Is playing RPG Maker games a requisite to making them?

[Ksi]

Yes, absolutely. And no, I don't mean 'oh you should try' or 'oh it's your choice'. No. You should most definitely play RM games. There are only things you can understand by playing another RM game that you won't get from another RPG - the way the engine handles things and how it comes across when you're playing the game.

For example, teleports. Most newbies who have never played an RM game tend to teleport onto the actual teleport event in their game, instead of one step ahead. That's fine for other RPGs on different engines, but for RM, which is tile-based detection-wise, only by playing other games can you understand that there is a better way to use that eventing. There are many other examples.

Another thing - it teaches you what you can and can't do with the engine, what is good design aesthetic that works within the limits of the engine, what to push hard on, what to back away from... all kinds of things particular to the engine in question.

Lastly, RM games are more likely to have those annoying bits that a polished, commercial AAA game won't have. They are just as important for learning as anything else as they give you an idea of what not to do in a game. Slow walking speeds on large, empty maps. Skills that destroy the party easily. Balancing issues. All things that you can't learn about without playing other hobbyists games.

 

[Galenmereth]

And yeah not playing other's games, while not unreasonable, puts out the attitude (as Lunarea said) that you're not really gonna reciprocate the effort. While that may not HARM you, you certainly won't be making any firends by saying "oh, I make RM games, but I won't play them", because, let's be honest, what most people read in that phrase is "Because they are below me" and take it as an insult to their skills, that being actually the meaning or not.

The way I see it is that I'm making games. Period. RM is one of the tools to do so. There's a bazillion games released every year that I'd like to play, from indies as well as super big studios, that I never get to. When people here or elsewhere don't try my games I don't think they're looking down on me -- I just think they're playing another game.

 

[Indrah]

@Galenmereth: I don't mean just not playign other's games, I mean STATING that you will not. And of course your network is gonna be really limited and unless your game page is really impressive, (which let's be honest, few people have visuals strikign enogh to warrant an automatic downlad) the more you're known for being around, the better chances you have of being given a chance.

And this is a COMMUNITY. Sure, you can just plonk your games here and call it a day, but don't expect much if you don't make an effort to belong, sort of thing? People won't play some no name's stranger game unless it looks really appealing right out the game, and that isn't in the cards for many people. (not referring to anyone in particular here, it's just normal to see newbies post their thing and going ignored on the whole).

Or just do whatever you want. I'm not their damn mother, I'm just stating what I feel is a thing and it's 3 am >:[

 

[Galenmereth]

@Indrah: I think I misunderstood your previous post a bit, then. I absolutely agree that stating that you won't play any RM games is definitely looking down on the developers of RM games, and that's not a good position to take. Either as a person, or especially as a developer. Playing other peoples' games, talking about them, and helping out like that is important in a community, you're right about that.

Slightly off topic, but relevant to the discussion: Making games is living games, and as with life it's give and take. That's important to remember. For some people, maybe playing and giving feedback on games isn't their strong suit, but helping out in other ways -- resources, scripts, answering questions, etc. -- can be just as helpful. But taking part in the community is important for us to grow as artists.

 

[TMS]

Feedback is going to have to be my main contribution to the community, since I can't script or create resources worth using.

Now, there are a few games on this forum I've had my eye on. The concern that led me to start this thread was whether playing games made using the system was as integral to being an RPG maker as reading is to writing. I'm not sure I have the time to be constantly playing RM games given my other projects.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

^That is true, but with RM games it's a lot more relevant, because you're using the same engine as the game in question. For example you might think some game mechanic a triple A RPG uses is cool, but it might be too hard for your skillset or even for the engine to pull that off. But if you like something in an RM game, the chances are it's a lot more achievable.

Well the post I quoted didn't say anything about looking at how easy or hard to implement those on RM.

You can see more effective ways to pull off some game mechanic or any other cool feature, ways that perhaps you never thought of.- You can get new ideas for inspiration, whether it's plot related or mechanics related.

- You can see the errors and issues.

 

[Shinma]

We all have ways to contribute to the community, and if feedback is yours, then that works well! I am not a scripter, an artist or anything like that, but I did find something I was good at, and was very happy to finally contribute to the community (a spreadsheet to help balance encounters). 

