Japanese Games Suck.

West Mains

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Two words: Dark Souls.

Besides, the global industry is going stagnant. I blame EA for pushing corporate greed into the core of modern mainstream development.
 

Chaos17

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Quite the necropost, I know, but you guys might want to check this out.

Japanese Games “Just Suck” Target Has a Message for Phil Fish: Thank You
That's a proof that people really do not think about consequences when they write something on the internet because those two western programmers clearly were sorry after they published that article. I really do admire the japanese programmer who stayed calm and even thanked them (was he ironical?) so japanese will work more harder.

So thanks for sharing this.
 

Touchfuzzy

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That's a proof that people really do not think about consequences when they write something on the internet because those two western programmers clearly were sorry after they published that article. I really do admire the japanese programmer who stayed calm and even thanked them (was he ironical?) so japanese will work more harder.

So thanks for sharing this
What articles are you talking about? No western programmers wrote any articles. Phil Fish made an ass of himself by saying all modern Japanese games suck straight to the face of a Japanese designer who had paid his own way to go to the US and attend the conference.

The article that was written that Goto was responding to was an article Ashcroft wrote SYMPATHIZING with Goto. I'm almost certain he didn't regret it. I suggest reading the blog post he originally posted that Goto was thanking him for before you demonize someone.
 
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LionHeart48

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Now I wont judge ALL japanese games, only the jrpgs. After what Japan had given us in the 90's for rpgs, which was the golden age of rpgs (my opinion not a fact) I just think there tired right now. But Japan will regain their strength and make a comeback. I look at it as a rollercoaster, in the 90's the rollercoaster went up, and also early 2000's, then it went down and will go back up eventually. Also Touch since you play Risk as a board game do you play Risk II for PC? I would love to vs you. :p
 
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Confederacy

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I blame EA for pushing corporate greed into the core of modern mainstream development.
It's not just EA that's done this to the industry (Activision), but considering that they're the ones that introduced online passes to screw used game purchases, season passes, requiring multiplayer in all of their games, introducing microtransactions to singelplayer games, and absolutely massacring the SimCity franchise coupled with its "always online" DRM, I do have to agree with you.
 

West Mains

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It's not just EA that's done this to the industry (Activision), but considering that they're the ones that introduced online passes to screw used game purchases, season passes, requiring multiplayer in all of their games, introducing microtransactions to singelplayer games, and absolutely massacring the SimCity franchise coupled with its "always online" DRM, I do have to agree with you.
Well, yeah. They never started it, but EA has pretty much forced it into the center stage of the industry, the almost single handedly ruined the entire video game industry. In my honest opinion, if we have another video game crash, it'll be because of EA. I think they're the single worst thing to happen to video games and to the business world. It's hard to think another crash would happen since the industry is one of the biggest parts of the global economy now, but oversaturation was what caused the last crash, and it won't take much more to cause the next one. 

Aaaanyways, this is a topic I can (and have in the past) speak about in great length :p
 

Natelus Densier

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I'm going to have to go back and find out where Phil Fish being a jerk transitioned to 'EA will kill the games industry', because I'm having difficulty making the connection myself.

Considering he apologized at the panel after making the statement and did so at least once more afterwords, I can cut him some slack for his statement.
 

TengHu

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Granted, a majority of Japanese games suck but not all of them.


The reason why they probably suck is because there's too much repetitiveness. One such game I despise with every fiber of my being is Bleach Heat the Soul. It's always the same game/system with new characters. NOTHING new.
 

Natelus Densier

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A majority of all games are terrible; pointing out Japan specifically does nothing but leave the impression that we believe the western market to be better.

Let us bring to point the top selling games of last year, and view just what the West has done to games as of late:

This last year has seen existing franchises take the medals, with Call of Duty Black Ops 2 being the highest selling game, followed by Madden and Halo 4, placing second and third respectively.  When speaking of the East's stagnant nature, I can't help but look to our two top sellers to show just how similar a state the West is in.  Hell, even Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 placed on the top ten list.  For a series that is often considered the worst franchise in video game history, it stands as a symbol of just how little stagnation matters, if at all.

I could go back further, but that would only help my case.  A CoD game has literally topped the sales chart for 4 years in a row now, and if every 'This is the same game over and over again' claim were to be true, than we as western gamers have put up with it year after year (and shall continue to do so for a few more years at least).  In fact, in these past 4 sales charts, almost every game that makes the list is a sequel.  To say that each and every one of these has done something to change the formula for which they're designed would be entirely untruthful.

