Jay's Dual Tech system

Lionheart_84

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I did it ... but I do not understand this code where I have to put it .... I put it between the plugin ... but I did not even turn ......
 

HeroicJay

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I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "I did not even turn".

I didn't include it in the base plugin because there are other ways to implement it, and that solution, while it's the simplest, won't work for all users. If your actors have no need to change icons later in the game, though, that should be more than sufficient. Just make it its own plugin and include it anywhere on the list; it doesn't really impact much.

You do need to edit the system\IconSet.png file to actually have the icons you're using, and again, you'll need to put <icon:#> (with the right icon ID in place of the #) in the Actors' notes.
 

Lionheart_84

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I'm sorry that you did not understand what I meant ....

But the rest I understand .... but this code ... in which I have to add plugin ???




 













 
 

HeroicJay

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Just make a file called "Icons.js" or something in your \js\plugins directory and copy that text into it.
 

Lionheart_84

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Thanks for your help!!! Now it works great .... !!! :D   :D   :D

You can set the coordinates of the icons ??? ;)   ;)   ;)
 
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Kipplentoast

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Anyway, so my text width dilemma. I suppose the simple solution would write two versions: one for Yanfly's Skill Core and one for the default, and just say it's not compatible with any other skill cost displays at present? I'd prefer something more generic, but for right now it's the best solution I have. Ugh, but even that one seems a bit invasive to the Yanfly code to do right. :( I just wish I had a simple way of calling the width of text that's already been placed...

EDIT: So here's the thing. I now have a version that works, but it duplicates a good chunk of Yanfly's code (though also fixing what I believe to be a bug in said code), just because I don't have any better solutions.  I think that's probably a bit of a gray area at best where legality is concerned, and as such I am so far not pasting it here.
That makes sense. Unfortunately, my project is going to be eventually reliant on the skill cost features that are (and I imagine will be)in the Yanfly skill core, and the display conflict is a little too much to roll with right now. That being said, this is a great plug in and if anyone isn't running the skill core the actor icon snippet works perfectly. Awesome work!

BTW, I don't know if you visit Yanfly's page all that often, but his News page contains a youtube video from a user on this forum that shows your plugin working with his Action Sequences and it looks like Peanut butter and Jelly (except the part where the user accesses the skill menu and the costs are all garbled), so maybe a conversation between you guys is that far off the mark.
 

Vegnarus

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There's many ways to have the system choose costs so it can be a headache. The visuals are just one of the problems that can occur.

I think the cost wouldn't be a problem if the skill had a single cost defined by the user or just used a formula to determine the cost (a simple sum, a rounded average or something else).

The skill depletes the MP of both actors by the same amount and they both use up their turn.

Example:

Fire + Slash = Fireblade

4 MP + 3 MP = 7 MP

It can even work with mixed resources such as 4 MP + 3 TP. But the problem starts if you have a game where resources are different and some actors don't have MP or TP.

A simple solution would be to have the two costs for the player skills flash one after the other with the names or icons of the players next to them.

You can have many modes I suppose. The defined cost, the formula cost and the composite cost with the flashing solution.
 

HeroicJay

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I think you bring up quite a few good discussion points, Vegnarus.

The costs are just whatever is defined in Game_BattlerBase.paySkillCost and Game_SkillWindow.showSkillCost, and any cost you define should already be going in those places anyway (that's what the base engine does, and that's what Yanfly does.) Not doing that is risking incompatibility with Yanfly as well as just making it more difficult to expand on. This system already handles all costs so long as they're in those two functions (yes, it even already handles display, it just then doesn't know how wide said display is, so it starts overlapping text).

Honestly, if there's any problem with cost outside display, it's costs that aren't tied to one character. Like, if two people use a Potion for their part of the skill, so it normally costs two Potions... and you only have one Potion. That one might be tricky. But, at present, it's also an obscure scenario.

vinilodeon and I discussed the possibility of global costs (automatically charging each character the same thing) in a private message, but I want to tackle the last major issue in the version I already have working before adding extras. (If anyone finds bugs besides the known one, though, that's different.)

