Is it truly nostalgia or do games really suck now?

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by Leon Kennedy, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. trouble time

    trouble time Bearer of the Word Veteran

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    I agree to this if we're talking AAA games. We do get some good indie turn based RPGs though....actually I realize now I don't even need to make this post considering what site I'm on.
     
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  2. Requiem

    Requiem Veteran Veteran

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    Meh. I don't game like that at all. I look at general principles and I've been pretty much using them since the early 2000s.

    For very specific tactics though, While playing XCOM 1 for example, I can trace a direct beeline to what I did in Jagged Alliance 2. Same thing for Shadowrun.

    In Far Cry 3, there's one ramming tactics I used from Vice City. I very quickly identified the M1A as the optimal weapon and I played it like Operation Flashpoint whenever I had to enter a gunfight... and then I pretty much stuck to this strategy for the rest of the game.

    This is on top of my head because they are the most blatant examples but I'm not gonna go through my 150+ steam list.

    Of course, but as a happy amateur and a consumer, that's my prerogative isn't it?

    Do you buy only games that you are capable of producing? Do you intend to market your games only to RPG Maker devs? Or do you only buy RPG maker games and nothing else?

    Tsk, the only thing comical here is your own lack of self awareness.
    I could refrain from buying your game because it has no mention of Bill Clinton in it, you'd be extremely flustered by the unfairness of it all I'm sure, but ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  3. Archeia

    Archeia Level 99 Demi-fiend Staff Member Developer

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    I really loved RE:7 too and it would be in my top games from last year. But I think what's good about RE:7 is you feel it's still an RE game, Jack = Nemesis from RE3, the mansion and puzzles, that bee room reminiscent of RE1, etc. But it still have the ridiculous RE things in it, such as Ethan reattaching his limbs, getting stabbed in the hands multiple times and still can go around pretty much fine, the baker family themselves are hilarious as hell in RE4-ish style. But at the same time doing something different.

    The shift to first person is pretty big and I was worried it will feel like Outlast or whatever (which I did not enjoy), but RE:7 was fine. The bosses were still hard until the final but it just feels like a very modern RE. If anything the lack of enemy variations was disappointing. I was half expecting molded dogs, sharks, w/e to come out of nowhere.

    I still need to play not a hero (free) dlc with Chris Redfield but have you seen Joe Baker? That dude is like Hard Mode RE:7 it's pretty dang amazing. That dude melees freaking molded. RE does not disappoint on the hilarity meter.
     
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  4. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    @Requiem

    I don't know, I played Far Cry 3 using mostly the bow and sneak killing people with my knife. If I was forced into a more straight up fight, I would use the the P416. I feel as though when a lot of strategies are put before you, you tend to go towards ones you are familiar with, rather than molding your plan to the gameplay before you.

    And talking about ramming, to be honest, short of an RPG hitting you, cars in real life are very effective weapons. What would you want them to do to make them not that would be in any way realistic? (I've never bothered to do this in FC3 though to be honest, as I played mostly stealth)

    And again, you are reducing things as much as possible. Of course with games in similar genres, some tactics will be applicable to both. Not many people want to relearn games whole cloth every time they turn on the system. But even then, much like my shadow of war/mordor example, which uses the same basic combat system as the Arkham games, I played them all using different patterns of moves based on what skills were better in each game.

    Or take Horizon (which honestly the gameplay of which I can't praise enough). I spend more time thinking of how I'll take down a group of enemies usually than actually taking them down. Do I go high risk/high reward and shoot the power cells on the top of the tramplers, causing a stun chain that lets me continue to aoe with more power cell explosions? Or do I triple ice arrow one and then hardpoint it down, trying to take the enemies on 1v1 as much as I can? Do I place some tripline traps to deal with what happens if I miss or to take care of the other tramplers while I take down the first one? Maybe I should use the sling (this is lies, I never use the sling, even though others say it is entirely viable, I find it less fun) to try to freeze several of them at once? Or I can go with corruption arrows and have them beat each other to death, but doing that uses up metalburn, which is a more rare component?

    It feels like you are mistaking your tendency to lean into familiar strategies with a lack of other strategies existing.
     
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  5. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Requiem

    One thing you are forgetting is there is always an optimal tactic in most games, and most games are going to stick to the same things being optimal. Do you want a game that suddenly makes shadows make you easier to hit? Or a game that makes it so that close up weapons always miss, so you are better off getting far away? I somehow don't think so.

