Is RPG Maker just a cookie cutter?

[LightDiviner]

So, I've been using RPG Maker for months now. I find the program very useful. Let's me make the maps easily, make my own characters and write the dialogue, allows me to do coding within the software to change it. However...my family just doesn't seem to understand. They keep calling it an, "Easy way out," or, "Using a cookie cutter." I try my hardest to explain to them how successful people who use it can be, but they just refuse to listen. They say I NEED to make my own code, use C-Sharp, code from scratch. I'm no good at that stuff, but they think I have to, or I may as well give up. It's not true, right? Will this not be a good program to be a permanent game developer?

 

[CleanWater]

I heard the same, but from mates of a "professional" game development forum from Brazil. What they said only served to hinder my own progress as developer and as a professional. I lost too much time trying to learn a "real" development language, just to learn that coding everything myself is useless and time consuming.

Today I have my own company, two games and one DLC released on Steam, and I'm working on my third title in RPG Maker 2003 (that will be released next month, also on Steam). My old mates? What are they doing right now? The old forum closed, everyone scattered, and most of them had abandoned the development scene.

Put things this way: If you need to travel a great distance, and can go faster with a bicycle, why will you walk by foot?

It's basically the same to ask a lumberjack to trash his chainsaw to use a hand axe instead. It only will serve to make him work much more slower and produce much less in the end.

If they don't want to understand... Whatever. Just keep doing what you know that is right.

 

[LightDiviner]

I heard the same, but from mates of a "professional" game development forum from Brazil. What they said only served to hinder my own progress as developer and as a professional. I lost too much time trying to learn a "real" development language, just to learn that coding everything myself is useless and time consuming.

Today I have my own company, two games and one DLC released on Steam, and I'm working on my third title in RPG Maker 2003 (that will be released next month, also on Steam). My old mates? What are they doing right now? The old forum closed, everyone scattered, and most of them had abandoned the development scene.

Put things this way: If you need to travel a great distance, and can go faster with a bicycle, why will you walk by foot?

It's basically the same to ask a lumberjack to trash his chainsaw to use a hand axe instead. It only will serve to make him work much more slower and produce much less in the end.

If they don't want to understand... Whatever. Just keep doing what you know that is right.

Thanks man. Least I know SOMEONE sees things how I do.

 

[CleanWater]

Thanks man. Least I know SOMEONE sees things how I do.

Understand that your family wants the best for you. But it doesn't mean that everything they say always will be the best for you. Always listen carefully to what they say, but if you realize that their advise is not wise, don't follow it.

 

[Rhaeami]

The tricky thing about being a game developer is that you're at the whims of the populace. Even if you write all your own code, make your own art, and it's all totally amazing stuff... people still might not buy your game. The simple fact is that RPG Maker has a stigma attached to it, and it'll be your job to prove to your customers that you're different - but that's not a deal-breaker, and it's not even the worst of your problems. The market for games made with this engine does exist.

There are many paths in game development, and none of them are easy. Not even RPG Maker.

 

[taarna23]

"Using a cookie cutter..." If I am making sugar cookies, dang right I am using a cookie cutter! You want me to cut circles with a knife? You're going to get bad circles and a grumpy me.

As they say, use the right tool for the job. I, too, contemplated leaving behind RPG Maker to use some "real" development platform. It took less than my lunch hour at work and one sheet of paper to determine why this was a stupid idea.

Some stuff in an RPG:

• Menus
• Inventory tracking
• Movement system
• Battle system
• Character stat tracking
• Monster stat tracking

When you start breaking that down from a programming perspective it becomes pretty scary. You start needing to make decisions about data structures, how to access this information, how to handle map data, how to handle character sprites.

I decided not to re-invent the wheel, and just use one that somebody already made. And while it may be slow-going, my project is still rolling along!

 

[The Stranger]

You'll hear this a lot. People tend to look down on something if it's easy to use\do, even if the end results are identical to the more difficult way of doing things. Of course, this way of thinking is pure nonsense. Something being easier to understand and use\do doesn't make it inferior to the more traditional methods. You'll also hear similar crap when you use stock\shop bought assets.

You could spend many years trying to figure out how to code basic things, or simply use what already exists and get on with actually making your game. Sure, you might feel proud after having coded some simple menu, but is it worth it?
It's exactly as @taarna23 put it, there's no need to re-invent the wheel. Besides, there's plenty of "real" code to learn in RPG Maker, depending on which one you use; MV uses JavaScript.

I'd rather sink my teeth into the meat of my project, and deal with the more advanced systems, than trying to code every last thing from the ground up. Besides, we're not the only devs to use stock\shared assets and systems. I know Unity also has many script type things in its asset store, plus tonnes of other assets. There's no shame in not doing things the old fashioned way.

 

[LightDiviner]

You'll hear this a lot. People tend to look down on something if it's easy to use\do, even if the end results are identical to the more difficult way of doing things. Of course, this way of thinking is pure nonsense. Something being easier to understand and use\do doesn't make it inferior to the more traditional methods. You'll also hear similar crap when you use stock\shop bought assets.

