Is RPG Maker Cheating?

[Sharm]

For trying to do both, maybe the best solution is to help out on one of the incomplete RPG engines out there. That way you won't be starting completely from scratch but you'll still have some of the work finished before you start. Also, if you want something to put on your resume, completing a project where you have to work with people as a team is good, you get references from your co-creators and show you know how to not be a lone wolf.


I can't say I really recommend doing this though. You really should be picking a priority and not trying to do everything at once. Doing it all at the same time is going to burn you out very quickly and pull you in too many directions. Your project will lack focus and be subject to some incredible feature bloat. The absolute best thing you can do with these separate goals (be a programer, be a developer, make something that looks good on your resume) is to finish something. In fact, you should try to finish a lot of little somethings instead of one awesome magnum opus. What type of game you make will depend on which goal you choose. Personally, I think doing an RPG when your goal is to be a programmer isn't the best choice.

 

[Dalph]

I never said it was easy, I acknowledge that its hard work, but the development process feels incomplete to me.

Again..."to you".

This is your personal opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but we don't share all your same dream of creating a game from scratch. 

According to your words, we're all cheaters then? This is beyond ridiculous...ahah

Anyway, I don't like where this is going, so I'm off.

 

[Insidious Mental Pollution]

It's not cheating.

Here's how it can be described: any creative expression requires a medium.  Sometimes that medium is simply language, sometimes it's paper, an instrument, a setting, or perhaps a toolset (a programming language at one level, a construction kit like RPGMaker at a different one) of some kind.  Everyone has varying capabilities and circumstance that influence which they will use.  RPG Maker, in that regard, is a medium that exists as a trade off to programming your own engine from scratch.  It will save time, but it won't be as flexible (although it can do a lot). 

 

[Tsukihime]

As a programmer, how often do you find yourself writing all of your code from scratch?


Do you write your own programming language? Do you write your own libraries?


Do you feel bad when you use something that isn't yours?


I don't. I use others' work all the time, and feel proud to use someone else's work.

To me there is so much more accomplishment when building a game from scratch, at the end you will feel more proud of it.

I don't feel any sort of accomplishment when I write my own scripts to do something that I could have just went online and downloaded and spent 5 minutes setting up.


Maybe it can be cool that I could do everything myself, but in the end, if all I did was spend more time to achieve the same thing, I'd be wondering for what purpose I spent that time.


If you are creating a game for the purpose of learning how to write a game engine, or how to implement certain functionality like 2D or 3D graphics rendering, then maybe you'll feel more accomplished when you could do all that yourself.


When I'm making a game, I care absolutely nothing about those details, and so I wouldn't feel any better if I wrote the engine myself, which could be terrible in the end compared to just grabbing an engine that someone wrote for public consumption since I have zero experience with game engine programming.

When recruiting for a job, the developer who did it from scratch will always be picked every time, because that person has the best skillset to be used in the industry.

If they're recruiting for an art position or a writing position or an audio position, I don't see how writing an engine or script set from scratch has anything to do with it.


If they're hiring for a RPG Maker development position, I doubt someone that wrote their own engine would be chosen over someone that decided to write RM scripts.


Doing something from scratch has its merits, but it's not a one-size-fits-all thing.

 

[Synonysis]

I think we're beating a dead horse now because now I'm seeing the same answers paraphrased.

 

[Tsukihime]

Missed this earlier.

Games like To The Moon as well as any RPG Maker game takes lots of talent and effort, but the creation experience feels incomplete as if a shortcut was taken, since minimal programming is needed to create a good game

The cheating feeling comes from the fact that you can build a great game without a core essence (that being programming) by using pre-existing scripts

Why is programming required to create a good game in the first place?


There are plenty of great games that don't require programming.

 

[djDarkX]

I agree that RM is not cheating just because there are plenty of pre-existing scripts, both user and official.  I'll backup Tsukihime's claim that you don't need to know a programming language to make a great game.  I've seen programmed games that suck rocks and non-programmed ones that are FAR better.  There's an engine I use for other types of games that is a point-and-click event-based engine, yet has plugins/extensions that can be written for it using an SDK that does require programming knowledge, game logic and AI logic (when it's required).  The games produced for it are really beautiful, or can be if effort is put into them, play VERY well and not once were programmed using a programming language, but rather using events that compile into an executable for Windows, Java, Android/OUYA, iOS, Flash, XNA and soon, Python.