I have also been on both sides of feedback, giving and receiving, and it's a pretty good feeling either way. While I am not what I consider an excellent mapper, thanks to community feedback I have seen my mapping skills improve, just be sure to do so in a positive and constructive way.

 

[Matseb2611]

Well the post I quoted didn't say anything about looking at how easy or hard to implement those on RM.

By "You can see more effective ways to pull off some game mechanic or any other cool feature, ways that perhaps you never thought of" I meant that you can see how other RM devs have put together an event or a certain feature and you can get an idea of how to do it. You might've executed the same thing as well, but maybe their way is better and more effective at it. You wouldn't learn that from a triple A title because they use a different engine, have a team of people working, and have a monstrously higher budget.

By "You can see the errors and issues." again, though you can learn of gameplay bugs and problems from triple A titles, the ones in RM games become more relevant. As Ksi pointed out above for example, the issue with transfer events is something that you'll most likely witness in RM games, and so on.

And yeah not playing other's games, while not unreasonable, puts out the attitude (as Lunarea said) that you're not really gonna reciprocate the effort. While that may not HARM you, you certainly won't be making any firends by saying "oh, I make RM games, but I won't play them", because, let's be honest, what most people read in that phrase is "Because they are below me" and take it as an insult to their skills, that being actually the meaning or not.

^That. Most definitely that. This reminded me of a post I came across on the net (it wasn't on this site) of someone saying how they're making commercial RM games, but that they wouldn't ever pay for one because RM games aren't worth the money. It's a terrible attitude and they pretty much shot themselves in the foot.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I still disagree, because I do think you'll learn faster by working on the engine directly than playing a lot of games made on it... Well at least if ur like me, I learn faster when directly working on something.

This is assuming those games are encrypted, since yeah you see that it's possible, but you still don't know how it's done, and knowing which is possible is a trivial matter... Especially when you realize than A LOT of things is possible in RM anyways, and the real question to ask really is HOW to do it. Given that case, I don't think it really matters if the game that you play is made on RM or not.

 

[Indinera]

It's not "needed", but it can help. An alternative way to make games on RM is having knowledge of "AAA" games (in my case it was more AAA games from the past like Phantasy Star) and experimenting with the software.

 

[Matseb2611]

because I do think you'll learn faster by working on the engine directly than playing a lot of games made on it...

I think most of us here weren't arguing as to what's a faster method for learning to make RM games. I personally learnt to use the engine all by myself as well. Sure, it is possible to use other RM games for tutorial purposes, but that's not the point most of us are making here. The point we are making is that playing other RM games can give you useful pointers and ideas about how to implement something in your game and to help show you from the point of view of the player as to what works well in the game and what hinders the experience.

 

[Alkorri]

Hi there. TMS, my background is in journalism and creative writing, so I know what you're saying that to write well, you must read, read, read.

I fell into game development late, but I learned enough to believe one thing: Playing other RM games is critical to making anything approaching a decent RM game, if one cares about the quality of their work.

Lots of friends here have already said it better than me: you get ideas and inspiration, you know what the engine is capable of, you know what mistakes to avoid from the bad games. To put it in creative writing terms, it would be like tackling a fantasy novel without ever reading a single book from the genre. I love science fiction, both movies and games, but I cannot write it well myself. Why? Because I've not really read a single sci-fi novel. I'd fumble with the terms, falter when the time comes to describe something that another veteran could approach with confidence. And believe me, seasoned readers can spot the ones who don't know what they're doing.

whitesphere hit it on the nail by mentioning tropes - when you've played enough RM games, it gives context and depth to your own games. You're aware of the kind of tropes out there and they are all yours to manipulate and subvert with a wink to your players. 

That being said, I'm a little puzzled by those who seem to suggest that playing RM games will take bucket-loads of their time, and that's why they don't do it. Sure, play the good games to completion if you can, for research and enjoyment. But all you need is just a few minutes to experience the gameplay from anyone's titles. Imagine the goodwill you spread in the community just by telling someone, "Hey! I played your game." 

Greatest feeling in the world.