    What I think you are confusing is your learning of what is optimal with game design. Games are not going to deviate from that, as it would confuse the player base. So yes, in an RTS you will use similar tactics, as you have *learned* to use those tactics in other games. After all, it would be dumb to just attack with your SCV's in Starcraft wouldn't it? So you build a base. That is going to be true in any RTS that attempts to be semi realistic and follow a logical order.

    Also just be careful. I've seen people who constantly want the next different shiny thing. The problem is...eventually there are NO more different shiny things to find. Usually I see this in relationships not games, and those who do this usually end up hopping relationships every 2 - 3 years in their pursuit of the next shiny thing. You just might have to accept that a lot of what you are feeling is due to getting older, and you've played it now, and that's just a cold hard fact.

    And if you wish to prove me wrong, go out and make a game you consider innovative. See how it does. Maybe you will be the next hit that everyone likes, but usually those who innovate just to innovate flop badly.
     
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  6. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    Actually, on the subject of innovative, I felt FC3's combination of the wallhacks syringe combined with using the camera to tag enemies was fantastic.

    It put a lot of focus on recon, something I think most games didn't prioritize. (And you can see the tagging enemies thing kind of exploded after that as well, being present in many other games).
     
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  7. FleshToDust

    FleshToDust Pixel Beginnings Veteran

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    I think ever since Assassins Creed Unity released and people saw the bugs, peoples view of modern gaming changed. I can youtube "gaming sucks now" and get a ton of videos discussing it. I'd guess around 2013 peoples view of gaming decreased. Producers are legitimately more careless now. They don't care if a game has game breaking bugs, they'll say "release it now, we can patch it later". Another point is that now a lot of games blend together being 1st or 3rd person shooters with rpg elements and open world. There is a very specific formula that places like EA and Ubisoft use and I think it's draining on people because it's easily seen.

    Before RE7 Resident evil was more or less a 3rd person COD as it morphed into what most games were in order to try to reach that COD market. I don't think AAA studios have much to offer anymore and now that EA is saying they wont be doing single player games anymore (because multiplayer online games is where the money is), I can't see that changing.

    I would also point to games like ff15 and mgs5 for examples of this formula being forced into games they don't need to be in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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  8. arekpowalan

    arekpowalan Veteran Veteran

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    Most postmodern games are fine, really. It's the nostalgia titles that bug me. Many long running games are plagued with the developers abusing nostalgic contents (think Classic Sonic and Green Hill Zone in Sonic Force) that implies a blatant attempt at cash grab because they sorely rely on brand name recognition. Other cases, like Final Fantasy, have the developers so obsessed with reinventing the franchise they can stray too far from the core concept of the games and as the result have no clue what they are doing.

    I don't play much AAA games aside from racing games, so I don't have much opinions aside they have ups and downs with their yearly games. For indies, I have personal problems with the contents rather than anything legit. Many of the "meta" games out there are so cynical and skeptical I swear they can give people migraine.
     
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  9. Llareian

    Llareian Jack of All Trades, Master of None Veteran

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    @Touchfuzzy and funny enough, even that [tagging enemies with a recon camera] wasn't innovative. I remember doing that in Rainbow Six Vegas...or was it Vegas 2? Vegas came out in 2006, Vegas 2 in 2008, and Far Cry 3 in 2012...just goes to show, like has been said, it's not about who actually creates the innovation, it's about who does it best.
     
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  10. Requiem

    Requiem Veteran Veteran

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    You read something in my post that just wasn't there.I could have picked a stealth example just as well.
    Stealth, non stealth,... that would have changed nothing.

    Funny, in the army, I don't remember being told cars were very effective weapons.I'm pretty sure they were meant to get from point A to B mainly.

    But hey, that's just me. It's possible that you went through a secret anti-guerilla car ramming jungle course, who knows?

    That's not even really a reproach. I've yet to read a more meaningless slogan.

    Can I suggest the essay "Politics and the English Language" by George Orwell?


    Geez, it`s video games... you're not exactly solving a millennium problem here. If deviating from a set formula confuses today`s player base, I sure am glad am not identifying as one of them anymore.

    there`s no hard and fast rule in RTS that says 'no attacking with workers'.If you can make it work, all the best for you. FYI:

    http://liquipedia.net/starcraft/SCV_Rush

    In warcraft that's what my friends and I did with human peasants.
    We built a town hall near the enemy starting position, turn the peasants into militia and rushed the enemy base.

    It was very effective until the build became public knowledge and started appearing on forums(or I got tired of WC3 I don't remember).

