RMMZ Is there any Visustella alternatives for MZ by now?

[LJames]

Yes, VS devs are free to do whatever they want with their code and obfuscate it however they want, regardless of how much I hate that decision, and I'm free to just not use their plugins. But are there actually any alternatives by now? Complete or in-progress?

It's just as it is, if I need to tweak something, like move that window ten pixels to the right or execute some code in some specific situation, I have to rewrite the whole system from scratch, and this isn't why I came back to RPG Maker from Godot

 

[Aerosys]

VS Plugins give you enough control to tweak or move windows, you should not have any problems with the obfuscation. And I don't know any better alternative. I mean, the Devs work hours and hours and I doubt that others want to do the same just to get a similar product - and if so, they would probably obfuscate as well.

 

[Shaz]

I've moved this thread to Plugin Requests. Please be sure to post your threads in the correct forum next time. Thank you.

 

[caethyril]

The VisuStella MZ plugins can do a lot of things. Which features are you seeking?

 

[LJames]

I'm not talking anything specific for now (and window position example was for simplicity. You can set positions, but IIRC, not for every window), but currently thinking if I should start a project in MZ or stick to MV. But in general, when I used MV, I was constantly altering the code to add stuff that I needed for my custom systems I tend to make. For example, in one proof of concept I altered the script in a way that you could make characters attack in any order - choose one with left-right (or scroll wheel), select attack, three others receive buff, and on next turn you can choose out of three that are left. And status window showed which character already attacked, and what level of buff they had.

It's not something that can be done without actually changing the code, because it is beyond what framework developers thought to do. But if I want to do something like that, I have to implement the whole system from scratch, instead of keeping the features I need and altering those I need to change.

And just in general, I saw the "you don't have to use VS plugins if you don't want to" comeback pretty often, and so is the question, *what* should I use instead? Should everyone just write their own framework when needed? The truth is that i'm only one girl, not to mention that I have more than enough coding as my day job, and if I wanted to implement stuff from scratch at every new project, I'd stick with Godot

 

[estriole]

I'm not talking anything specific for now (and window position example was for simplicity. You can set positions, but IIRC, not for every window), but currently thinking if I should start a project in MZ or stick to MV. But in general, when I used MV, I was constantly altering the code to add stuff that I needed for my custom systems I tend to make. For example, in one proof of concept I altered the script in a way that you could make characters attack in any order - choose one with left-right (or scroll wheel), select attack, three others receive buff, and on next turn you can choose out of three that are left. And status window showed which character already attacked, and what level of buff they had.

It's not something that can be done without actually changing the code, because it is beyond what framework developers thought to do. But if I want to do something like that, I have to implement the whole system from scratch, instead of keeping the features I need and altering those I need to change.

And just in general, I saw the "you don't have to use VS plugins if you don't want to" comeback pretty often, and so is the question, *what* should I use instead? Should everyone just write their own framework when needed? The truth is that i'm only one girl, not to mention that I have more than enough coding as my day job, and if I wanted to implement stuff from scratch at every new project, I'd stick with Godot

some of the visustella plugins have other plugin maker write the 'free' version counterpart...
but not ALL the visustella plugins have that... since visustella is a huge library of plugins...

so you might want to tell us what kind of plugin you want to use in your project... and there's might be 'free' version from other plugin maker we can recommend to you...

for your last question... what you should use instead? you can browse this forum for lots of free plugin... and try to use that to build your framework... of course there might be possibility of incompatibility between plugins... but you can also use the forum to ask for help and maybe request compatibility patch in the plugin topics to the plugin author...

hope this help...

 

[Andar]

there are a lot of plugin writers, but most of them either write plugins they need for their specific projects, or on request for other people specific projects.
that means they plugins are usually singular, not designed to be a complete engine.

so for specific needs, we might be able to point you to alternatives - but there is no general package alternative that can do everything.

 

[LJames]

so you might want to tell us what kind of plugin you want to use in your project

At the very least, core plugins - Skill/State/Element plugins with their notetags are especially invaluable (except trait sets, why is it even considered core?)

for your last question... what you should use instead? you can browse this forum for lots of free plugin

I mean, yeah, but the question was mostly rhetorical, out of frustration to "you don't have to use it". VS basically hold monopoly on "core"-type scripts, and I was curious if anyone tried to change that since last time I checked

 

[Trihan]

You don't actually have to use every core plugin. If you need to customise the battle system then don't use Battle Core. Use what functions you want to, the ten aren't mandatory as a package.