 

[whitesphere]

There are good reasons to at least playtest other people's games.    One of them is the fact that, when we teach (which we can roughly relate to playtesting), we are learning as well.   If we see a game do something well and comment on it, that can inspire us ways to improve our own game.  And if we see a game do something not right, we can learn from that what to avoid.

The important thing, if we choose to playtest, is to give detailed, constructive feedback on the games we do test.  As others have pointed out, if we're crunched for time, we can choose to only playtest, say, the first hour (or whatever) of the game (if we like the game).  Even that will be a huge help to other developers.  That doesn't mean I'd write a novel for each game, but at the very least a summary of "What went right, not, etc"  and a list of the bugs I encountered, including grammar errors, typos, etc.

To be even more helpful, without taking any more time, doing a Let's Play video of your playing the game can really help the developer.  Even if it's only, say, 15 minutes long, it still can show the developer where you get stuck and in what order you do things.

 

[Galenmereth]

In terms of time, it actually is really hard to find the time to play unfinished or untested games. Here's my average day:

• Breakfast
• Look through active projects in project management systems
• Answer client emails, and talk to clients over phone
• Do work for clients
• Lunch
• Read up on daily software security related news and bulletins
• Go over logs of client projects which I have the responsibility of, fix errors that have popped up
• Work on personal projects and/or check forums related to game development
• Dinner
• Work on personal projects
• Play games / Meet people outside in reality space / Netflix until I fall asleep

When I get to the "play games" part, I often want to play games with friends. I've also already expended most of my creative energy for the day, so giving feedback is something I'm not in the mindset of. And since I'm not in the mindset of taking notes and giving feedback, I also don't feel like I should play another developer's games with the aim of giving feedback, because it wouldn't be sincere feedback. Since I'm creatively exhausted, I usually end up playing stuff with friends, like FF:XIV, Mario Kart 8, Smash, or any other multiplayer game. If I go for a singleplayer game, it'll often be something where I can at least slightly take off my developer hat and just enjoy it. I'll obviously be subconsciously analyzing the game anyway -- I always do -- but I'll still be most likely playing a game that has been extensively tested by others, so I don't have to interrupt my gameplay to take notes.

So when I play RM games and smaller indie games in general -- and especially unfinished / work in progress projects -- I need to set off creative time. I need to actually take time out of my own projects or my work. Because I want to give constructive, wholesome and well articulated feedback, rather than the ramblings of my tired brain There are exceptions to this, and I do set off this time too, because it's important for me as well as communities I partake in. But it's not something I personally can just "do on the side".

 

[Matseb2611]

^I think many people will agree that it's hard to find the time in the day for this. Heck, we have our own projects to work on, and that is certainly more important to us. But even playtesting just half an hour of someone's game during the weekend or once in a fortnight and giving some feedback will already help them and won't really take up too much of our own time. At least that's what I think anyway. One thing's for sure, I am glad I've tried out many RM games over the course of the past 2 years, because I know I learnt a good deal simply by playing other RM titles, which then helped me to make my own projects better.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I think most of us here weren't arguing as to what's a faster method for learning to make RM games. I personally learnt to use the engine all by myself as well. Sure, it is possible to use other RM games for tutorial purposes, but that's not the point most of us are making here. The point we are making is that playing other RM games can give you useful pointers and ideas about how to implement something in your game and to help show you from the point of view of the player as to what works well in the game and what hinders the experience.

I know, and my only argument at the start is that you can also achieve those in playing non-RM games, because it is. You were the one who replied with the implication that playing RM games (as opposed to non-RM) would result to better understanding because ur playing games made with the engine... So I replied with something based on experience, that I learn faster working directly on the editor than playing games. 

But even playtesting just half an hour of someone's game during the weekend or once in a fortnight and giving some feedback will already help them and won't really take up too much of our own time.

A luxury that someone like me who works on production plant that runs 24/7 doesn't have. I mostly start to play games (RM or non-RM) once I ran out of inspiration or I'm tired at doing RM things in my few free times. :3

 

[Indrah]

I'll be blunt: havign no time is an excuse like any other for not choosign to do ANYTHING.

