Is it unwise to wait to do develop the battle system until last?

[Tea's Jams]

I plan on having random encounters and plot specific demibosses. I'm about 3 hours into gameplay WITHOUT enounters, and am now wondering if I've made a mistake.

At first I worried if I tried to do both concurrently, I would find myself re-doing the battle/item/weapon/armor mechanics a thousand times. (since I am totally OCD, and it has to be perfect down to the last nano second/pixel.)

What do you guys think? What have you done and what has worked best for you? Why?

I would really appreciate feedback from those more experienced than me... which is pretty much all of you, haha! Thank you so much for your help!

 

[bgillisp]

I would recommend at least a placeholder battle system in the game so you can get a feel for how it looks. You can give all monsters 1 HP and 1 DEF so they fall in one hit, but this way you can at least design who you are fighting and with whom, and how the encounter rate feels and so on. That's what I do when I want to focus on the story for a while. Then, when I wish to fix up the battle system, I go and do that instead.

 

[Tea's Jams]

I would recommend at least a placeholder battle system in the game so you can get a feel for how it looks. You can give all monsters 1 HP and 1 DEF so they fall in one hit, but this way you can at least design who you are fighting and with whom, and how the encounter rate feels and so on. That's what I do when I want to focus on the story for a while. Then, when I wish to fix up the battle system, I go and do that instead.

Hmm, I guess you could say I'm kind of doing that. I place SOME kind of encounter, usually with a very low encounter rate and 1 hp, and the weapons/armor/items are being named, they just have no real stats. I'm glad to hear that you do that, it makes me feel a little less nervous about my approach.

 

[bgillisp]

Right, though it is also why even though you can beat my plot now I'm still working on the game. But this way I know the game will be done as it is...well, done. At least if you don't mind a visual novel (originally).

As for how I did it, what I did was I focused on the damage formula first (I also used this to figure out what the highest and lowest stats I wanted in my game), then skills, then weapons/armor/items when I did work on my battle system. Then I set the encounter rate to about what it should be in the real game, as well as the EXP for all enemies. This allowed be to get a feel for how high stats got in the game, which I then tweaked if needed. Then, I went and fixed up the bosses and random encounters to their real stats (how I did that was I wrote up an excel sheet, noted what the average stats for the player was in an area, including the level, then based the enemies around that. Then it was test, test, test, and test).

It's taken a while, but I'd say I've gotten to where the game is pretty well set with the final stats for 6 of 9 Chapters now.

As for when...I'd say I started with the battle system once I got to Chapter 2, when I hit writers block. I'd take 1 - 2 weeks, add in one part of the battle system, then when that part is done, I continue with the plot. That way I didn't get sick of it either, nor did it slow me down from finishing.

 

[Tea's Jams]

I seriously envy you. Honestly part of the reason I have been leaving that until last is because I really don't look forward to it. I love your excel sheet method though, I will have to remember that.

 

[bgillisp]

Well...if it makes you feel any better I started my game in June 2014. So it's been a process. But, yes, excel is your friend. I used it to list out my weapons by where in the plot you could first find them, which allowed me to figure out how many weapon/armor tiers I need, and so on. But, that took having the plot done/mostly done before I could do anything like that, because until then, I didn't know how many tiers the game would require (I only had an estimate).

 

[Tea's Jams]

June 2014, wow. When I started this project I gave myself 2 yrs as a timeline (about 6 hrs a day) I've been going at it only for about 2 1/2 months. Although right now I'm working on my antagonists battler graphic, and just coloring it in is taking more than my 6 hours for today. It truly is a time consuming process. I really love doing it though.

 

[gstv87]

Adapting an existing plugin is always easier than coming up with your own battle system from scratch.
If you don't know programming, you can fake features into the battle system by using troop events or common events in skills.
If your strong suit is story writing or art, then feature that into the battles.... make battles more narrative, or more spectacular through animations or effects.
as long as the battle features the features (?) that your game is supposed to be about, you're good.
If your game is about story, you don't need complicated mechanics in combat... you just need the encounter to make sense.

I would advice that if you want to make a game about something, that something has to be very specific, that you can sum it up in one sentence.
*That* concept would give you the basis for what you'd have to look for in a maker program, to help you pull that off and make it a part of your game.
"I want to make a shooter!" -> ok... what would you be shooting? can you figure out how to make particles? can the graphic engine handle it? is it a 3D or a 2D game? you can still make it top-down, but you need some function to handle the behaviour of fast-moving objects coming out of a point and going in a straight line until they hit something......, AKA, bullets.

 

[Wavelength]

The best games tell story through their battles, and add gameplay into their story. So while you don't need to develop both concurrently, per se, it's nice to at least plan them concurrently at a very deep, detailed level (not just it sounds good in my head but more like I could document every detail except the numbers). This way, both your battles and your story will inform where the other goes.