But to answer your actual question, there isn't really a fully-featured alternative suite at present. I'd considered writing a Trilobytes set for MZ, but then I ended up on the Yanfly plugin porting team anyway so I didn't see the point any more.

 

[TheoAllen]

But are there actually any alternatives by now?

A complete set? no
A torn piece, maybe.

Complete or in-progress?

All I heard that some people are trying to make an alternative plugin set.
Either it was just a talk or actually exists somewhere but not enough publication.

and this isn't why I came back to RPG Maker from Godot

and if I wanted to implement stuff from scratch at every new project, I'd stick with Godot

I mean, maybe if you are comfortable using the other engine, keep sticking with it?
I tried to embrace MZ (and still trying), but I still love the old-fashioned VXAce.

I saw the "you don't have to use VS plugins if you don't want to" comeback pretty often, and so is the question, *what* should I use instead?

Start by seeking plugins, mindlessly.
Just search... look at some JP plugin devs, master list, etc.

Should everyone just write their own framework when needed?

When you can, yes.

I don't agree with most of YF and Visu's designs. I mean, I prefer to inject the code instead of using "eval everything at anywhere" which basically the design principle of YF's plugin to make it "user friendly". Plus I don't want to write JS code in a cramped place with no syntax highlight.

The truth is that i'm only one girl, not to mention that I have more than enough coding as my day job

This depends on your goal.

I do code as my day job. And I don't have a goal to actually make a second income out of this little hobby. So I can make my own game or plugin at my own pace. Perhaps, if you want to actually make something meaningful, you have a point.

At the very least, core plugins - Skill/State/Element plugins with their notetags are especially invaluable (except trait sets, why is it even considered core?)

This request is more helpful than just asking "if there is VS alternative".

The problem with people crying for no VS alternative is that they don't actually say which plugin or feature they want. Which at some point understandable. Because most of the time people don't actually understand what they want.

VS basically hold monopoly on "core"-type scripts

They don't.
Everyone is free to replicate the feature they make, as far as I could tell. Of course, as long as you don't take their code.

 

[LJames]

I mean, maybe if you are comfortable using the other engine, keep sticking with it?

Problem with using Godot, is that you have to implement *everything* from scratch, even stuff like grid movement and collision detection. And this is not really what I enjoy in gamedev, I prefer creating worlds, developing characters and inventing systems, not debugging why character clips through the wall there.

When you can, yes.

When I try, I burn out extremely quickly. Again, because this is not what I enjoy in gamedev, especially as a hobby. And this is on top of ADHD.

Plus I don't want to write JS code in a cramped place with no syntax highlight.

There was a MV plugin somewhere that allowed to load notetags from files, I wonder if it is applicable to MZ as well after a bit of tuning

So I can make my own game or plugin at my own pace.

I also don't do it for income (and IMO commercialization of RPG Maker community ruined whole "community" thing), but again, ADHD + burning out - when I try to do big personal projects with a lot of coding, I end up abandoning them in a month, tops

Everyone is free to replicate the feature they make, as far as I could tell.

Well, they don't de jure hold monopoly, and don't have any patents, but nobody actually tries to replicate these features, because VS already exists. Probably not exactly monopoly, but I'm not sure what is correct term for this. I remember somebody comparing VS to Adobe. Soulless profit-driven corporation that creates a good product but has some draconian (on a scale) business practices, but because product is so good, nobody actually has any options that in any way comparable to Adobe. I know some people who were studying graphic design of some sort, and they were forced to pirate Photoshop, because they could not afford it, but their studies required photoshop. Here's similar thing

 

[ramza]

Well, they don't de jure hold monopoly, and don't have any patents, but nobody actually tries to replicate these features, because VS already exists. Probably not exactly monopoly, but I'm not sure what is correct term for this. I remember somebody comparing VS to Adobe. Soulless profit-driven corporation that creates a good product but has some draconian (on a scale) business practices, but because product is so good, nobody actually has any options that in any way comparable to Adobe. I know some people who were studying graphic design of some sort, and they were forced to pirate Photoshop, because they could not afford it, but their studies required photoshop. Here's similar thing

While I for sure have at least some of the skills required to replicate a lot of the features in the VS plugin library, there's really no reason for me to do it. I'd have to imagine that the same is true of most 'small time' plugin developers. I don't have the kind of time needed to put out core plugins that come anywhere close to as feature-complete as their core scripts, and even if, somehow I did manage to do it, if anyone used it at all, it'd be a tiny amount of people compared to the current reigning juggernaut.

