Is This Puzzle Too Hard?

[Zevia]

So I have a logic puzzle in my game for an area I'm currently working on. I think I've given enough clues that there's only one correct answer, but since I already know the answer, I'm curious if other people can also arrive at the same conclusion without arriving at a different one that doesn't violate any of the clues. The puzzle may seem a little abstract, but it makes more sense in context.

You're presented with two monsters - left and right. I'll say LM and RM for short. They tell you four people have died (that you've met previously in the game), and you have to tell them what order those people died in. For short, we'll call them K, N, S, and R.

Up to this point in the game:

Day 1

You left S behind in the starting village to defend it on his own. It looked bleak, but it was a choice of two bad options.

K and N were removed from your party after a cave collapsed, separating you from them. They were trapped behind.

Day 2

R was removed from your party after you fought her.

You've eventually arrived at this logic puzzle.

When you speak to LM, you get these responses:

1. My sister (edit: this is referring to RM) would say I always tell the truth.

2. S died just after you left [the starting town].

3. K and N died together.

4. R recovered from her wounds.

5. S died first.

When you speak to RM, you get these responses:

1. My sister (edit: this is referring to LM) would say I always lie.

2. N died last.

3. S died today.

4. K died instantly when a boulder crushed him.

5. R died before S.

Now, I'm relatively sure you can actually solve it using only one monster's clues, and I don't want to make it too hard since it's part of the main story progression (though, if it really came down to it, you could eventually solve it by random guessing. I think there are about 24 possible solutions?). However, I wanted to run it by the community and see if it was too difficult to put together.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

S, K/N, R?

 

[Kyutaru]

K R S N.  This wasn't challenging, I determined the answer just from the Right Monster's clues.  The left monster isn't needed at all unless you fall for the obvious lie in the first statement.

There is no way that RM could claim that LM always tells the truth unless RM always told the truth, yet RM states that her sister LM would claim she always lies, which can't be the truth if RM supposedly tells the truth about LM.  Likewise, RM claiming that her sister LM would claim she always lies is the truth, because LM is a notorious liar who would easily throw her sister under the bus.  Thus nothing she says can be trusted.

I would actually make the puzzle even harder.  It's too simple.

 

[Shaz]

When LM says "my sister", is that referring to RM? And when RM says "my sister", is that referring to LM? Or is/are the sister(s) additional (non-present) parties? Is there something that indicates one monster always lies and one always tells the truth? Otherwise they could be both telling the truth SOMETIMES, so NONE of their statements can be trusted.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

yeah, I wasn't thinking that LM and RM are the sisters... since they are simply given as "two monsters"

 

[Shaz]

In that case, what "my sister would say about me" gives away nothing either. Who are the sisters? What's to say either/both of them tell the truth?


This is a common puzzle, but in the versions I've seen there are only two people involved, and they tell you what the OTHER person would say about them. And somewhere is a statement that one always lies and one always tells the truth.

 

[Harmill]

K R S N.  This wasn't challenging, I determined the answer just from the Right Monster's clues.  The left monster isn't needed at all unless you fall for the obvious lie in the first statement.

There is no way that RM could claim that LM always tells the truth unless RM always told the truth, yet RM states that her sister LM would claim she always lies, which can't be the truth if RM supposedly tells the truth about LM.  Likewise, RM claiming that her sister LM would claim she always lies is the truth, because LM is a notorious liar who would easily throw her sister under the bus.  Thus nothing she says can be trusted.

I would actually make the puzzle even harder.  It's too simple.

I'm glad you spelled out the logic you went through to find the answer, because these types of puzzles go WAY over my head. With that said, I disagree with your last sentiment. If this was even harder, this could be a  progression blocker in the game for me, unless I could look up the answer. I just can't grasp these types of paradoxical puzzles within my brain.

 

[Shaz]

As long as there are only two answers, and if you get it wrong you can try it again, it'll never be a progression blocker

 

[Harmill]

If there are two possible choices, that is true. Zevia mentioned something about there being 24 possible outcomes if you have to individually input who died 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, though.

