Is mouse for movement important?

[estriole]

Except I use the mouse with my left hand but am very comfortable using the arrow keys with my right so no, that option doesn't suit me. I would have thought many players would find WASD more awkward for tricky movement.

forget the left handed people .

And not all keyboards have keys in the same place. So WASD would be useless to people in certain countries. If you're going to allow it, best to allow user-customization - let them completely choose what they want to use.

agree with this then. .

 

[hian]

Actually no, shaz, that's a ridiculous argument. Wasd is wasd world over. And even if you find some strange personalized Arabian keyboard that had a different set of symbols on the keys, it would still be the keys in the corresponding place as the wasd keys on a standard keyboard.

I have never ever heard of wasd being broken due to foreign keyboards. When you consider that the vast majority of action oriented pc games come with wasd by default, it should be pretty obvious what the state of the market is.

And, ksjp17, you might be using your mouse with the left hand, but the vast majority are not. Hasn't everyone been talking about trends, target audiences, and commercial games? Why is it suddenly the other way around when you're the exception?

(The same question goes to shaz btw in relation to keyboards.)

Anyways, I agree that the best thing is to have open control customization options in games. People should be able to decide themselves.

That being said, I think people are conflating some issues here.

People talk about how many gamers prefer mouse etc, but seriously, what's the evidence for this?

Consider that the vast majority of modern pc games etc, wouldn't be playable without mouse.

Naturally, in light of that, people are going to say they prefer mouse, because when they imagine the opposite, they're thinking about how contrived it would be to play these kinds of games without mouse, and about ****ty console ports like MGS2 that didn't support mouse, and had horrible controls.

This isn't applicable to RPGmaker games though. If anything they're likely to be lumped together with SNES emulator gaming experiences and games like cave story etc, non of which, as far as I know, have(or need for that matter) mouse support.

I don't think the majority of people who'd be willing to play a 2d retro RPG to begin with, would care much about mouse support.

The people who would care about it to the extent that they wouldn't play a game without mouse-support, are probably not in the rpgmaker game target audience in either case.

The only reason I can see to add mouse-support, is to please daft publishing website demands, or if you're making a game so drastically different from the standard RPGmaker image, that you manage to shake off the RPGmaker feel altogether - like a point and click adventure game with custom graphics etc.

As is however, adding mouse-support to an RPGmaker game, seems about as useful as adding mouse-support to super Mario, or FF6 on a SNES emulator.

 

[kerbonklin]

Mouse support is of course not needed, but it can be nice to have for menu/dialogue navigation and input. We are living in the future, after all.

Some people like it, some people don't use it. If you can add it, then by all means do so.

However basic movements should really be left to Arrow Keys or WSAD, because path-finding most of the time is not fully reliable.

 

[MasterLagger]

I would only use mouse-support if I made a few interactive puzzles (Entering a code on a keypad, examining an object, etc), but it wouldn't be a big deal. More like an occasional gimmick to make things less repetitive.

As for using the mouse for regular gameplay... I can't see it being used properly in a RPG style game.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I think the thing is that when people realize that you can click menus with the mouse and see the mouse on the map, they will try to move with the mouse too...


I myself have no problem with the mouse only usable for menus though... I kind of hate the mouse actually for some personal reason...


though if ur planning to implement the mouse only for menus, make sure not to show the mouse on the map, coz there's no point in that...


PS: Most kids that I've seen playing Aveyond games uses mouse...

 

[Shaz]

And, ksjp17, you might be using your mouse with the left hand, but the vast majority are not. Hasn't everyone been talking about trends, target audiences, and commercial games? Why is it suddenly the other way around when you're the exception?


(The same question goes to shaz btw in relation to keyboards.)

We are not talking about trends - we are talking about making games acceptable to the largest number of people within your target audience. Why would anybody EVER want to add "right-handed people" as a target demographic?

People talk about how many gamers prefer mouse etc, but seriously, what's the evidence for this?

That would be large game portals who regularly do studies with their customers, who will not accept games if they don't have mouse support. YOU may not care about that, but those of us who want to sell our games on those portals care about it a great deal.

I don't think the majority of people who'd be willing to play a 2d retro RPG to begin with, would care much about mouse support.

Now YOU'RE the one projecting your own preferences on the wider community, assuming what THEY want is the same as what YOU want.

The people who would care about it to the extent that they wouldn't play a game without mouse-support, are probably not in the rpgmaker game target audience in either case.