Stagnation is a global issue with video games, so listing it as a reason for why a single market is failing is like saying you don't like cats because you have to feed them.  Not really an exclusive issue.
 
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Roboblue

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This thread sickens me a bit. There are hardly any posts here that don't reek of elitism, and most of the posters haven't read the the whole thread and so maintain arguments that have already been solved a couple pages ago. I think the worst part is that games are being brought up as "terrible and stagnant" yet if you've actually played the games you would notice the tweaks and changes that have happened over the franchise's time. Touchfuzzy has made this point multiple times in this thread, yet it seems to be forgotten two posts later every time and the same old arguement is made every time that all new games suck and don't do anything new. It's a terrible mindset to have when there's plenty of great games out there, but many are considered bad just because they're similar to past games.
 
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Kaiser

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Look I'm wondering why little to anyone is saying this. What are video games truly made for? If you say as a form of art and to get a message, out...well you are wrong. Video games are made by companies and or a small team for one single object..and that is money. Companies such as Capcom, EA, and everyone else on the west and east only see us as walking ATMs and only want our money and nothing else. Don't give me that crap that they "listen to fans" if they did then we would have an original Mario game, a Megaman classic/X/Legends game, a proper and actually fun FPS game, a great innovative and gameplay driven rpg, a fun and easy pick up and play fighting game, and  tons more.

I don't see that now or any time in the future. Right now the money is in social games and casual games, and that's what the companies are trying to get, some with success and many with failure. SE learned their lesson and won't do it ever again due to the high negative responses they were given. Sega is taking their hand at it with ports of games on mobile software and games such as Sonic Jump and Sonic Dash. EA just want to milk every little bit out of the market which is a terrible thing. People can become sick of having so many games available to them and we all cannot purchase them all on a whim.

Games are games no matter where they are from. East, West, North, South. Its just some games are inspired or stem from the different cultures in the said area that the game is produced. That's why there should be no such thing as a Jrpg and a Wrpg. A role playing game is exactly what it is. Why should we separate them based on their culture and influence?
 

Natelus Densier

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Look I'm wondering why little to anyone is saying this. What are video games truly made for? If you say as a form of art and to get a message, out...well you are wrong. Video games are made by companies and or a small team for one single object..and that is money. Companies such as Capcom, EA, and everyone else on the west and east only see us as walking ATMs and only want our money and nothing else. Don't give me that crap that they "listen to fans" if they did then we would have an original Mario game, a Megaman classic/X/Legends game, a proper and actually fun FPS game, a great innovative and gameplay driven rpg, a fun and easy pick up and play fighting game, and  tons more.

I don't see that now or any time in the future. Right now the money is in social games and casual games, and that's what the companies are trying to get, some with success and many with failure. SE learned their lesson and won't do it ever again due to the high negative responses they were given. Sega is taking their hand at it with ports of games on mobile software and games such as Sonic Jump and Sonic Dash. EA just want to milk every little bit out of the market which is a terrible thing. People can become sick of having so many games available to them and we all cannot purchase them all on a whim.

Games are games no matter where they are from. East, West, North, South. Its just some games are inspired or stem from the different cultures in the said area that the game is produced. That's why there should be no such thing as a Jrpg and a Wrpg. A role playing game is exactly what it is. Why should we separate them based on their culture and influence?
Publishers are a business, and originality often sells less than mimicry.  Games cost a lot to make, so it's a tough sell to investors to make the game different or original.

Fans are all over the place in their demands, and often are completely vague to begin with.  Mario games that tried to be original, like Super Mario World 2, pale in comparison to others in the series that relied upon more of the same.  Megaman 9 and 10 were reasonable throwbacks to the classic series. Megaman Legends never sold well, and the fanbase for it could in no way turn a profit under normal circumstances.  'a proper and actually fun FPS game' is too subjective a statement to further discuss, and since wikipedia called it an rpg, I suggest Dark Souls as an answer to a 'a great innovative and gameplay driven rpg'.  For 'a fun and easy pick up and play fighting game', I recommend Super Smash Brothers.  As for 'a ton more', Frick that, it falls under the same reasons as to why 'Idea Guy' isn't actually a job in game design.  Everybody has an idea to fix Game X, but not everybody has a good idea to fix Game X.