    Why would I? Your post basically boils down to modern games aren't innovative which was my point all along.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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  11. Leon Kennedy

    Leon Kennedy Restaff Novice Restaff

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    Well in modern games defense there is few ideas that haven't already been previously thought of before. I think the last game I played that I really thought was super innovative was undertale and thats why it had such success even without HD graphics and such but even that game had ideas previously done it just had been a while in between which is why it was fresh.

    So yeah my point is it's fairly hard to be innovative now, but not impossible.
     
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  12. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    Cars are very effective weapons, if you don't care about the car. The military wouldn't use it as a strategy because it pretty much requires massive destruction of equipment, and I'm pretty sure it would not fall inside the rules set by the Geneva Convention either. The cost/benefit ratio is not very good. But when you are just going to steal whatever vehicle you want and don't have to pay for it, and there aren't going to be lawyers on you for it, it's an entirely different situation.

    Keep in mind that the best method of doing it in Far Cry is to cover it with explosives first, basically turning it into an IED. Which driving at checkpoints in an explosive vehicle is... very effective in real life, and the reason why they are trained to shoot anyone who is not slowing down. The main difference in Far Cry is that you tend to jump OUT of the vehicle before setting it off.

    But I fail to understand how "Yes, if you hit someone with a car it will severely injure or possibly kill someone" is an indictment of video games. THAT IS HOW HITTING PEOPLE WITH CARS WORKS. One could make the argument that cars are a bit too all terrain in video games, and don't suffer enough damage when hitting things, but that is really a playability situation. If cars were as fragile as they were in real life then they wouldn't be useful in the high speed fun of most games.

    The thing is, you admittedly don't play a lot of modern games, yet you make a blanket judgement on the entire industr, based on... zooming out so far that everything looks the same.

    If you weren't reducing things, you would have to admit that the tactics I use in Shadow of War vs Shadow of Mordor are very different, even when the games are based on the same base mechanics. That the shades of difference in the skill trees and equipment makes different things work better (for instance, the lack of ability to infinitely shadow strike chain in War makes that tactic literally not exist).

    For some reason, you are stuck on this idea that the only differences that are differences are what YOU say is different.

    I'm honestly trying to figure out what you DO consider different, other than tactics required for two completely different genres of games (and to be honest, I can still zoom out far enough to show that for instance, horizon and xcom 2, games in totally different genres, have a strong tendency toward alpha strike tactics).
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  13. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I think you are honestly confusing innovation with being different just to be different, which is a common mistake in the US (I've worked for a phone company that did this, and they went bankrupt in almost no time). I could make an RPG game where you control the game with a DDR pad and nothing else. It would be different, but it wouldn't be good. And yes, I know people have done it with Dark Souls to be silly, but that does not make it a good idea.

    Or, I could make a game where every time you attack, you die. Sure, it would be different, but unless I had a really good reason for it, I would just confuse people who expect, based on what they LEARNED that attack will do damage.

    Honestly, I'm starting to feel like you want games to ignore all that you have learned so far, but the thing is, we don't do that in RL do we? If you went to a job and were told to not apply everything you learned from previous jobs to that job, you would think they are dumb and not work there. Or what if you acted like you knew nothing at all when you started a job (and I mean nothing, like the basics. For example: how to turn on a light switch)? You'd be fired fast. It's the same with games. If you make a game that tells everyone to undo all you learned from all your other games, your game will be marked as stupid and dumb and no one will play it.
     
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  14. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    Also, the worker rush strategy is just an extension of any strategy that involves rushing the enemy with weak, cheap, and fast to produce units before they could get set up, which is a strategy that existed long before WC3.
     
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  15. Requiem

    Requiem Veteran Veteran

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    And I think you are simply confused!

    I would reply...But you are debating with somebody who has made points I haven't made!
    So let that imaginary Requiem reply instead!

    Less feeling... More reading please.

    I was at first not going to dignify this with an answer but I decided to quote you for the sake of posterity instead.

    Note to self:
    "Ramming car so effective Touchy fuzzy suspects car ramming was banned during the signing of the Geneva convention".

    Sure but that's not even a reproach. Because to a large extent that's how I play games. I abstract it away to the most important parts and then I win. The harder and more complex the game, the more important it is to do so.

    A difference in form but not in substance is no difference at all!

    Of course, I wouldn't want to lie to you simply to please you now would I?

    In 2018, I'd say VR is a good bet.That would be something I would shell out $$$ for.

    I wonder what is your next reply going to be?

