, then don't punish me by blocking me with an invisible wall. I would rather see, "there is no more level to walk on" than "invisible wall long before hitting the edge of the world".

As for speedrunning...

Who actually cares about that? It's a thing where cheaters get together to see who can put together the most realistic video of them cheating in order to claim a title nobody cares about but them. No, I don't even mean that they exploit the game programming. No, they just straight up cheat for their records. Everyone who holds a record is probably a cheater. It's not even a "maybe" at this point. I don't even care what website you're using to post speedruns. Everyone in the top 20 on any list is cheating. Is a cheater. Just hasn't gotten caught yet. So... who cares if cheaters are using glitches to pretend to be better at a game than other people? I don't. Speedrunning is a joke.

As for intentionally adding cheese... I dunno. It's not really cheese if it's intentional. You can prepare for players doing it, to some extent, but you can't really call it cheese if you intended for a good chunk of your players to find it and do it.

I dunno. Sometimes, I let players "easymode" my bosses, because... hey... sometimes that's fun. A tough boss kicks you around for a while until you discover that you could've just hit him with Poison and he'd die in five turns. It's not really cheese. But, it does make some bosses easier, despite feeling difficult. Besides, there's nothing wrong with letting a player have a "break" from the game every so often. Not every boss has to be "dark souls" hard. Not every enemy has to murder you when you first encounter it. There's something to be said for occasionally dialing back the difficulty and letting the player actually feel powerful from time to time.

I like designing that into a game, anyway. Let the player have their power fantasy with a boss after accumulating so many stats. Sometimes, it's just more fun that way. It doesn't always have to be a slog.
 

MetalHunter13

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It largely depends on what form that "cheese" takes.

For example, I don't play StarCraft 2 online. Why? Because it's so full of "cheese" mechanics and BS nonsense that don't promote "fair" play and just promote doing things that are "impossible" to defend until someone finds a counter. If you have "cheese" in a multiplayer game and DO NOT immediately patch the crap out of it to remove it, especially in competitive play...

Then, I'm sorry, you've got a broken game I don't want to play. No, there's no good argument for "but X cheese maneuver requires some skill to pull off!". Oh? Does it? Does the game require MORE SKILL or LESS SKILL when you use it? Oh, learning the technique means a game requires less skill to win? Sounds suspiciously like "cheating" to me.
I avoid online games like the plague, partially because of this. This seems to be a major chunk of any remotely competitive gaming.

Back in 2012, I was getting really into the Song of Ice and Fire series. My friends talked me into going to this regular board game event, and I started playing the (overpriced) ASOIAF card game and got really into it because the artwork and the flavor of the game was spot on to the books. Shelled out over $100 to get the "necessities" so I could actually play on the same level as the guys there. Then I started reading online about "1 hit kill" decks, where a player could win the game with their first turn. To me, that kind of defeats the point of playing the game if it's over on turn 1. When I talked to my board gamer friend about it, he just shrugged and went "That's part of the game. People win money in these tournaments." It wasn't long after I sold all my cards and took up fencing.
 

Tai_MT

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@MetalHunter13

See, this thing with "cheese" existing in multiplayer games started with Halo 2, as far as I can tell. A game which had its multiplayer component so botched that several hundred glitches and exploits existed that boosted a lot of VERY UNSKILLED players to the top rank of 50. Most of these players were NEVER banned or punished for using the exploits. The "Meta" became using these exploits in every match.

Which, basically, forced me to make a decision on what kind of video game player I wanted to be. Did I want to be someone who cared so much about winning that he'd use any means necessary to do so... Or, did I want to play a game in a competitive sense and actually match my skill against that of my opponents, even if I never got better at the game?

I decided that the "win" in a multiplayer game isn't where I was having "fun". I liked to win, but winning with ease wasn't "fun" for me. It was boring. Tedious. It wouldn't stop me from rofl-stomping newbs into dust when the game matched them against me. But, they were matches in which I wasn't having any fun.

Now, at the time of Halo 2 and its buggy mess... The industry standard was that cheese should not exist in competitive multiplayer. Especially where a ranking system was involved. It should be patched out anytime you could do so, or players exploiting it should be banned.

But, the game had opened the floodgates, it seemed. Over the years, more and more games have just let "glitches" and "bugs" slide in competitive games. "Modding" is wrong! You can't mod your multiplayer experience to have an Aim-Bot! THAT'S CHEATING! But, using an exploit to fire 3 shots in a single instance to get an instant kill on anyone, no matter where you hit them? Well, THAT'S A TACTIC!

Frankly, it's freakin' silly. I loved StarCraft 1. I played it online quite a lot. I never won a single game. I did learn a lot about how to play it properly and build order and army compositions. I was never good enough to play it competitively in any sense. Frankly, I sucked at it. But, I loved the game. I loved the Lore. I loved the fights. I loved trying to match wits with other people, even if I failed spectacularly.

StarCraft 2 though? Yeah, it's all about the cheese. I don't win in that game either, but I don't feel like it's a "fair" loss because of lack of skill on my part. Almost every single one of my losses has come because someone has used some kind of "cheese strat" to just nullify whatever I do... or destroy me before I can even mount a counter. I got 30 games deep into StarCraft 2 multiplayer, losing to cheese about 22 of those 30 times and losing because of incompetent teammates who hadn't even played the campaign the other 8 times... At that point, I swore off competitive multiplayer games.