While Social and Casual games do sell, any attempt to phase out our normal titles will likely never actually happen.  The firestorm that would consume the situation would likely be too much to keep it from occurring.  Your statement of Square Enix learning its ways conflicts with your 'all publishers hate consumers' stance, and I can say with almost certainty that they will screw up again, just like I imagine every publisher will screw up every now and then.  Mistakes will happen, and fixing one will not stop another down the line.

JRPGs and WRPGs are fundamentally different in their design, which is quite obvious upon inspection.  There are exceptions (Dark Souls being one of them), but a decent argument can be made as to why they should be separated.

And to return to your starting question, yes, games cost money, and profit is made on them, but to say that the entirety of the games industry makes games for profit and nothing else?  On an RPG Maker forum?  Sure, RPG Maker isn't very comparable to ACTUAL game development, with most of the projects being created as a hobby instead of a job, but to say the only thing ever inspiring developers to do their job well is a raise almost sounds like an insult.
 

crono-x

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You can see how sour phil is about the game industry on that "indie game the movie" documentary. He consider his game "state of art" because of the several interactions he made, but the game general design flaws says he haven't learned anything at all from all those scrapping. Dont get me wrong, fez is pretty and surelly does has a subjective meaning, but its mostly boring and pointless. And because of that I dont even have the slightly interest to find out the subjective meaning behind it all.

From the moment you leave the first area you are totally lost. The reference map, or the world map, it's the major design bust. You cant navigate because its too small and cluttered, it doesn't has any relevant visual indication of where you should go and why, its all black and squares and lines and what i cant understand sheep captain. Its a mess. All the visual communication the game has is lost on black and white colours and a poor visual indication of connection and progress. For a game with that 3D over 2D design approach the world map should at least make sense, but it doesn't. The result is a player totally lost in the world jumping around and looking for squares with no objective at all. I mean, is that hard to at least draw a fluid path like the super mario 3 map? Hell thats a almost 30 years map example. I mean dont even go metroid navigation if you can't explain your player how to navigate this "subjective" world.

WIth that said I dont think one has the right to say that A WHOLE COUNTRY games sucks. Bayonetta and Vanquish just to mention two somewhat recent amazing games that were miss translated (as everything americans tries to translate) and thus totally ignored over the west.

Do some japanese games sucks? Yes they do, but most western games sucks even more.
 

Chaos17

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What articles are you talking about? No western programmers wrote any articles. Phil Fish made an ass of himself by saying all modern Japanese games suck straight to the face of a Japanese designer who had paid his own way to go to the US and attend the conference.

The article that was written that Goto was responding to was an article Ashcroft wrote SYMPATHIZING with Goto. I'm almost certain he didn't regret it. I suggest reading the blog post he originally posted that Goto was thanking him for before you demonize someone.
I made a mistake, you don't need to take things like that.

Yes, there was only one person who apologised, it was Phil Fish.

Mr Aircraft just resumed his encounter with Mr Goto.

Though, my though stay the same.

People should stay cautious because who knows who will read them and in this case Mr Goto knew about what Phil fish wrote even if the internent world is pretty big.

I made a mistake but I didn't bash on Mr Aircraft.
 

Kaiser

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 In my opinion it's not the stagnancy of the series that makes the whole industry...stagnate... Of course you won't change much in the account of gameplay and overall aspect in a long running series, because otherwise it won't be part of that series anymore. For example, you could never imagine a Super Mario Game with a more Dragon Age or Dead Space approach.

 No. what is making the industry monotonous is the lack of new series that innovate the genre. Too few are the new series that actually improve the industry, and sadly, most of them are indie and unkown. That's because the developers are too afraid to jump in full length in uncharted waters just because games are becoming more and more the same. For them it is safer to continue to launch FF or NFS games that follow pretty much the same formula, slowly fluctuating by the feedback of the players.

 But that doesn't help us. In that aspect the japanese developers are worse. They are more afraid of change than the westerners, mostly due to their native love of tradition and native culture.

 I back that statement up by saying that the only mainstream series that actually made a difference are western ( Bioshock / Borderlands ) plus some more indie titles such as Dear Esther and Guns of Icarus . These are the only games I can think of that were really a gamble for the producers: they had no ideea how they would be perceived. they just launched them and hoped for the best.