That being said, even though the best games feature this kind of story-gameplay interplay, most games don't. A game can be good if it has a good story and a good battle system that feel separated from each other. So if you're not doing this as your livelihood and you tend to really enjoy creating one while shrinking away from the other (it sounds like this is the case), just do it the way that feels comfortable. What this will do is it will allow you to get far enough into your game development that you can't justify dropping it - and you'll get to the point where you need to develop gameplay (do you need a battle system per se? maybe not. but you do need gameplay of some sort if you want to make a game).

At that point it will be a little easier to push yourself through the uncomfortable grind of designing and refining your battles/gameplay. It was the same for me (except in reverse) - I designed most of my gameplay and by that point I felt committed to seeing the project through to completion, so I started the uncomfortable-for-me but necessary task of writing narrative. Or, if your work to that point is demonstrably really good, you might be able to find someone who enjoys making mechanics to join your project, letting you both focus on what you love.

 

[Tea's Jams]

Adapting an existing plugin is always easier than coming up with your own battle system from scratch.
If you don't know programming, you can fake features into the battle system by using troop events or common events in skills.
If your strong suit is story writing or art, then feature that into the battles.... make battles more narrative, or more spectacular through animations or effects.
as long as the battle features the features (?) that your game is supposed to be about, you're good.
If your game is about story, you don't need complicated mechanics in combat... you just need the encounter to make sense.

I would advice that if you want to make a game about something, that something has to be very specific, that you can sum it up in one sentence.
*That* concept would give you the basis for what you'd have to look for in a maker program, to help you pull that off and make it a part of your game.
"I want to make a shooter!" -> ok... what would you be shooting? can you figure out how to make particles? can the graphic engine handle it? is it a 3D or a 2D game? you can still make it top-down, but you need some function to handle the behaviour of fast-moving objects coming out of a point and going in a straight line until they hit something......, AKA, bullets.

Oh, I will definitely be using at least one plugin for the battle system, likely several. I've been keeping an eye on what other people are doing and am bordering on a Chrono Trigger style turn based battle system. Thank you very much for your input.

The best games tell story through their battles, and add gameplay into their story. So while you don't need to develop both concurrently, per se, it's nice to at least plan them concurrently at a very deep, detailed level (not just it sounds good in my head but more like I could document every detail except the numbers). This way, both your battles and your story will inform where the other goes.

That being said, even though the best games feature this kind of story-gameplay interplay, most games don't. A game can be good if it has a good story and a good battle system that feel separated from each other. So if you're not doing this as your livelihood and you tend to really enjoy creating one while shrinking away from the other (it sounds like this is the case), just do it the way that feels comfortable. What this will do is it will allow you to get far enough into your game development that you can't justify dropping it - and you'll get to the point where you need to develop gameplay (do you need a battle system per se? maybe not. but you do need gameplay of some sort if you want to make a game).

At that point it will be a little easier to push yourself through the uncomfortable grind of designing and refining your battles/gameplay. It was the same for me (except in reverse) - I designed most of my gameplay and by that point I felt committed to seeing the project through to completion, so I started the uncomfortable-for-me but necessary task of writing narrative. Or, if your work to that point is demonstrably really good, you might be able to find someone who enjoys making mechanics to join your project, letting you both focus on what you love.

That's a very good point. I know I want the most meaningful battles to be with the demi-bosses and the antagonist (he show's up regularly but can't be beaten until the end) So, I really hope to make the other encounters entirely utilitarian and not tiresomely so. You know, fight real fast and easy, get the EXP and money you need. (I am NOT a fan of grinding). While I loath the idea of actuating this, I adore eventing, so maybe it won't be so bad, haha! Thank you so much for your input.

 

[Basileus]

You may want to consider not having random encounters. Games like Chrono Trigger have the monsters walking around on the map and many can even be avoided if the player doesn't get too close. Triggering combat by Events on the map also lets you add a little more detail to your setting since you can have the monsters doing stuff on screen before they attack the player.

If you have a focus on narrative, then I would highly recommend at least planning out your combat system early on. If you make even 1 mechanic that fits the overall theme/message of the story it can make for a much, much richer experience. If your story is about a plucky underdog just trying to survive then it only makes sense that each combat encounter would need to be hard or at least nail-bitingly close a lot of the time to impart that tension and sense of fear. If your story is about an experienced mercenary that might be a bit too good at killing you can show this by making encounters easy and have the monsters try to run away since your character is scarier than they are. The absolute strongest point of RPG narratives is that the player can experience the main characters changing over the course of their adventure, and the gameplay can truly immerse the player in the character's story arc if done well.

Try to figure out what your protagonist's plot arc is, the one big change that needs to happen for them to be able to overcome their obstacles and defeat the antagonist. Then try to find even a single mechanic that can in some way reflect the character's starting flaws and which can be overcome over the course of the story as the character develops. A traditionally easy example is a physically weak character becoming strong and brave, which is reflected by being weak at the start and having trouble against Lv. 1 enemies alone and gaining stats and skills until they can battle dragons alone by the end. Players remember that wimpy kid from the opening and if you develop them right in the story bits will be cheering him on along the way as he grows to take on massive boss creatures. A more nuanced version can have a mechanic that represents the character's personality or past or plot-based abilities...or if you're daring you can even make negative mechanics that the player needs to work around at the start but which can be overcome by skills the character learns later in the story.