You could spend many years trying to figure out how to code basic things, or simply use what already exists and get on with actually making your game. Sure, you might feel proud after having coded some simple menu and other things, but is it worth it?
It's exactly as @taarna23 put it, there's no need to re-invent the wheel. Besides, there's plenty of "real" code to learn in RPG Maker, depending on which one you use; MV uses JavaScript.

I can't really afford MV at the moment. All I was able to get was 2003, adn even still only during that summer sale.

 

[Ryzler]

If RPG Maker is a "cookie cutter" then what about the vast majority of games that are made in pre-made engines such the Unreal Engine or even the CryEngine (which is being used for third party development despite be specifically made for their Far Cry games).

There is nothing wrong with using RPG Maker. Just like any tool or software or engine, so long as it is the right tool for what you want then it is perfectly fine. Besides, your family kind of sound like elitist snobs from the little that you have said about them. I'm sorry for insulting your family. But if they don't like the way you program then tell them to grow up.

 

[The Stranger]

@LightDiviner MV was just an example of a version which has what people call a legit coding language. You can pull off some pretty damn advanced things using eventing alone, if you know how. Most of my menus and what not are done via eventing, and that's using MV. You don't need to code to make games, that's the whole point of RPG Maker, as well as many of the more user friendly engines around. The belief that making everything from scratch somehow makes your game more legit or worthy is asinine. All that matters is the end result, not the process in which you achieve it.

 

[LightDiviner]

Also, their trying to say I have to pay a fee to use their program if I sell my game. That's not true right?

 

[The Stranger]

@LightDiviner Which program? There's no fee to pay for using RPG Maker beyond what you paid when you bought it. Some other engines do have fees, however.

 

[LightDiviner]

@LightDiviner Which program? There's no fee to pay for using RPG Maker beyond what you paid when you bought it. Some other engines do have fees, however.

Thought so. Just needed confirmation to convince them about at least that. They almost never believe what I say. :/

 

[starlight dream]

No matter what you do, someone will have an opposite opinion. And both sides can be right at once. They both have ups & downs.

Learning new code will require more time. At this point you've already invested time learning RPG maker, and you can put that info into practical use and see what the results will be. While starting to learn something different, will bring you back to square 1. And if you want to code and make everything alone, it'll be a massive amount of work. You also have more knowledge of RPGM than your family does, so you can't expect them to understand what the engine can do.

It's true that some people don't like RPG maker games and avoid them. But others love the engine and search for those RPGM games (like me).
No matter what programming you use, it'll have some fans. And customers come in different types: some are harder to please, others buy & never play, some are obsessed with reviewing and with their "critique" persona, others never review, others send feedback to the makers while others don't. Some jump on whatever system is new. Some prefer less novelty but more refinement of the technology. On the internet there's also a whole bunch of people that just want to download things for free..
Being able to satisfy a maximum of customers will depend on the game content (the quality) but also on how it is marketed.
The marketing/business aspect is a useful part to learn, regardless of whether you use RPGM or something else.

If you're thinking very looooooong term about making games, don't get TOO far Ahead of yourself.
We've no idea what programs will be available to us in the near future and the not-so-near future. So my advice is: to use what tools are accessible to you right now, depending on your time and means, so you can make a game you're happy with and proud of. And maybe later on, you can move to something else if you think that is better.

As for the "cookie cutter" it maybe is, but it's still a great one and it offers versatility. The tough part of game making, is staying committed and finishing your games. Even if 1000 people have the cookie cutter only a handful will complete their project. So it's not so important what you use but rather to compete the games and polish the story/content as much as possible. That'll impact your success a lot.

 

[FleshToDust]

People are hated no matter what engine they use if they're independent. Unity coders get a lot of hate also. I think people just don't want to see others succeed. I don't know about your parent situation but it could be them thinking if you don't do everything the hard way you won't get hired by a company.

If you want to work for a large game company you'll need to go to college but if you want to be an indie dev (and indie is where the innovation is) then rpg maker is a great tool for you. It's a lot quicker than coding everything by hand.

you'll probably learn to code anyways through curiosity and making plugins for rpg maker. you could then take that knowledge to unity or any other engine so you win either way.

 

[ChampX]

So, I've been using RPG Maker for months now. I find the program very useful. Let's me make the maps easily, make my own characters and write the dialogue, allows me to do coding within the software to change it. However...my family just doesn't seem to understand. They keep calling it an, "Easy way out," or, "Using a cookie cutter." I try my hardest to explain to them how successful people who use it can be, but they just refuse to listen. They say I NEED to make my own code, use C-Sharp, code from scratch. I'm no good at that stuff, but they think I have to, or I may as well give up. It's not true, right? Will this not be a good program to be a permanent game developer?

When they say you NEED to use C# and code from scratch, I get the impression they haven't actually produced any real software outside of maybe school projects. No offense to them.