You mention "the problem starts" if you have a game where resources are different than MP and TP, but I use that to defend my choice to have them linked to other skills. No messy bothering to read multiple different skill types for plugins I can't know about. Just say "Game_SkillWindow.showSkillCost!" and be done with it. Here's the best part: who said the other skills had to actually appear on the menus? You can define dummy skills that appear under the "None" skill type (or just a skill type your characters don't have, if you want states to be able to block them) and have no effect whatsoever and use them as the components!

The flashing display would definitely be a cool option, but I have a bad feeling it may be more trouble than it's worth - I'm just guessing, I haven't tried it yet - but once I'm doing extras I'll look into it. It would certainly save on space. It would not, however, fix the text issues I'm having unless the character tags appear AFTER the cost instead of before. (That is, instead of "Joe: 10 MP", it displays "10 MP: Joe" or something.)

As for using up both characters' turns, one can easily replicate that by giving a simplified and less overt "Stun" state to the non-initiating character. Of course, it would be better to do it automatically. I started work on this in VX Ace before switching to MV, and my first attempt DID skip the non-initiating character's turn from the menu itself, which worked great until I tried to cancel moves, so I put it aside to focus on the non-turn-usey version... but that said, this isn't VX Ace. It's definitely worth trying again.

But yeah, there's plenty of functionality left I can add. And I've been talking to Yanfly, so I may be able to get to that by tonight.
 
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Vegnarus

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Honestly, if there's any problem with cost outside display, it's costs that aren't tied to one character. Like, if two people use a Potion for their part of the skill, so it normally costs two Potions... and you only have one Potion. That one might be tricky. But, at present, it's also an obscure scenario.
I guess you could just run a check to see if both actors can pay their bills in succession, and then allow the skill to be used. This is a good point because some resources may be shared and you have to check if it's enough after multiple deductions. (or just the initial one since this is a dual tech) 

You mention "the problem starts" if you have a game where resources are different than MP and TP, but I use that to defend my choice to have them linked to other skills. No messy bothering to read multiple different skill types for plugins I can't know about. Just say "Game_SkillWindow.showSkillCost!" and be done with it. Here's the best part: who said the other skills had to actually appear on the menus? You can define dummy skills that appear under the "None" skill type (or just a skill type your characters don't have, if you want states to be able to block them) and have no effect whatsoever and use them as the components!
I said that the problem starts there because that's pretty much where things get tricky. With multiple resources, you can't use the single cost if it's a hybrid cost [MP/TP] and one of the actors lacks a type. So it means that you have to use separate costs associated with each of the characters respectively. And using dummy skills is a bit messy so if that can be avoided it'd be better overall. 

As for the display of the hybrids, you can use the flashing solution once the skill is selected in the menu. Have an icon in place of the cost to indicate that it's a Dual Tech and once you highlight the skill it starts showing the costs for each actor flashing or quickly scrolling to the left and stopping. (Just throwing some ideas out there)

If you ask me, the easiest way to make this script is to have the actors learn Dual Techs which can be used by both characters and have a single cost which is read through the database. The cost can either be deducted from both actors or just one.

With Yanfly's upcoming Learn Skill System, maybe he could add a way to make so that a skill can only be learned if Actors know specific skills so that there's no need to check if the skills are there to make the Double+ skill available. If you have a forget system in place then things just get a bit more complicated but we can't always solve everything and having a good basic system is more important now. 

And as for the turn thing, the problem would be that the turns and skill selection is always specific; top-actor to bottom. So if the bottom actor has a double skill which involves one of the top actors who already chose a command then there might be a problem here. So the turn skipping sounds good but it needs a specific battle system to make it work which allows you to choose commands more freely. Moghunter's old ATB had this.

[SIZE=10.5pt]EDIT: [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]I think I have something that might work if you want to use the complicated hybrid cost route. Use a note tag that serves as the cost of the skill and deducts a certain amount of resource from actors and the inventory on use. (like 2 potions for example).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I guess this is mostly for Yanfly and his Skill Core plugin so maybe you can let him know or ask him to help you with something similar for your plugin. I think you two should probably work together to tackle this plugin and make it work really well. He hasn’t actually added the item function for skill costs yet but I’m sure he will eventually. This is just for the sake of an example.[/SIZE]

 

[SIZE=10.5pt]This is what I had in mind and here's what the tags mean:[/SIZE]

 

[SIZE=10.5pt]Actor [Actor ID, Resource Cost, Resource Pool][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Item [No. Needed, ID of Item][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]<Skill Cost>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Actor [1, 3, MP][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Actor [3, 4, TP][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Item [3, 5][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]</Skill Cost>[/SIZE]

The skill will cost:

 

[SIZE=10.5pt]3 MP from Actor [1], 4 TP from Actor [3] and 3 units of Item [5][/SIZE]

Essentially, you will go through the list to determine whether the costs can be paid from each source in order to make the skill available for use. And then you'll remove the MP/TP/Items after the skill is executed.
 