It's not just people who wouldn't play without mouse support. It's people who WILL play, but find it difficult because there's no mouse support. And about people who read the reviews of those who play and find it difficult, and make their decision based on what someone else has said. You do things well, some people will notice, and SOME will say so. You do things badly (or so that someone considers it inconvenient) and a lot more people will notice AND complain about it.

 

[hian]

You're so off your mark here. Stop projecting. I readily admitted that the best approach is a fully customizable approach.

The problem is that several people on this thread argued as if it wasn't worthwhile making games accessible based on preference, while doing the very same thing in the next breath.

It's one thing to argue that it's good to have a wholesome approach that includes everybody, and another entirely to argue as if one set up is better than another because it includes you specifically, when you admittedly, are a part of a minority.

You were dismissing wasd based on the fact that one user is left handed and that some keyboards might have different setups, and that is stupid.

As for studies made by portals - argument from authority is a fallacy. I clearly argued why I think studies like that could be a bad standard, and unless you can provide me with studies so we can actually look at their methodology, I have no reason to assume that take is correctly - especially when the vast majority of people I know who play games of the sort that is made in RPGmaker, use and prefer keyboard or controllers.

I am not projecting anything - I qualified my sentence with "I think..." and provided several argument for why I think so - non which you have addressed with anything but empty assertions.

The real question is, again, who exactly would walk into a SNES era game, or a modern game made with basically the same framework, expecting mouse-support? Would mouse-support make the game more accessible?

So please tell me, how does mouse control add anything to the average rpgmaker game? How is it more difficult to play with a keyboard?

The sad fact is that I made it very clear that if you care about having support from a sponsor site that demands mouse support - then that is a reason to add it.

You argue as if I didn't.

I suggest you take a chill pill, and reread my post.

If you can't handle criticism without taking it personally to the extent that start strawmanning me, then I think this will be the end of our communication.

Good day.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

especially when the vast majority of people I know who play games of the sort that is made in RPGmaker, use and prefer keyboard or controllers.

my friends too... and me, since I personally hate the mouse to a certain degree because using it for prolonged periods make my hand ache...


though that mouse thing is more about people who MIGHT play your RM game... since I think we will agree that people used to playing RM games won't really find lack of mouse support as a super bad thing... so mouse or no mouse, these people will readily play your game...


just think of it like this:


Without mouse support: Player base => RPG Maker and RPG fans


With mouse support: Player base => Above + Possibly the casual gamers that are used to playing with mouse


now once you get them following you, it might be easier to make them play non-mouse support games...


Plus having it doesn't really put much of a set back to your RM game, so if you can add it and possibly increase your player base, why not?

 

[Omnimental]

Personally, mouse controlled movement in an RM game is lackluster, and occasionally an outright negative.  I've yet to play one where mouse movement felt natural, and I feel like it almost breaks my immersion in the world to constantly see this omnipresent cursor hovering over the world.  I mean, given the right setup I could see it working, but for the most part it just seems like a major distraction.  I understand that a lot of game portals require mouse control, but most of them don't exactly focus on catering to the retro JRPG crowd that would be potentially drawn to an RM game.

Either way, if mouse control is added, PLEASE don't just tack it on.  Treat it like every other mechanic in your game should be treated: properly integrated and tested.  Changing the input style of a game drastically changes how the game optimally operates.

 

[Helladen]

I like being able to move with a mouse and using keyboard for other inputs. Although, I am a hardcore gamer, so I am not the person you should be targeting. Since, essentially using a mouse to control everything is inefficient, but it is for people who aren't power users.

RPG Maker games in general are casual games, so you want to target casual players - go with mouse support and follow what Shaz said by having full support for mouse.

 

[Necromus]

I think you all seem to misunderstand Shaz, and some folks here are getting pretty heated up over nothing.

@hian, while I agree with you, about mouse support not really bringing much improvement to the table, Shaz is not wrong either.

In my opinion, mouse support for most RPG Maker games is pointless, even clunky.

It feels a lot more fluid, to play with the keyboard, and especially with a controller.

That however, does not change what Shaz is saying, if you want to sell your RPG Maker games, you will have to adapt.

Even if those games (and most seem to be, from what I've seen) are really similar to old JRPGs in terms of design, layout and the like, IF the game portals selling those games expect their games to have mouse support, then your game needs to have mouse support too.

Those surveys on those sites, even if seemingly stupid to what I would call the usual retro RPG player, say that mouse support is wanted/liked/needed you name it, then thats that, simple as that.

Non commercial games and commercial games are a very different animal in that context.

 

[Shaz]

Holy cow @hian, are you sure YOU'RE not the one who needs to take a chill pill? I didn't come in here calling you "way off the mark" and saying your ideas are ridiculous. May I ask what experience you base your comments on? How many games have you completed? How many do you currently have being distributed by portals? My comments are based on experience. You don't have to LIKE what I'm saying, but facts are facts.