First off, if they are gonna make claims like that, they may as well go as far as to say go write code in C/C++ as that's what AAA professional games use. C# is mostly found in the indie scene when it comes to game development at least. Regardless that isn't the point.

People have already made the same point earlier, but I'm gonna borrow a quote from one of my favorite programming books:

"Do you know of any tools, libraries, etc. that might help? The answer is almost always yes.
Even at the earliest stage of learning to program, you have parts of the C++ standard library.
Later, you’ll know large parts of that standard library and how to find more. You’ll have
graphics and GUI libraries, a matrix library, etc. Once you have gained a little experience, you
will be able to find thousands of libraries by simple web searches. Remember: There is little
value in reinventing the wheel when you are building software for real use. When learning to
program it is a different matter; then, reinventing the wheel to see how that is done is often a
good idea. Any time you save by using a good library can be spent on other parts of your
problem, or on rest. How do you know that a library is appropriate for your task and of
sufficient quality? That’s a hard problem. Part of the solution is to ask colleagues, to ask in
discussion groups, and to try small examples before committing to use a library."

Bjarne Stroustrup - Programming: Principles and Practice Using C++ - Page 167

What does this mean in terms of RPG Maker? As others said, if you are baking cookies, then using a cookie cutter to cut cookies is better then trying to cut the cookies yourself and they look sloppy. We use RPG Maker because we are lazy and it allows us to create RPGs easy which saves us time and money. Some of us could write RPGs ourselves from scratch, but why should we? You don't get bonus points for creating your own engine and nobody is going to care you spent an entire year on building your own codebase. Players care about your game being fun. Fun is engine agnostic. It is up to you the developer to make your game fun. A game written from scratch won't save you if your game isn't fun and engaging. If the game is written poorly, which is especially true of rookie coders (and some professionals!), then your game will only suffer more than picking a tool where everything is already tested and well optimized.

If you want to make classic top-down 2D RPGs, RPG Maker is a good fit and most likely the right tool for the job. If you want to make a side scrolling platformer, then you are better off looking elsewhere. I personally would recommend being more focused on learning concepts and good design principles of games in general. If you ever enter game development professionally, you will always have to learn new tools. Don't get attached to specific tools. In 10 years from now we may get some awesome 3D RPG Maker and if that happens, you'll need to be able to pick it up rather quickly if that's what that game company uses. Concepts and design principles can transfer regardless of the tools used and the tools such as RPG Maker are just one way to express your designs.

If you are only interested in learning, then it doesn't really matter what you do -- you're learning and that's great! If you want to make a product other people are going to use, such as an RPG that people will play (and possibly be sold commercially) then you want to use your time wisely. People like other people who get things done more than how they get it done.

 

[starlight dream]

I can't really afford MV at the moment. All I was able to get was 2003, adn even still only during that summer sale.

Rpg Maker 2003 is still a great maker. It has a side view battle system and it has nice sprites, that are well-proportioned. Although I bought Ace too, I'm planning a game in 2k3 instead.

It's normal that the company will push and advertise the newer makers more, it doesn't mean though that you can't make a great game with 2k3. Some time ago there was a discussion on the forum about what pc specs are the norm in different countries. It turns out that many gamers out there don't have the pc power to handle MV games. So something made with an older maker can be more accessible to more players.

Newer makers like Mv also require fine-tuning, they get more solid over time as their glitches are fixed.

If you have ideas for your game and don't know how to implement them in 2k3, you can post about it in the forums, and you can find a solution or a work-around .

 

[LightDiviner]

Thanks everyone for all of your input on this.

 

[DarkEspeon]

RPG Maker IS a cookie cutter. It's in the name. It's a MAKER. For EVERYONE. It's not an engine for making anything you want, it's literally a set of cookie cutters for RPGs. It has its own limitations, and if you want something cool you are better off doing it from scratch on actual engines. I'm making a game too, but I use it for prototyping. RPG Maker is a great way to make a prototype, test it out, see how everything works, balance out the enemies and stats, and that's about it, honestly. If you want something good - you're better off using another engine like Game Maker. It ain't easy of course, but the results will be much better. Of course there are great examples of good games on RPG Maker, but their sheer amount, which is stupidly low, should give you a hint on where you're thinking wrongly.

EDIT: By all means, keep making games on RPG Maker. It's definitely not a horrible... 'engine'. But I heavily suggest moving on to better engines when you're done. Porting will be easier once content is done and you'll have much more freedom to add whatever you want to.

 

[bgillisp]

Keep in mind these kind of engines have been around for years too. Back in 1993, SSI decided to release their engine that they had been using for the Gold Box D and D games for anyone to buy for $39.99. I bought it when it first came out. Was it cookie cutter? Yes. But, I was able to use it to finish 3 games over the next 3 years, even if I was stuck using the D and D ruleset (the combat engine was hardcoded, as were the classes and spells).

But, what I remember most was it got panned by the critics at the time. They were like "Why would you want to even make such a game? Go learn to program."

So that attitude has existed since at least the early 90's, and apparently hasn't changed now.