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HeroicJay

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The "complicated hybrid" route is exactly how the game best known for its dual and triple techs did it. :p I'm keeping the base functionality tied to skills, but once I have the cost string working (in a published form) I can implement other ways to design dualtechs. It's not like the others would be significantly harder (well, actually, they might: see below), but they are likely to be more limited (a global cost means it's the same cost for all party members, the end. Your <Skill Cost> method above limits the cost to whatever resources are already implemented.)

I will say that having it "flash" only when selected would not be any easier than having it flash all the time - actually, it would probably be harder, and I don't see the advantage. So I doubt I'll be doing it that way. And I will be looking into the option of having the cost string flash between party members when I get around to it, because it's a perfectly fine idea - and depending on how the window refreshes, it might not be that hard. (I can't check right now - I'm typically only going to be working on RPG Maker on evenings and weekends.)

You're not wrong about the turn skipping thing, but a much bigger problem was that canceling commands would actually cause crashes in VX Ace when I did it that way! I wasn't entirely sure why, so I put it aside to worry about later, and then MV came along.

Oh, by the way, there is something else about having the dualtechs take component skills you might be overlooking: skill requirements other than cost. Look back to my screenshots, in the picture where Therese forgot her axe, so Fire Slash was unavailable. Though admittedly I never showed Marsha's command window when Therese didn't forget her axe (or her presence), I assure you it works. But you can't put an axe requirement on Fire Slash itself if you want a non-axe-wielding mage like Marsha to be able use it!

Or what if Marsha is Silenced? Logically, she should be unable to cast Fire, so Fire Slash should be disabled - even from Therese's command window when Therese is not silenced. But (if we assume for a second that Power Slash and Fire Slash do not appear in a "Magic" menu or one otherwise affected by Silence, as they actually do in the demo, so pretend that didn't happen) there's no particular reason Marsha can't call the skill if Therese is silenced.

With component spells, these are both non-issues. Without, building your dualtech skills suddenly got a lot more complicated.

Anyway, Yanfly appears to have updated SkillCore in a way that, should allow me to finally publish the fix for the skill cost string! Which is awesome. (Thanks, Yanfly!)

----

And now it's ready! Since, the more I think about it, the more complicated not basing dualtechs on other skills actually is, I'll see if I can do that blinking text next.

----

And what's this? Another version so soon? So it turns out that the "blinking" (I use the term "cycle" in the plugin itself) wasn't as hard as I'd feared. It's optional - set it and its cycle speed with parameters.
 
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Vegnarus

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It looks like the blinking effect wasn't that hard to do (and was as easy as I predicted incidentally  :p ). And yes, I do know that that's how Chrono Trigger handled it but I don't think you understood why I called it complicated considering that you used quotes to refer to it.

I'm not sure what you meant with "it limits the cost to whatever resources are already implemented" or why that's a problem, but as I have already said before, there are many ways to make this plugin and each way has its issues which are not limited to just coding and cost distribution. 

And as for the other requirements bit, I was focusing on the cost aspect and trying to give you ideas and ways to design and expand the system with. The weapons and states requirements are just another layer of complexity that I simply didn't delve into.

Anyway, you're on a good route with the plugin it seems so good luck on any future expansions and polishing.
 

Kipplentoast

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@Jay. You are the best. Thanks so much! Having this plugin smoothed out just made my project for me. Looking forward to whatever else you might produce!
 

HeroicJay

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Looking over my post, I might have come off harsher than I meant. If I seemed upset above, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention.