 So, to sum it up I believe that Eastern video games need a few new daring, fresh, youngsters that love video games and are not afraid to take the bull by the horns, in order to regain a leading seat in the gaming world.
 

Ratty524

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Look I'm wondering why little to anyone is saying this. What are video games truly made for? If you say as a form of art and to get a message, out...well you are wrong. Video games are made by companies and or a small team for one single object..and that is money. Companies such as Capcom, EA, and everyone else on the west and east only see us as walking ATMs and only want our money and nothing else. Don't give me that crap that they "listen to fans" if they did then we would have an original Mario game, a Megaman classic/X/Legends game, a proper and actually fun FPS game, a great innovative and gameplay driven rpg, a fun and easy pick up and play fighting game, and  tons more.

I don't see that now or any time in the future. Right now the money is in social games and casual games, and that's what the companies are trying to get, some with success and many with failure. SE learned their lesson and won't do it ever again due to the high negative responses they were given. Sega is taking their hand at it with ports of games on mobile software and games such as Sonic Jump and Sonic Dash. EA just want to milk every little bit out of the market which is a terrible thing. People can become sick of having so many games available to them and we all cannot purchase them all on a whim.

Games are games no matter where they are from. East, West, North, South. Its just some games are inspired or stem from the different cultures in the said area that the game is produced. That's why there should be no such thing as a Jrpg and a Wrpg. A role playing game is exactly what it is. Why should we separate them based on their culture and influence?
The reason they are separated is because Eastern culture is pretty vastly different from Western culture. Japan in particular finds more strategic, numerical-based games to be highly enjoyable, where Westerners usually like faster-paced games that employ motor skills over logic. Why do you think it took a good 12-10 years for RPGs to even become remotely popular in the U.S.?

I also can't agree with any statement that essentially says "This is made just for the money, Consumers are mindless cattle." First of all, the demand for such products need to exist first. If you are trying to sell oranges in a village that hates them, how do you expect to make profit? You really HAVE to listen to your consumers in order to make money of your product to begin with, so the whole "Companies don't care about what you think." notion is bull. What you SHOULD consider, however, is that another man's trash is another man's treasure. You may think Super Mario Bros. is getting stale, but what about the countless kids and casual gamers who don't? That demographic is Nintendo's primary target, and a majority of them find enjoyment out of the series even if it is shallow at its core. Companies do listen to their consumers, they have to in order to maintain their business, but it's a matter of who is giving the feedback, where are they saying it, and who's backing it. Not all feedback is "good" feedback.
 

Gomi Boy

 
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The reason they are separated is because Eastern culture is pretty vastly different from Western culture. Japan in particular finds more strategic, numerical-based games to be highly enjoyable, where Westerners usually like faster-paced games that employ motor skills over logic. Why do you think it took a good 12-10 years for RPGs to even become remotely popular in the U.S.?
You're going to need more than this to sell an assertion like that. "It just makes sense" doesn't fly. I know that there's a distinction for a reason, but this is a ridiculously simplistic non-explanation.


Mr. Fish is kind of a shitlord, but he's pretty much on the mark in this case. Japanese corporate structure as applied to game companies results in a great deal of things getting grandfathered in that shouldn't be, and with the emphasis that's placed on seniority, once the real luminaries retire the company is suddenly in the hands of second-in-commands who are desperate to get it right on the first try and treat the old formulas as sacred.
 
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West Mains

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You're going to need more than this to sell an assertion like that. "It just makes sense" doesn't fly. I know that there's a distinction for a reason, but this is a ridiculously simplistic non-explanation.

Mr. Fish is kind of a shitlord, but he's pretty much on the mark in this case. Japanese corporate structure as applied to game companies results in a great deal of things getting grandfathered in that shouldn't be, and with the emphasis that's placed on seniority, once the real luminaries retire the company is suddenly in the hands of second-in-commands who are desperate to get it right on the first try and treat the old formulas as sacred.
Not that their ways are always bad. If it wasn't for how they look at business, we probably wouldn't have the Sony we know today. The sheep Nintendo pulled with Sony before the PS1 came out was "I kill you Samurai style if I could"-level stuff. If they were a western company, they have just said "meh, they tried to screw us, I don't like them." Instead it fuelled a fire that's become one of the strongest burning flames in the industry. Probably because of 'honor' and 'bullshido' and stuff. Heheh
 

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