Is it unwise to wait to do develop the battle system until last?

[Tea's Jams]

Since everyone else is giving fantastic answers, I wanted to focus on these points you said;

Spreadsheets (excel) and documents (word) are your friend. I've done things like far too often. Put all your fiddling outside the database so you don't find yourself undoing work you've done in case you do something like move a skill around, change what states exist, etc. It's a huge help in the long run.

I use FFMQ's "two turn" rule, where every random encounter can be beaten in two turns max without hurting long term resources much if you can learn how and never run from a fight. Most good jrpgs (from my perspective) do this, making it so you'll never grind if you don't want to.

I am really liking the excel recommendations, I am definitely going to implement this! (I love excel spreadsheets anyway! )

 

[Frogboy]

I didn't get all that far, thankfully. Of course, a big reason for this was that when I shifted over to developing the overall game mechanics that I had in mind, I kept getting stuck. I had to make a choice: change my storyline or change my mechanics.

Since I'm new to RPG Maker, I felt it best to simplify the story so that I could get a much better understanding of all the crunch that the engine has to offer. When I finish this project, I can design something that can both utilize what I'm learning now while designing a much more in-depth story arc.

You sound like you're beyond the point of no return so I don't foresee you scrapping your storyline. You might have boundaries when it comes to the game mechanics, though. Depending on how how long you've been working with RPG Maker, you might already be subconsciously designing your maps and story and such to fit.

 

[Basileus]

And @Basileus can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she was talking about the importance of making the "feel" of at least one mechanic fit the feel of the plot - she was not saying that the plot should subsume the mechanics entirely and turn ostensibly-important battles into "cutscenes" where you happen to press a few buttons on battle menus.

Your interpretation is correct

I probably should have used an example or two. What I was trying to say is that in a video game it is important to blend the gameplay and the plot, they can't just be two separate entities that alternate turns in the spotlight. If you do not integrate elements of the narrative, characterization, and the overall themes you are going for into the gameplay side in some way the player will probably feel like there is little connection between game segments and story/cutscene segments.

At least for me, I find it easiest to plan the combat system and the characters from the start together. Having a great idea for a hero and villain means nothing if you can't use the medium of gameplay to express their traits. I would consider it "Ground-up" development to think of a few fun mechanics and center characters and story arcs around them, then build from there to determine the message these characters' stories can tell and figure out an overall plot that can make it happen. It's not my specialty, but the alternative is "Top-down" development where you start with characters and a plot and work out relevant mechanics and gameplay from there. The reason I dislike "Top-down" is because you can't know at the start if you can find satisfying mechanics or if you will run into issues implementing them, so I like to have the game mechanically sound from the start and then do the narrative fluff work from there.

I think my favorite example of narrative gameplay still comes from Final Fantasy IV:

Cecil, our main protagonist, starts out as a Dark Knight. He's been working for the King, who he wants to make proud since the King took him in and raised him like his own son, but he's really starting to be affected by the unethical things he's been asked to do recently. Narratively, this is shown in the opening cutscene and his interactions with his friend Cid and his girlfriend Rose. Mechanically, this is shown with his class special ability "Darkness". Darkness is absolutely amazing. It deals damage to all enemies on the field, enough to clear most encounters early game, at the cost of some health. It's fun to use and also symbolizes the Dark Knight class as gaining incredible power but at a price. It's very likely for the player to be somewhat reliant on this skill early game, but the game makes it clear that the Dark Knight's power cannot defeat the antagonist Golbez or his fiends. In order to do so Cecil and company must travel to Mount Ordeals to face his inner demons and class change. This segment shows how utterly Cecil has screwed himself by his choices up to this point entirely through gameplay. Golbez knew that Cecil would go to Mount Ordeals and has the entire area littered with undead, which are resistant to Dark element, making Cecil's dark swords and Darkness skill worthless. It's completely impossible to make it up the mountain with just Cecil, so the player is forced to rely on the other members of the party just like Cecil is in the narrative. This reaches a climax with the trail at the top of the mountain where Cecil needs to face his own shadow. This battle is brilliant because Shadow!Cecil spams Darkness every turn, so if the player tries to use Darkness as well they will die and if the player tries to attack they will eat too much damage and die. The only way to win is actually to not fight at all - by using the "Guard" command every turn the player takes reduced damage from the enemy's Darkness and Shadow!Cecil will kill himself before Cecil runs out of health...so long as he gives up on attacking and just defends. This battle shows the self-destructiveness of Cecil's previous path in both narrative and gameplay at the same time. And for learning the value of his companions and the importance to protecting others instead of mindless attacking he is granted the Paladin class, which not only has white magic to do some backup healing but also has the class skill "Cover" which lets Cecil jump in front of his allies occasionally to take damage for them, symbolizing his change of heart and giving the player a new way to protect their squishy backline.

Rydia is a more short-term case, but also very well done in story. Rydia has access to both black magic and white magic, but is incredibly weak at the start of the game because she does not have access to "Fire" the first tier Fire element spell and also the first spell black mages learn. Narratively, this symbolizes Rydia's fear of fire caused by her village being horribly burned to the ground with all of her loved ones killed...because of Cecil blindly following the King's orders. Mechanically, this also provides a means to almost require the player to spam Darkness to help level up Rydia until she learns "Ice" and can start really contributing to battles. Starting Rydia off this way makes her especially vulnerable so the player is likely to want to use Darkness to protect her in battle, just like Cecil would want to do since his guilt toward accidentally killing her mother and burning her village is what prompted him to take action and really begin his arc. This creates a gameplay-narrative link between the player and Cecil as the player will likely use this to justify relying on Darkness just as Cecil does in-story. Rydia overcoming her fear of fire and learning the "Fire" spell in a cutscene to help Cecil and Rose is also an excellent moment that many players remember and is only possible by deviating from the standard black mage spell pattern in a way that suited the narrative.