However, I am not sure why you think having the composite spells counts as being complex, or making hidden dummy spells for the components is messy. The decision to use component spells as I did was chosen for, among other reasons, its simplicity. All the costs, all the restrictions... it's all already implemented, and you the user can already define it any way you want to, in a way that's compatible with plugins that already exist and more plugins down the line.

You know, actually, while in the middle of writing this, it occurred to me that there is a somewhat counterintuitive, but easy, way to do costs and restrictions without dummy spells, though it's not entirely triple tech friendly (the tech must be taught to, but hidden from, the other two users). Since recursion isn't possible, you can define the skill itself as its own component, despite my own warning previously not to do that. Then it would use the MP, TP, whateverP costs and whatever restrictions are already part of the skill, and obviously just having the dualtech means it will always be available so long as both actors are. (That said, I tested it and it took double the listed MP cost from the user, so I'd need to fix that. It otherwise worked flawlessly. And I discovered why that happened and it's a one-line fix. There's still one other potential problem with doing it that way, which I'll fix later, as I really haven't been getting enough sleep lately and it's way too late for me to still be up coding plugins.)
 
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Xelion

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Hey, thanks for the plugin! Will try it tonight, hopefully it will work together with Ellye's Simple ATB
 

HeroicJay

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I haven't tested, but I don't know why it wouldn't be compatible.

Though no specific functionality for this is in place, it would actually be easier to skip characters' turns in an ATB or CTB system, as opposed to the straight turn-based of RPG Maker, since there you give the actions one-character-at-a-time. However, I might wait to see what Yanfly has in store - he (or she?) is teasing his own version of an alternate battle system.

----

I know the bumping rules, though I wish I could ignore them given I just made a notable update to this: Before, the "hit rate" of physical skills would always be determined by the user of the skill. So you have a mage with a low hit rate use a dualtech that's listed as physical (such as, oh, say, the Fire Slash example in the first post), then you'd be using the mage's low hit rate. No more! Now you may define which actor's hit rate is used - or even get the sum of two actors' hit rates!

----

Oh, and anyone who grabbed that last version? One minor obscure bug fix caused a much sillier and less obscure bug. That was clumsy of me. Grab the new version, unless you don't mind your characters using skills when their MP/TP/whateverP is insufficient.
 
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Radis3D

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Excuse me...

thank you for making this plugin..

this one is wonderful plugin that can make combo skill and compatible with Yanfly Battle Engine (y)

i have an compatibility issue with Ammunition Plugin

before i use yours, the ammunition was work, but after i use yours, the ammunition plugin didn't work

i still can shoot even runs out of ammo, but when use dual tech, it's work well i can't do the skill, because runs out of ammo

thank you..
 

HeroicJay

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You must place my plugin after all plugins that modify cost for skills. That is, the Ammunition Plugin must go first on the plugin list. I know the Ammunition Plugin's page says "This plug-in should normally be placed under all plug-ins that you are using if possible". Ignore that; mine must go below it.

Also, any global costs (like items in your global inventory) that are used by both members of the dualtech currently risk a scenario where you'll be able to use the skill despite not actually having enough resources for both characters. This seems like the opposite of your problem. however.

If this isn't enough information for your problem, I'll have to look at it later. There could be an actual incompatibility between my plugin and the ammunition plugin; I don't know, but I can't look at it right now.
 
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Radis3D

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You must place my plugin after all plugins that modify cost for skills. That is, the Ammunition Plugin must go first on the plugin list. I know the Ammunition Plugin's page says "This plug-in should normally be placed under all plug-ins that you are using if possible". Ignore that; mine must go below it.

Also, any global costs (like items in your global inventory) that are used by both members of the dualtech currently risk a scenario where you'll be able to use the skill despite not actually having enough resources for both characters. This seems like the opposite of your problem. however.

If this isn't enough information for your problem, I'll have to look at it later. There could be an actual incompatibility between my plugin and the ammunition plugin; I don't know, but I can't look at it right now.
Thank you for answering...

I have try put your script before or after ammunition plugin..

But the ammo plugin still doesn't work well :/
 

HeroicJay

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Okay, I'll look into it this evening. If you could be a little more specific about what isn't working and how, it would help a lot.
 

Radis3D

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I will sent the Screenshot later when i got online on my Notebook :)

Thank you... :)
 

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