And sadly, the largest user base of those plugins would be people who cry foul of the obfuscation aspect of the VS plugin suite, because, let's face it, anyone who didn't have a problem with that is already using their plugins, for the most part. And, not to throw any shade or anything, but if the vocal portion of those developers are anything to go by, those aren't the type of people I want associated with my plugins, ya know?

Not to mention that one of the main reasons for the obfuscation of those plugins in the first place was code piracy. I'm going to assume that at least some of the people who actively complained about the obfuscation at first were doing so because of piracy reasons, and releasing a non-obfuscated alternative to that suite just opens one up for more code piracy.

 

[poorrabbit]

Here's the thing about VS - they're largely (though not exclusively) porting all of Yanfly's MV plugins to MZ. YEP had A LOT of plugins. They were/are very popular. And they do freaking everything.

I won't go into why they' re obfuscating them, which I don't like, but I understand their reasons. As a developer, I do find it difficult to work with. It's hard to debug and hard to tweak features - if I don't like what something does, I pretty much have to deal with it or find an alternative. In my case, though, I've been lucky in that I've found things outside of VS that do what I need. And when I don't....I write my own.

Well, once. I wrote one.

There are very few authors (and most of us are solo) doing giant fully integrated plugin suites.
OcRAM has bunch that are awesome. HIME has a bunch. Galv has a bunch. As does Fomar. Just off the top of my head, even with VS (which I use extensively), I use some of theirs.

Most plugins from non-VS/Yanfly authors are going to add features that just don't exist (such as Fomar's passive skills and skill learning plugins) or OcRam's lighting, movement and layer plugins. Or Galv's fast travel system. Galv also has event movement/replication set (much like VS Event Move Core). Finding plugins suites that modify core mechanics such as skills and state core or battle core is going to be harder.

If you really want to avoid VS, you're going to need to decide on what you need and go looking for it. Pour through the MZ plugin release forums. I see a lot of plugins that mirror various VS plugins. And every time I see one, I think "that will be nice for the people avoiding VS, good job". Even though I use VS. It's nice to see alternatives.

Keep in mind, MZ has only been around like 7-8 months. It took years for MV to get all that they have - people are still developing plugins for it. If you have something specific in mind, ask in the plugin request forums....maybe someone is working on it already.

 

[Mr. Detective]

Honestly, the best thing VS offers is the action sequencing for sideview battle system. The rest, you can probably live without them. There are alternatives you can use with some tweaks, like MogHunters, for example. And if you use front view, you probably can get by without any VS plugins at all.

I'm not a fan of how many plugins try to cramp everything into the tiny notetag box. Better to load those codes from another file where it's easier to edit them.

Welp. Basically, at this point, either use them and complete your game or use something else. Hire someone else, maybe? If you have money to pay for those premium VS plugins.

 

[TheoAllen]

And this is not really what I enjoy in gamedev, I prefer creating worlds, developing characters and inventing systems, not debugging why character clips through the wall there.

Then you have to choose between pros and cons. It is inevitable.

When I try, I burn out extremely quickly. Again, because this is not what I enjoy in gamedev, especially as a hobby. And this is on top of ADHD.

Then don't.
Eliminate everything that you don't like. If you decide to use Visu, then just build whatever Visu has to offer. If they can't then it just won't happen in your game.

There was a MV plugin somewhere that allowed to load notetags from files, I wonder if it is applicable to MZ as well after a bit of tuning

The note field is a thing. Plugin parameters that eval your code is another thing.
At this point, it is better to just inject the code directly.

I also don't do it for income (and IMO commercialization of RPG Maker community ruined whole "community" thing), but again, ADHD + burning out - when I try to do big personal projects with a lot of coding, I end up abandoning them in a month, tops

I don't know what is your problem (with ADHD or else), but game dev is a passion work, even if it just a hobby. But you can come back at any time. I usually went hiatus for like 6 months or even two years myself. And I'm good. Except maybe you just want to put yourself on hiatus when burnt out?

but nobody actually tries to replicate these features, because VS already exists.