Not an INVALID excuse, no, but you can make time for anythign that can last 15 minutes. If you have time to develop games you certainly have time to, one day in one month, play some game in the forum for 20 minute tops.

Nobody is saying you have to play RM games daily like a habit if that's not your thing. It doesn't have to equal your development time. We're talking about playing a game for at least 10 minutes once in a while to see, or even just spend an afternoon poking around a few games, once in a blue moon. It's NOT a matter of yanking your daily timetable to yielf an extra hour.

There is a difference between "don't want to spend time on" and "can't spend time on". And I'm not tryign to be offensive, but if you're havin time at ALL to spend in free game development you certainly aren't pressed 100% or you'd be to your nose in other tasks.

It would be like having a very busy regular time and saying you have no time to EVER EVER go to the cinema to see a movie that ONE TIME. There will be at least a moment in your month where you can make space for it, unless you're juggling hell's chorelist.

You don't WANT to play other games? That's fine. It's not ideal, but many people certianly do that. Just don't try to excuse it away here. It would be like me saying I CAN'T lose my fat because I have no time to revise my eating habits. Frick that, I don't lose weight because I don't put enough effort.

This entire topic isn't meant to attack anyone or cause anyone to get defensive. We are discussing wether it is a good idea and why to play RM games, private specific circumstances as to why someone personally has no intention to do so are a different matter that's up to them. You can freely ignore any advice given on a personal level, like in anything. You COULD refuse to learn to map. You COULD refuse to playtest. You COULD ignore any criticism given. It's not what's ideal, but sure, you can do it.

And...heck this came out a bit strong. Uh. LOVE FOR EVERYONE PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M TRYING TO BERATE YOU \;A;/

Here, have a sassy dog as tribute:

 

[Galenmereth]

Nobody is saying you have to play RM games daily like a habit if that's not your thing. It doesn't have to equal your development time. We're talking about playing a game for at least 10 minutes once in a while to see, or even just spend an afternoon poking around a few games, once in a blue moon. It's NOT a matter of yanking your daily timetable to yielf an extra hour.

That depends what the purpose of playing the game is, for me. If it's to give constructive feedback to the developer, sequeezing in 10 minutes of gameplay isn't enough. Not by a long shot. If all I'm going to do is play the game and not take any notes (mental or physical), and not provide any feedback, then sure: 10 minutes is fine. But I don't get any proper impression of any game without spending time on it, and then spending time writing down my impressions afterwards. Which is why I said that in my instance, I actually do need to set off time for it in my timetable. The way my mental process works, I need to set off at least an hour of my time to give proper constructive feedback and commentary on games.

But this can vary, of course. If I played a lot of games like many people do, I'd get more efficient I presume, and might need less time. Or maybe it's a personal thing, and my process is just a bit slow I'm not writing this as an excuse, by the way; I just felt like pointing out how I, personally, function in regards to this.

 

[Caitlin]

I, myself, do not base my opinion on the engine that the game is made with, but the story, the characters and how enjoyable the plot is.  I might look at the graphics, because I enjoy unique awesome graphics. I do say that you should play games, being open to all games even if they were made in rpg maker.  Who knows what wonderful gems you might find from homemade engines, already created engines like unity or even rpg maker. 

 

[Ksi]

Take time out of your 'create gam' and play some. It's research and you should be doing it as part of the gammak in any case. :/

You can make time if you want or need to. It's not an option of 'THIS OR THAT'. In this case "THIS" becomes "THAT" - it's like playing a monster group to check for balance or practicing mapping - something that you should do to enhance your own skills in that area. In this case the skills you enhance are those of understanding your players, making better judgement calls based apon experience and using what you see to create and adapt it into your own project.

Personally I think everyone should do it - because it does make you a better creator. It's not like you need to do it every week, either. Just finish a frustrating piece of eventing? Getting annoyed at a particular script? Play a game, shelve the emotions and come back after the break. You'll be able to think clearer and you'll have gained some more experience. Basically, you have to know what makes a good game to create a good game and the only way to do that is by playing good games. You have to know what makes a bad game to avoid the snares that will make your game become a bad game by playing bad games. What luck that other RM users out there already have a ****ton of games with both good and bad aspects for you to play!!!