    "In shadow of mordor, there is 3 new pairs of underwears you can use in comparaison to SoW, if you weren't reducing things as much as possible, you'd be forced to admit this is an innovation"

    Followed by:

    "in 1943, John Von neumann played tic tac toe on punch cards with Project manhattan computers. I can attest VR is just an extention of tic tac toe on punch cards. Same as the 3 underwears in shadow of war.Nothing new under the sun so it's pointless to use innovation as a yardstick"

    Anyway, I spent way too much time on this topic, so you have the closing argument where you emphasize your honesty,your solemn feelings and declare how terribly unfair I am toward the gaming industry. Have a good night.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  16. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    While ramming with cars may not be addressed (it still could be, I haven't read every line myself, but I do know that it has many provisions against a lot of guerrilla style combat, which car ramming tends to be), I imagine that stealing and ramming cars into people would fall under "extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly". To be honest, I would imagine that the main reason it wouldn't be mentioned directly is that ramming with vehicles is a much more modern strategy that you don't see much prior to the 90s, and mostly done by terrorist forces, where it has been very effective in the fact that it is not an easy thing to stop.

    But once again: When people are hit by cars, they tend to be seriously injured or die. Why would you expect this not to be the case in a video game?

    Also, zooming out as far as you can to determine your tactics is the OPPOSITE of what you should do to beat a difficult game. If you aren't engaging in the nuance, you aren't taking advantage of all the weapons at your disposal.

    Sure, I can play, for instance, Fallout 4 as a pure shooter, and just use tactics I've learned from other FPS games, but if I don't use VATS I'm not nearly as effective.

    I can play Horizon Zero Dawn the same as I would play Syphon Filter (both 3rd person action stealth shooters), but that would be ignoring how useful all the other tools they give you are, such as the ropecaster to tie down enemies, the tripcaster for setting traps, the status effects which can cut down the time and resources needed to kill enemies by an insane amount (you can kill a scrapper in the beginning with one arrow if done correctly, or a dozen if you try to play it like just any other game). If I ignore all the nuance and only use strategy based on the most zoomed out view, I am objectively playing the game worse.

    In Shadow of Mordor, the way they horde you in the Bright lord DLC, and the changes to the skills you use, mean that even in the DLC to that game, you can't play it effectively in the same way. Instead, you need to rely on turning enemies to your side mid-fight, rather than just killing them outright. Trying to play it with the same tactics you play the main game with, is suicide.

    The idea that ignoring the differences that make the games play differently, and make different strategies or series of actions more viable, makes you better at the game is severely flawed.

    And honestly VR, from a gameplay perspective, is not innovative. Its flashy, and it has potential to be really interesting from an immersion standpoint, but I haven't seen a VR game that changes the way you play the game itself. (If you want to talk about the 1:1 motion of hands to movement... its a control scheme difference, it doesn't change the strategy or tactics used, which is the definition YOU have made for what is innovative.)
     
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  17. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    Also just as an aside, being that I run the forums, I don't like to step in on conversations in which I am involved, but I suggest once again, that you tone down the jerk behavior, this time, with mod voice.

    If @bgillisp missed the point of what you are saying, then perhaps the issue is that you are communicating it badly, rather than that they are incapable of reading. Perhaps you should explain further rather than being mocking.

    The general rules here are that you can have any argument you want, but treat other people with a modicum of respect.
     
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  18. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    VR may be an innovation yes, but you do need to remember there are portions of the population who cannot play a VR game, either due to bad eyesight (and not all eyesight problems are easily or cheaply correctable. I just had to spend $6000 to fix one such one, and insurance loves to say those are not covered by them making you pay for those completely out of pocket) or motion sickness. So should someone innovate just to say to those people they cannot play a game?

    Though I've yet to hear of an innovative VR game, but I've stayed away from it so far.
     
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  19. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    @bgillisp I've felt the same way about the 3D craze. Being blind in one eye, I can't see stereoscopic 3D, so it is completely lost on me. Though generally, from what I've heard it was never that great anyway.
     
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  20. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Ditto. I've had to skip 3D Movies. Hard to watch those when you wear glasses and have vision that lasik cannot fix. I can either be blind and not see the movie well, or I can see it, but not the 3D part.

    On another note, @Requiem I still want to hear what you would consider different. You've yet to answer that question that I can see (and I'm not going through all your posts to see if I just missed it, I've got a game to make), and we would like to honestly know the answer. Maybe we will even agree we just looked at it differently. Who knows?
     
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