Kain is an even lesser case, but still worth mentioning. Being adopted by the King along with Cecil and serving as a soldier alongside him, one would expect Kain and Cecil to get along great. This is far from the truth. Unlike Cecil, Kain chose to not become a Dark Knight like the King wanted and instead became a Dragoon to follow his biological father's path...and he's been paying for it ever since. The King clearly favors Cecil over Kain and to make things even worse Kain is in love with Rose...but she ended up dating Cecil, so suffice to say he is immensely jealous and resentful of Cecil. Narratively, this is a massive plot point and comes up a lot as Kain alternates between ally and antagonist as the villains play his feelings like a fiddle. Mechanically, this is only sort of touched on, but it's important that Kain and Cecil have different skillsets and this causes Cecil to be more powerful at the start of the game as Cecil's "Darkness" skill is more powerful than Kain's "Jump" skill because Jump can only hit one enemy and takes a full turn to charge before the hit while Darkness is instant damage. The Jump skill does not really have anything to do with Kain's character by itself, but the fact that there is another mechanic that Kain chose for sentimental reasons is a major driving force in the plot so just having the mechanic at all enables narrative.

There are a bunch of other examples, but FFIV is a great game and an early JRPG that showed how to do this right using mechanics that RPG Maker can easily emulate.

 

[Tea's Jams]

Cecil needs to face his own shadow. This battle is brilliant because Shadow!Cecil spams Darkness every turn, so if the player tries to use Darkness as well they will die and if the player tries to attack they will eat too much damage and die. The only way to win is actually to not fight at all - by using the "Guard" command every turn the player takes reduced damage from the enemy's Darkness and Shadow!Cecil will kill himself before Cecil runs out of health...so long as he gives up on attacking and just defends. This battle shows the self-destructiveness of Cecil's previous path in both narrative and gameplay at the same time. And for learning the value of his companions and the importance to protecting others instead of mindless attacking he is granted the Paladin class, which not only has white magic to do some backup healing but also has the class skill "Cover" which lets Cecil jump in front of his allies occasionally to take damage for them, symbolizing his change of heart and giving the player a new way to protect their squishy backline.

Yes! I played this ages ago 20+yrs, I didn't remember any of it, haha. Thank you for providing these examples, I appreciate it VERY much!

I was on the fence as to whether to post a topic asking this question, but I am super glad I did. The input I am getting from all you wonderful people is worth it's weight in gold. Thank you again.

 

[fireflyege]

Wait, 2 years for a game? Making a game does not take that long. Mapping is a problem but other than that is does take 1 or 2 month at best, and I am talking about games that have quality in both the story and battle system.

Oh and here is the order I use:

-Story (General)
-Battle System
-Story (In Detail)

 

[bgillisp]

Uh...no, I disagree. You can't do a quality story in 1 - 2 months. It takes longer than that to write out the first draft for most stories. Look at how long Harry Potter took between books, and that was a book, not a game.

 

[fireflyege]

Oh well it depends on how creative you are.

 

[bgillisp]

All I'm going to say then is by your reasoning, I eagerly await your game with a quality story to be released before the end of this year. After all, it doesn't take that long, as you just said.

And you do know you just called JK Rowling uncreative too, right?

 

[Tea's Jams]

@fireflyege + @bgillisp

I have to say I agree with bgillisp. If you added that you developed your game in two months in your selling points, I wouldn't play it if you paid me. (but that's just me) On the other hand, I hope bgillisp asks for playtesters when his game is finished because just the length of time and care he spent on it is extremely appealing to me.

 

[fireflyege]

@bgillisp I wish I developed my game in 2 months to be honest, but no my story alone took 4 years but making the database is kinda easy but making unique things take some time. I think you will find what you are waiting in a matter of time.

@just1witness well that is bad for you, I play every game I can find.

I do not think Rowling is not uncreative by the way. It is just that Rowling is not the most creative person in the world.

 

[bgillisp]

That makes more sense. I was just concerned as usually a game made in 2 months time is either 1: An entry for a contest (there used to be a place where they would run bi-yearly contents where you had 3 - 6 weeks to make your game), or 2: A game slapped together in a hurry to make a few $$$ on steam. And I say this having made a game in a week when I was 12 (For the record, it was bad. Really bad. I'm just grateful that abomination is stuck on some 5.25 inch floppies in a dumpster somewhere).

 

[Tea's Jams]

@fireflyege Yeah, sometimes I feel like I want to do that. But I have a ridiculous amount of responsibilities, and I mean RIDICULOUS...., so, no time, haha.

I have to be VERY choosy.

And if your ONLY talking eventing, then yeah, 2 months seems legit. When you factor in story development/graphics/customization ext... it should take a lot longer IMO.

 

[fireflyege]

Well I am planning to make my game non-commercial. At least chapter 1 will be non-commercial. My only aim is getting as many compliments as possible.

I think you will like what you see when I finish the game.