IF your target audience doesn't care for mouse support, don't add it. If they do, you should consider it. It's as easy as that.

 

[cabfe]

Actually no, shaz, that's a ridiculous argument. Wasd is wasd world over. And even if you find some strange personalized Arabian keyboard that had a different set of symbols on the keys, it would still be the keys in the corresponding place as the wasd keys on a standard keyboard.

I have never ever heard of wasd being broken due to foreign keyboards. When you consider that the vast majority of action oriented pc games come with wasd by default, it should be pretty obvious what the state of the market is.

(...)

As is however, adding mouse-support to an RPGmaker game, seems about as useful as adding mouse-support to super Mario, or FF6 on a SNES emulator.

I respectfully disagree.

In France, we have 'azerty' keyboards, not 'qwerty'.

For ALL the games that use the WASD control scheme, I have to re-bind the W and the A with my Z and Q.

If I don't, it will make me move forward by pressing your qwerty's Z key (which is W for me)... awkward to say the least. Unplayable most of the time.

There's a reason we have the possibility the re-bind the keys and are upset when we cannot.

Unless the key position is coded and not the letter itself, it won't work on foreign keyboards.

About the mouse support: it IS useful even for a RPG Maker game. It just depends on the type of game it is.

I discovered RPG Maker games while playing To the Moon. It allows keyboard and mouse support and I found it natural to play it with my mouse, considering it is more of an adventure game.

I did the same for my own game, Bleeding Moons. You can play with both controllers and no-one said to me that mouse support was completely useless. On the contrary, one of my tester (not used to the RPG Maker games) was relieved to be able to use his mouse.

 

[amerk]

The simple solution:

If you don't want to add mouse support, find a portal that doesn't force you to include it or create your own site to host and sell your game on. If there is a portal you hope to be on, then you have to abide by their terms, or look somewhere else. Every portal has their own rules. If you don't agree to those rules, they don't have to accept your game.

 

[Helladen]

I respectfully disagree.

Everyone is right in their own niche, best thing to do is to have arrow keys, WASD, and mouse support. Doesn't matter if your niche only uses a mouse, you want to keep your options open for new people to play your games. There's always the approach of having options to disable certain controls if they become a nuisance.

 

[AwesomeCool]

Everyone is right in their own niche, best thing to do is to have arrow keys, WASD, and mouse support. Doesn't matter if your niche only uses a mouse, you want to keep your options open for new people to play your games. There's always the approach of having options to disable certain controls if they become a nuisance.

Bingo.  As a developer, one has to think what the audience thinks first, then them self.  A game can be great to oneself and hated by the audience if all you think about is what you want.

 

[Galenmereth]

Bingo.  As a developer, one has to think what the audience thinks first, then them self.  A game can be great to oneself and hated by the audience if all you think about is what you want.

If you're going for mass appeal, maybe. But even then; Does Diablo have WASD support? No. I'm sure they could implement it - especially now that they've got Diablo 3 on consoles using controllers for input - but it wouldn't work with the gameplay using the keyboard for movement. Or so the designers thought, and I think they're right.

Sometimes it's good to support all the possible control schemes users might have; other times it's not. To say that "as a developer, one has to think what the audience thinks first" isn't true for every game. Actually, it's probably the wrong mentality for most works of passion. I'll go and say it right here: Mass appeal isn't necessarily the best route to take when you're creating a game.

 

[AwesomeCool]

If you're going for mass appeal, maybe. But even then; Does Diablo have WASD support? No. I'm sure they could implement it - especially now that they've got Diablo 3 on consoles using controllers for input - but it wouldn't work with the gameplay using the keyboard for movement. Or so the designers thought, and I think they're right.

Sometimes it's good to support all the possible control schemes users might have; other times it's not. To say that "as a developer, one has to think what the audience thinks first" isn't true for every game. Actually, it's probably the wrong mentality for most works of passion. I'll go and say it right here: Mass appeal isn't necessarily the best route to take when you're creating a game.

The reason Diablo 3 does not have WASD support is that nobody wants it included, really.  If half of Diablo players would not buy/like the game without it, then it would probably be included.  I personally think that not making your game for your audience first, is selfish (in most circumstances).  Diablo 3 is an excellent example of this with the auction house system they include despite the players crying that they didn't want it. Now they are removing the feature after losing a considerable amount of concurrent players since launch.