Examples:

Loot Hero

Heart Forth, Alicia (In Developement)

Dungeon Dashers

OddPlanet

Freedom Planet (looks and plays like Sonic the Hedgehog + Rocket Knight Adventures/Sparkster)

So no, using RM is not a cheat at all.  The more work you put into it, the better the output and the better the feeling you have for releasing something awesome.  In fact, people have made DLL extensions that can be called via Ruby scripts to add functionality, so there's still room for a programming language and skills.

If you limit yourself only to what you think you can do (with ANY engine), then you'll never go beyond a simple, run-of-the-mill game or piece of software or story.

 

[amaranth]

Is it cheating if you take a plane from New York to London instead of a boat? Rapid development is not cheating, it is smart!

But... if you're making a game to become a better programmer, making a game from scratch makes sense. This will teach you how the game works inside and out.

If your audience is gamers = use rapid development tools. If your audience is programmers = program from scratch.

 

[amerk]

Don't confuse making a game with making a game engine. I agree, RM could certainly be better in some areas, while in others I think they excel well, and it makes the process of creating rpg's much more easier than using any other program. However, the limitations usually come not from the engine itself, but from the user's ability to use it to the max. That's not to say it's limitless, because certain things can't be done, even with scripts, but most users won't even reach the boundaries to even worry about what the program can't do.

So my thought on this is: What's your ultimate goal? Is it to make a game or an engine. If it's to make a great rpg, and what you can achieve can be done with the maker (through custom art, scripts, events, etc), then why not use RPG Maker? You've already said you have some programming knowledge, so you could put that to use by working to make an exceptional RPG Maker, to show the skeptics that great games can come from RPG Maker.

 

[Kes]

I would use the analogy of music.  Would I make my own cello first, or would I use one already made to create my music?  The cello on its own is an inert lump of (mainly) organic matter.  It's what I do with it that turns it into an instrument capable of producing something of beauty - if I have the skill, vision and patience to do it.  On the other hand, the makers of cellos are essential to the process.  So, do you want to make a cello or make music?

 

[BigEd781]

Many professional, AAA games are built upon existing engines. It would be insanely expensive to reinvent the wheel every time a new game is made. RM is a hobbiest engine. There's no "cheating" about it; an existing engine lets you be more efficient and more quickly realize the actual goal, i.e., making a game.


RM is of course a toy engine. If you need more power then you may want to move on, but be aware that the complexity of making a game will also rise. You may not be ready to make your own engine or utilize an existing, "real" one.

 

[Makio-Kuta]

It's the hammer for building your birdhouse, and it comes with a chisel, too, and a good few nails. But you'll have to draw that birdhouse yourself, design it and refine it, and when you're done, do you feel bad for having bought the hammer, the nails, and the plywood in a hardware store?

I would use the analogy of music.  Would I make my own cello first, or would I use one already made to create my music?  The cello on it's own is an inert lump of (mainly) organic matter.  It's what I do with it that turns it into an instrument capable of producing something of beauty - if I have the skill, vision and patience to do it.  On the other hand, the makers of cellos are essential to the process.  So, do you want to make a cello or make music?

These lovely metaphors really say it all.

 

[Tsukihime]

I would use the analogy of music.  Would I make my own cello first, or would I use one already made to create my music?  The cello on it's own is an inert lump of (mainly) organic matter.  It's what I do with it that turns it into an instrument capable of producing something of beauty - if I have the skill, vision and patience to do it.  On the other hand, the makers of cellos are essential to the process.  So, do you want to make a cello or make music?

A more appropriate analogy in this case would be playing existing music, or remixing music, in your own performances. Is it cheating if you don't make your own music and try to build your name from there?


Well, since a lot of points that were made were focused on writing your own scripts vs using someone else's scripts.


"From scratch" can be taken to various levels (you could even argue that someone should write their own operating system or provide their own hardware), but realistically I'd probably just limit it to writing your own scripts or using other scripts.


Even with RM, you can take out the default project (which I would consider part of the RTP) and write your own stuff using the API provided.