I think you can have a lot of fun with this because it's still got nothing at all to do with tedious numbers and balancing and everything to do with your narrative and clever use of Eventing.

 

[Tea's Jams]

Try to figure out what your protagonist's plot arc is, the one big change that needs to happen for them to be able to overcome their obstacles and defeat the antagonist.

This is a great point, thank you. You made me think about how I intend for the hero to only be able to beat the antagonist with certain plot based skills. (kind of like Magus and the Masamune in Chrono Trigger) So stats become largely insignificant. This is really food for thought.

 

[Wavelength]

This is a great point, thank you. You made me think about how I intend for the hero to only be able to beat the antagonist with certain plot based skills. (kind of like Magus and the Masamune in Chrono Trigger) So stats become largely insignificant. This is really food for thought.

((Bolding mine))

Are you absolutely sure you want to do this? It's important for a player to feel like she helped her protagonist overcome his enemies, not that the designer made the protagonist overcome his enemies. Piles of stats are not that interesting, but at least they are something the player can generally feel like she earned. Useful skills (where there are actual, interesting, situational decisions for the player to make about what skills to use), sidequest perks, etc., are even better ways to do it. And @Basileus can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she was talking about the importance of making the "feel" of at least one mechanic fit the feel of the plot - she was not saying that the plot should subsume the mechanics entirely and turn ostensibly-important battles into "cutscenes" where you happen to press a few buttons on battle menus.

 

[Tea's Jams]

((Bolding mine))

Are you absolutely sure you want to do this? It's important for a player to feel like she helped her protagonist overcome his enemies, not that the designer made the protagonist overcome his enemies. Piles of stats are not that interesting, but at least they are something the player can generally feel like she earned. Useful skills (where there are actual, interesting, situational decisions for the player to make about what skills to use), sidequest perks, etc., are even better ways to do it. And @Basileus can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she was talking about the importance of making the "feel" of at least one mechanic fit the feel of the plot - she was not saying that the plot should subsume the mechanics entirely and turn ostensibly-important battles into "cutscenes" where you happen to press a few buttons on battle menus.

I agree with your point, maybe I was a bit crude in my wording. There will be stats. what I am shooting for though is not having to grind for them (what I meant by insignificant) The player will also have to work to achieve the skills needed to defeat the antagonist. They won't be handed to them on a silver cut scene platter.

 

[gstv87]

a suggestion about leveling and experience-distributing:
First, make up your mind about how much experience will one single enemy be worth, regardless of strength. Basically make XP a factor of HP, or general strength overall (you work out the formula)
Regardless of any generic enemy you design, battles will always be worth [NumEnemies x IndividualExp]
With that in mind, decide if you're going to split the XP evenly across the party, or have some assimetric distribution (say, last hit or total damage done earns a higher percentage of XP).
That will give your a base figure for <how much XP, tops, can be earned out of a given battle>
Then, it's decision time:
-Is the XP earned by character enough to bridge the XP gap to the next level? (Does the character level up by that victory?)
-How many battles is it worth putting the player through before it becomes grindy? (Do you have to multiply the XP gain to make it enough to bridge the gap?)
-How many enemies do you have in the roster to make <as many battles as required> not-repetitive? (How good are you at designing new concepts?)

you don't need to level up all the way to 99.

 

[Tea's Jams]

@gstv87 Thank you for the tips!! I need all the help I can get, haha. I really appreciate it.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Since everyone else is giving fantastic answers, I wanted to focus on these points you said;

I would find myself re-doing the battle/item/weapon/armor mechanics a thousand times. (since I am totally OCD, and it has to be perfect down to the last nano second/pixel.)

Spreadsheets (excel) and documents (word) are your friend. I've done things like far too often. Put all your fiddling outside the database so you don't find yourself undoing work you've done in case you do something like move a skill around, change what states exist, etc. It's a huge help in the long run.

You know, fight real fast and easy, get the EXP and money you need. (I am NOT a fan of grinding).

I use FFMQ's "two turn" rule, where every random encounter can be beaten in two turns max without hurting long term resources much if you can learn how and never run from a fight. Most good jrpgs (from my perspective) do this, making it so you'll never grind if you don't want to.

 

[Frogboy]

I tried to do story first and game mechanics second. I ended up scrapping my entire story because it didn't fit. Hopefully you don't run into the same issue.

 

[kirbwarrior]

I tried to do story first and game mechanics second. I ended up scrapping my entire story because it didn't fit. Hopefully you don't run into the same issue.

Similar thing on my end, I'm not entirely certain how to do only one side of the game at a time.

 

[Tea's Jams]

I tried to do story first and game mechanics second. I ended up scrapping my entire story because it didn't fit. Hopefully you don't run into the same issue.

Similar thing on my end, I'm not entirely certain how to do only one side of the game at a time.

...Whoa. I hope I don't have this problem!