I keep hearing this line from many people. And what I thought is that they just don't seek deep enough. It won't be a complete plugin suite made by a single brand, but a torn piece might be available. Plus, this goes back to my point, "people don't tell which VS's feature that they want".

This sentence alone won't help any small plugin dev. You keep comparing to VS. Start by giving small plugin dev some love by trying their plugin, promote them, report feedback, and bugs. But no, you seem to ignore their existence.

 

[Kyuukon]

Why not stick to MV instead then? It's mostly the same. That's what I decided to do because of this new trend of "obfuscate everything" >.>
They hurt 99% of their legal user base, just to spite the other illegal 1% (if even).

 

[LJames]

Oh. I just got some realization that I act like one of those entitled people who pushed Yanfly into what we see today. I'm sorry. Really should've managed my expecations a bit. Like, yeah, MZ plugins are a port of MV plugins, so they already had years worth of code by then, and even trying to find something that replicates everything there is a fool's errand. But it's just so frustrating that I can't change things when I need to, in comparison to MV.

And thanks for everyone who tried to help. I'm sorry

 

[poorrabbit]

And thanks for everyone who tried to help. I'm sorry

Aw man, don't be sorry. You asked a pretty legit question.

And yeah - it can be frustrating. When I come across a feature that I really really want to put in but I can't find a plugin for....I see if I can figure a way to duct-tape it in there. If I can't - I move on. Maybe someone will build it by the time I finish my game...in two years, at this rate.

Focus on the stuff you can do, and come back to the annoying stuff when you've got the mindset for it.

 

[Starbird_Resources]

I'm generally happy with the Visustella Suite but I've run into plenty of frustrations with the obfuscated code. I understand why they did it, and I'm not opposed to it in theory, but I've run into inexplicable bugs in some of the plugins (I know about plugin compatibility etc, these bugs exist when I'm ONLY running VS core and the relevant plugin) and while I'm not 100% sure, in some cases I bet I could comment out a couple lines and have it be good enough for my purposes. In one particular case, I knew exactly how to do a certain thing in MV, but MZ changed how the feature was implemented. VS had a plugin that addressed this and made it easy, except it broke something else that was game-critical. So instead of being able to just look at how they did this one little thing and then dropping that into a tiny plugin that would actually work, I have to give up on the feature for the time being. I don't have time to exhaustively document each of these instances and then wait in hopes that they'll be addressed.

tl;dr - i get why they do it but it makes me groan.

also, respectfully disagree with the "stick with mv" thing. might work for some people but after you've used MZ, it's hard to go back to MV's comparatively sluggish speed.

 

[SigmaSuccour]

Since December 2020: I've been collecting all new plugin releases, and compiling them in this spreadsheet:

Now, I have a short story to tell you.
When I started using RPG Maker MV, back in January 2018. I saw everyone using Yanfly's library of plugins.
“If you do what everyone else does, you will get what everyone else gets.”

So I intentionally avoided using Yanfly's plugins, to make a different game from everyone else.
Doing this... lead me to thousands of plugins. (Currently, I have 6000+ MV plugins in my collection.)

Spoiler: Here's a showcase of some of them:

This project of mine uses around 160+ plugins. And only 3 of them, are Yanfly's.
Feel free to play the tech-demo of it:

⟁False Server by SigmaSuccour

A game dev launching his discord server, while a pandemic is going on outside.

sigmasuccour.itch.io

How many of those 6000+ plugins are Yanfly's?
Around 200...

So when people bring up their frustration about Yanfly's library being paywalled, or obfuscated.
I laugh...
I laugh... maniacally.
(Because my brain goes. "Uhhh... what about these 5800 plugins?")

Part of me is deeply impressed as well...
How they were able to brainwash the community with their marketing... that taking away those 200 plugins, meant the demise of RPG Maker itself for some users.

To conclude: Notice the efforts & plugins of all the other devs.

P.S, I've been testing & sorting these 6000+ MV plugins for the past 3 years... and they just DO NOT END! SOMEONE make them STOP! I can't STOP feature creeping! Ahhhhh!!!