I only play Call of Duty online now if my friends ask me to play with them (and they don't all that often). I don't even play Battlefield anymore since the last bastion of "fair play" in that series was Battlefield 4, and it's gone swiftly downhill with glitches and exploits since.

You know what I play online? Cooperative games. Mostly. I play "Dead By Daylight" only when I'm with other friends, because that game is really only fun for me when I play with friends (lots of glitches and exploits and poor hit detection!). I play Stardew Valley multiplayer. Terraria. I used to play a lot of Left4Dead until the online player count for those games plummeted so hard and all you could find matches against were people who were using mods to cheat. I play a lot of "Earth Defense Force" with friends, because the glitches and exploits are more hilarious than detrimental to the game... and there's no competitive component in most of the franchise.

If you have "cheese" in a competitive multiplayer environment, you need to patch it out as quickly as possible. Anything that does not promote "fair play" is not a proper competitive environment at all.

Personally, I'd rather match wits and skill against other players instead of 'who can cheat the best' and "who has the best reflexes".
 

CrowStorm

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In the TTRPG scene and to a slightly lesser degree, RPG gaming in general, cheese (which I've never seen spelled with a z before) has a slightly different meaning. It describes character options that are definitely OP/unbalanced, and sure, "broken", but not in the "glitch through a wall/fly over a level" kind of broken. They still operate on the plane of normal play, their use can't be considered cheating by any stretch of the imagination, they're just, well...OP.

But that's not why I'm here.

3. Players can have their own head cannon on how the story can go
I *wish* I had a head cannon. That would be dope.

I know this may have just been a typo but just in case it wasn't: it's head canon, one n, you only need the extra n if it's shooting cannonballs. (Canonballs, to my knowledge, are sadly not a thing.)
 

TheoAllen

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As someone who got a report that one of my players managed to find out how to cheese my game (and it remained undiscovered for years). This exploit has both good and bad effects. Guess what? personally, as I dev, I decided to keep it that way.

The "feature" was unintended, and it does not break the game (as in fatal error). It would be too much to release a patch for something that only a few people (and I mean, really few) discovered it. And if I released a patch, I need to explain what is the thing I fix. Not to mention that my potential players will get confused if they should patch it or not. My experience tell me that some people who downloaded my game do not even bother to download the patch (they barely care if it has a patch). Just the main game.

The point?
If it hurts the game and many of the players aware, you gotta fix it. If it makes the game fun, it is up to you to keep it that way or actually make it official.
 

Poryg

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Personally I don't like cheese in games. Cheese essentially means easy mode and if I wanted that, why not just open Cheat engine and hack the game instead? Yields the same result, except faster.
Nevertheless, I try to find exploits in games. And then depending on some criteria I may treat these exploits as bad design.
For example, I hate it when these exploits turn out to be that one strategy that carries me through the whole game or when that exploit renders half of your arsenal or even more completely useless. And I hate it even more when it is easy to find. I've seen games where the maker was proud of the skill system, but it turned out using the most basic attacks was better. And not just JRPGs, I've even seen 3rd person 3D RPGs where hand to hand combat proved to be completely superior, because weapons had accuracy drops that just weren't worth it.
I hate exploits of any kind in games that are meant to be challenging. My most recent exploit was in Plants vs. Zombies Hard mode. The game was meant to be hard, but turned out to be a piece of cake thanks to certain OP plants.
 

Riazey

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Honestly if I think it's game-breaking I will patch it out. Skip the entire game? Yeeeaah should probably remove that haha. But if it's skipping to the end of a level or getting past a door with a key? Maybe I'll patch that sometime but it doesn't seem mandatory.

However, the frequency or difficultly of said bug/cheese is another thing entirely though. If it's very common or something you feel directly undermining the integrity of your game (like skipping an entire level just by leaving a quest half finished, or every person in multiplayer using the same deck because it's op) then patch it! I would almost chalk some of that up to poor game balance over the essence of the cheese though.

The great thing is as a developer we get to make these decisions for our games, it's about how YOU feel. The game devs of the spyro remake sat down and watched a speedrunner break their game, it was hilarious! Similarily done and just as entertaining with the crash bandicoot remake devs. They laughed and asked one another "weren't you in charge of that?"

For example if a player found out how to turn themselves into a dragon sprite via a complex scenario and fly over all the ground encounters therefore speeding up their playthrough in that dgn? H-aha yeah TOTALLY working as intended. That's a Feature. *whistles*

And while speaking of speedrunners, personally I have met a fair share here and there, they are mostly great people who thought your game was worth spending hundreds or more hours on to find exploits to speedrun, it's kind of like a compliment! There is a whole category for "legit" playthroughs~ The competetive side can get a bit sticky but that goes without saying for any community, even rpg maker!

Like I mentioned before though, the true beauty of any cheese mechanic is held in the eye of the beholder.
 
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The_switchify

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what kind? swiss? pepper jack? cheddar?
 

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