Of course, if we are talking about the story of the game then yes, your opinion on it supersedes the audience.  But putting yourself in the audiences shoes does not mean you have to sacrifice your vision for the game to the audience.  If I want to have a niche battle system that only a few players will like?  Cool, but for it to be liked by the audience it has to fit in the niche in some way.  Sometimes the developer does know right what makes there game the best possible, other times, the developer is totally off the mark.

In regards to mouse support, the only thing the developer is doing when not including mouse support is limiting the player base in my opinion (due to how many people want mouse support).

Of course all this is my opinion and I could be totally off the mark, but it is what I think.

 

[Galenmereth]

In regards to mouse support, the only thing the developer is doing when not including mouse support is limiting the player base in my opinion (due to how many people want mouse support).

Of course all this is my opinion and I could be totally off the mark, but it is what I think.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but when it comes to facts on the table, you're wrong. The following is not meant as criticism as much as it is meant as a reality check.

How do you know how many people want mouse support for your RPG before you've let a lot of people play it? And for those who say they do, what is their reasoning? There's a lot more involved in adding mouse support to an RPG Maker game than just the script and checking the box for your users, too. The same goes for any other engine; mouse support as click-to-move is an entirely different beast than responding to button input. You'll also have to implement good pathfinding - unless you want it to be really cumbersome to use, which in a lot of games it is. You should also design everything else to work with a mouse, like every single menu in the game, because once you can use a mouse for movement, you'll expect it to work for everything else in the game. Your maps have to be designed around this too, because if you have narrow pathways that potentially look traversable but are not, depending on how good your pathfinding algorithm is, the user might be confused by whether it's allowed to walk there or just the pathfinding acting up. Then there's things like moving events - like NPC's - and how to interact with them. Click to move over to them, then click again to talk? Or talk to them when your character touches them? The latter would be annoying if you clicked past the NPC, but your character touches them due to pathfinding, and dialogue starts. But the former is annoying because it takes an extra click to execute, which can be ambigous and off-putting if the NPC moves.

It's not as simple as supporting it just to support it: The decision must impact the whole rest of your game for it to be a genuinely good implementation. And if you solve all of the above problems, new ones arise if you also support WASD or arrow key movement, because now your maps and your events and your menus are designed around mouse movement. Look no further than a AAA game like Skyrim on PC, where it's obvious menus were designed with console controllers in mind, first and foremost, and they are really annoying to navigate with a mouse and keyboard, which is the control method on PC. Do you think a developer studio comprised of hundreds of developers have problems supporting multiple input sources if it were a simple problem to solve?

When it comes to Diablo, Diablo 3 doesn't have WASD movement included because the whole game is designed around mouse and keyboard. This is why the console version is very different from the PC version; enemies and projectiles move slower, menus are completely altered, the HUD is completely different altogether, and the gameplay - the core itself - is altered significantly to support this difference in controls. To such an extent that you can't hook up a mouse and keyboard to your PS3 and play Diablo 3 on it with them, because these controls no longer work with the gameplay tuned for a controller.

I'm not saying it's impossible to solve. Many games do solve it, like Final Fantasy 14 that works as well with mouse and keyboard as a controller. It's a tremendous achievement that has inspired me and many others, I'm sure. But they had dedicated UI and UX designers who literally spent years getting it that good, for just their game. And it wasn't a feature separete to everything else; the gameplay itself was shaped over years to make it work with both those input sources. Game development is more than just ticking a list of features. Everything you add or remove from the game impacts the whole package. Or at least it should, if you want to make the game as good an experience as it can be. And to do that, you have to make compromises depending on what the game is. You cannot make everyone happy; you cannot answer "yes" to every request you get from potential players. If you do, you'll end up pleasing nobody.

 

[Shaz]

I really don't see where you're going here. The mouse script I use (and probably others as well) DO have reasonably good pathfinding and they DO have menus designed around mouse movement.


You say "how do you know how many people want support for mouse movement?" I say "how do you know how many people DON'T want support for it?" If you are releasing on a portal that tells you their players prefer to have mouse control, you can pretty much accept it as being true. So once again, it comes down to the audience.


I think a lot of people are going around in circles here, and assuming their personal preferences are an indicator of the wider "community" (and by that I refer to "whoever you choose as your target audience"). That is only true if your target audience is the small group of people who make games with RPG Maker and have been playing RPG Maker games for eons. That is certainly not the audience the majority of the commercial developers are targeting.


Anyway ... unless someone has a comment that is not "it depends on your audience and on your game", can I suggest we let this one die? There are too many factors to take into consideration that there IS no "one right answer" and I'm getting tired of reading walls of text that just say the same thing that someone else has said.