 

[Bluetoes]

So is RPG Maker's modified version of Ruby flexible enough to stray really far away from the base engine, to the point where the work is mostly yours because the base is now hidden in complexity? I might give it a go, but I simply will not use any pre-existing scripts, I will write my own. I guess I have a pride issue, I dont feel as proud of my work when a lot of it isnt my work - that feeling almost stops me from carrying on developing. 

 

[Makio-Kuta]

Sure, we made this in RPGMaker. http://dragonflydev.com/library/dragonfly-olympics/ That strays pretty far from the base of the engine haha

 

[Galenmereth]

@Bluetoes: You can rewrite basically everything that has to do with the running of the game. For example, you can scrap the entire movement engine and write a "pixel movement" script so you can have a point and click Diablo-like gameplay. You can write custom DLL's and use those and do things like this: http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/13941-map-effects/

My easing script, for example, is pretty simple, but gives you a lot more options when it comes to moving events / objects, and animating pictures, while still using the event editor if you so choose. The biggest limitation when it comes to RPGM software is that you can't modify the editor. But you can write scripts that lets you edit things ingame, like Shaz has done here: http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/18012-map-passage-modding/

You also can't do much with the core rendering engine, so making highres games with a resolution above 640x480 isn't really feasible. You can still run the game stretched/scaled in fullscreen, but rendering above that resolution won't work very well. Other than that, there really isn't much limiting you.

 

[Shaz]

Do you want to make games, or do you want to make game engines?

There is nothing wrong with utilizing tools that help you do the job faster.  If there is already something out there that does what you need, why reinvent the wheel?

 

[Tsukihime]

You also can't do much with the core rendering engine, so making highres games with a resolution above 640x480 isn't really feasible. You can still run the game stretched/scaled in fullscreen, but rendering above that resolution won't work very well. Other than that, there really isn't much limiting you.

One option I've seen is to have RM pass the rendering to a separate program which does all the actual graphic work, while RM handles all of the game logic. It was done in XP where a 3D engine was made using RM's map editor. When you started the game, it would open a new window that rendered the map and the menu and everything. The new window itself was not limited to 640x480.


That could probably be done for RM as well, and would definitely set you apart from most RM games.

 

[Infidel]

It is no less cheating as using C++, visual basic or java. If you wish to feel like you haven't cheated at all then perhaps you should consider creating your game in machine code or binary, the only thing modern programming really does is simplify from these. RPG maker provides a simple tool to achieving the same goal in much the same way as any other. I guess what I'm trying to say is that nothing is ever made from scratch because if it was then nothing would ever advance forwards. 

(just for the record don't write in machine code as you'll be making the same game for the next dedcade)

 

[Oni]

It really isn't cheating at all since most games of any great quality comes from teams of people working together and using the devices that already exist.  Why pay someone to take the time to make something that already can be purchased and ready to go?  Your going to have to pay someone regardless and in the gaming industry, it is all about launch day and the most efficient and quickest way to get there.  I know first hand that the programmers who design PS, ILL, and many other programs, keep in mind that they have to allow for plugins. My opinion that not 1 person can do it all, because stuff would never get finished or take so long that technology keeps passing you up.  Think about it this way, your a programmer, but have you also studied physics and can program objects that fall from shelves to bounce appropriate and roll accordingly like they do in Bethesda Games, as in ES and Fallout?  If not then your gonna need to find outside help.  So it isn't cheating its about how to manage your time and your money to reach the ultimate goal, release date.

Most people will do absoluely no coding and choose to use pre-existing scripts, which is understandable for an artist, but to me it feels like cheating with 1 person developing the game.

I am an artist and I can't do everything that is needed in a game, specially one of a Final Fantasy magnitude.  I am a concept artist and I work a lot with effects in Adobe programs, but I have to hire or find volunteers for my sprite and tiles, I am not a pixel artist.  I don't have enough time to dedicate to every single aspect that is needed for a game, even an indie game.  Most of the time large companies recruit outside for each project and from other companies.  Only a small percent ever stay and the rest are on wait until the next project.  That includes programmers, music people, artists, even the suits.  Trying to take every single aspect of a game and do it yourself will cause you to never release the game, trust me I know.  Regardless who I go to for codes, artwork, or sound, the story still mine that is being told.

Besides the best games are created when people come together and share ideas and their technology.  A good example would be Alex Seropian and Jason Jones. Two programmers that came together to make Bungie what it is and give us the Halo series.