EDIT: Ignore me, I'm a dumb dumb.   I think I had separated the paradoxical nature of the initial statements apart from their following clues. So, yeah, you're presented with two possible sets of clues to figure out the order of death and you just figure out which set of clues is truth. So to restate my position: I wouldn't be able to figure out who is telling the truth based on the paradoxical statements, but I would just make a guess based off the first set of clues. If there's a way to continue even if your first guess is wrong, then this should definitely be doable.

 

[supercow]

[You're presented with two monsters - left and right. I'll say LM and RM for short. They tell you four people have died]

input = 4 people died

LM:

4. R recovered from her wounds. = recovered means not dead (possibly)

so LM cant be trusted

RM:

1. My sister would say I always lie. => to me irrelevant

2. N died last. [***N]

3. S died today. [today means most likely 3]

4. K died instantly when a boulder crushed him.[at 1 or 2 ]

5. R died before S. [that makes it likely to be 2 since S is at 3]

KRSN <= answer

 

[Athryl]

I came to the exact same conclusion as Kyutaru, I really just looked at the first statement for each of the monsters and thought "what if this statement is true, what if this statement is false" and then realizing LM must be lying, followed all the clues of RM.  It was too easy for me, but maybe that's just because I'm familiar with the one is always lying and one is always telling the truth game?  I could see having trouble with it when I was younger, so depending on the intended audience it's probably about right.

 

[Zevia]

Sorry for the confusion about the sister statement - the two monsters speaking are, in fact, female, and are simply palette-swaps of each other's sprite, so I think it should be apparent when you're actually in the room that they are referring to each other.

And yes, KRSN is the correct answer. You do actually have to input the right order. Each of the possible choices is an NPC, and when you interact with them, you get "X..." and then you get a 4-way choice of "Died first," "died second," "died third," "died last." Whatever you choose, it gets stored in a variable for each NPC, and when you've chosen for all 4, an event checks if your choices line up with the correct answers.

If you choose wrong, you lose some health and get hit with a no-healing debuff so you can't restore back up. I think you get about 4 or 5 tries before you get a game over, but you're given lots of warning that this will happen and you can save at any time. If you answer correctly, the debuff is removed and the exit opens up.

I think the hardest part is mostly just figuring out which is telling the truth and which is lying. I've considered that I could make it more difficult from there, but like I said, this isn't an optional area, so I'd like it to simply range from pretty easy to moderately challenging.

Is there something that indicates one monster always lies and one always tells the truth? Otherwise they could be both telling the truth SOMETIMES, so NONE of their statements can be trusted.

There currently isn't, but do you think that would be beating the player over the head a little bit if I did in fact state outright that one always lies and one always tells the truth?

 

[Shaz]

I believe you need to indicate somewhere that one always tells the truth and the other always lies. If you don't, then there isn't enough evidence in your game to draw a conclusion - the player can only come to a decision if they make an assumption, and there's no reason they SHOULD.

 

[Mouser]

First, I'll point out the obvious - both sister could "sometimes" lie, in which case all their statements are meaningless.

For the rest, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Zevia]

For the rest, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I'm OK with it being a puzzle people are familiar with. I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a puzzle that people haven't seen before in one form or another, but even so, I don't mind it being easy for the people who know the logic behind it already since it's necessary for story progression. For those who haven't done it before, then they get to be one of the lucky 10,000.

 

[ArcaneEli]

Yeah I had absolutely no idea what anything meant...

 

[Mouser]

I'm OK with it being a puzzle people are familiar with. I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a puzzle that people haven't seen before in one form or another, but even so, I don't mind it being easy for the people who know the logic behind it already since it's necessary for story progression. For those who haven't done it before, then they get to be one of the lucky 10,000.

I was actually thinking more the arrow to the foot as a 'creative solution' to the age old problem (be sure you scroll down)

 

[Kyutaru]

Can't tell which monster is telling the truth?  Murder one of them.  That'll get you some answers quick.

 

[Warpmind]

My favourite solution to the conundrum of "which monster lies?" is one I, as DM, was exposed to in D&D...

The Bard of the party steps up to one of the monsters.

"What's 2+2?"
"...aw, ffff....ive."

 

[Kyutaru]

Surely he's not depending on monsters to know proper math.