jobs vs class's what do you think

[PrideOfTheForbidion]

while this dose sort of contain to my own game, im not really locking it onto it as the fluff in my game calls for job development, though i am looking for thoughts on the matter as I may down play the jobs a little more

So right now I'm working on a multi character game with a good few different jobs all the common one's like novice, thief, mage, swordsman, Hunter, less common one's like dancer, jester, sage, sage knight, samurai and allot more...
Given i am making all my character sprites from scratch including clothing, and changeable fashion sprites, I have alot of work ahead lol, not to mention 176 different races...

Not 100% sure right now if I should lock job change or have it that you can freely change outside of battle, ie jobs most games you can't change, class you can sometimes, for example random online you had the 1 job, but ff10.2 you could change class, with some limits,
I have the concept and story line for my game in a card game format but pc is different, in the card game you reset to level 1 every new game given you keep your gold and items, your job resets also, so you could change it, pc version you don't reset to level 1, but I'm making it that you have to do quests to collect different jobs,

This is were I'm getting confused, the hero, + 2 party members chosen from a max reserve of 9 drafted from gameplay during quests, most of these characters start at level 1 novice also, some may have a job already, so maybe a locked job system would be better given you still have flexibility with character choice,

If I lock the job system, there will be a job tree, were you can progress from say a mage to a wizard then to a grand wizard, or swordsman, shield bearer or knight,

anyway I'm tired going to bed, what do you all think, locked or semi locked jobs or open class change?

 

[Milennin]

I never liked open classes, I much prefer class trees over it, where characters start out in a set class but can branch out to more advanced versions of their base class.

 

[ShadowDragon]

some can hahve job/class change which can be nice, but locking it gives the possibility to let the player "replay" the game with a different job/class like most online games. there is always a class that have advantage to some bosses, other has some weakness and so on. but the player have the option to play their favorite class in the end

 

[AmazingKazuki]

My friend said something that makes so much sense to me.

Class is something that is locked and jobs are something you can change. That is what I like, too. Jobs you can change even in the real world, so if you become an Alchemist to Guardsmen to Hunter versus locking in as a Warrior class (even if you have advancements).

 

[Chocopyro]

Well let me just say, you have one hell of an ambitious project there, regardless of which one you choose. As for me, it really depends on what kinda project I'm working on. For characters who are pre-made and strongly entangled in narrative driven stories, I prefer fixed. But for open world games where I'm free to make my own character, I prefer having some options. A single class could suit me just fine though, so long as it has some custom choices I could make to make my rogue different from the other rogue I find my character teaming up with temporarily. Think like Pathfinder RPG or D&D where you can choose specific abilities, archetypes, and stuff like that at incremental levels. I love the options they give you, where you could basically play a cleric of Desna who functions like the makeshift party rogue. (Needless to say, going that far for an RPGM project would be entirely unnecessary.)

Classes just give characters the templates they need to become specialized in certain roles. The amount of flexibility needed in that department really is different for each project, and what that project wants to achieve. Whether they focus on narrative, or mechanics, or strive to marry the two, sometimes a superfluous amount of classes does enrich the game, while in others, it can get redundant having more than three.

 

[PrideOfTheForbidion]

Spoiler: Chocopyro

Well let me just say, you have one hell of an ambitious project there, regardless of which one you choose. As for me, it really depends on what kinda project I'm working on. For characters who are pre-made and strongly entangled in narrative driven stories, I prefer fixed. But for open world games where I'm free to make my own character, I prefer having some options. A single class could suit me just fine though, so long as it has some custom choices I could make to make my rogue different from the other rogue I find my character teaming up with temporarily. Think like Pathfinder RPG or D&D where you can choose specific abilities, archetypes, and stuff like that at incremental levels. I love the options they give you, where you could basically play a cleric of Desna who functions like the makeshift party rogue. (Needless to say, going that far for an RPGM project would be entirely unnecessary.)

Classes just give characters the templates they need to become specialized in certain roles. The amount of flexibility needed in that department really is different for each project, and what that project wants to achieve. Whether they focus on narrative, or mechanics, or strive to marry the two, sometimes a superfluous amount of classes does enrich the game, while in others, it can get redundant having more than three.

yes, im setting out on a mission though i have never done anything by half's, and adding detail, is specialty of mine as i cant forget, i tend to just keep adding things on lol, though over all, im a artist, so making something fit my view is on a OCD level of perfectionism with me lol

~,~ a few of my friends say that im a real life Sheldon (big bang theory,) though, thinking of my 3 ex's i would say im more like Lenard FYI lol

I get what you mean by some times greater amounts of class's can be redundant, though what I'm trying for is to enrich by making class's that while they have some class's that are not great in battle would help outside as a support roll is merchant or blacksmith, even a cook, loved playing d&d

Spoiler: Milennin

I never liked open classes, I much prefer class trees over it, where characters start out in a set class but can branch out to more advanced versions of their base class.

depending on the game i like both, though i love character development, being able to take a character that was nothing and make it something, unique, lol given that though allot of people get it totally wrong, thats why i like class trees, though i much rather the customizable class or job trees, that allow you to make your own character the way you want it,

Spoiler: ShadowDragon

some can hahve job/class change which can be nice, but locking it gives the possibility to let the player "replay" the game with a different job/class like most online games. there is always a class that have advantage to some bosses, other has some weakness and so on. but the player have the option to play their favorite class in the end

replay value is a good point, the game that im designing has in a way, limitless replay value, playing a good role, or a bad role, and only being able to change your job early in game, makes the replay value greater then ever,

 

[BK-tdm]

If "open world" freedom is what you seek then making now jobs or classes but "skills" a player can learn and synergize is the way to go, as this approach makes the placer decide on the way which "class" they want to be (put points in dual wield, alchemy, shadow magic, bam, ninja) add a skill reset option and thats it, make players experiment, mix and match and make their own classes.

If the story is actually not open world but railroaded and every character has its set "role" then locking jobs makes more sense, with your traditional warrior hero, archer guy, mage smart guy and healer girl or any other rpg stock character archetypes.

Also 176 races? you'll need at least 40x Silmarillions to cover that much lore... A little bit "too much" in my book, just my two cents.

 

[PrideOfTheForbidion]

If "open world" freedom is what you seek then making now jobs or classes but "skills" a player can learn and synergize is the way to go, as this approach makes the placer decide on the way which "class" they want to be (put points in dual wield, alchemy, shadow magic, bam, ninja) add a skill reset option and thats it, make players experiment, mix and match and make their own classes.

If the story is actually not open world but railroaded and every character has its set "role" then locking jobs makes more sense, with your traditional warrior hero, archer guy, mage smart guy and healer girl or any other rpg stock character archetypes.

Also 176 races? you'll need at least 40x Silmarillions to cover that much lore... A little bit "too much" in my book, just my two cents.

176 race's including monsters, and transcended race's (vampire,zombie,werewolf,) i have the lore hand written for each race i did all this for the card version of the game, given though, the digital is based on it, and has the same characters and story quests, there are going to be allot of difference's, putting that all into digital format will take awhile though lol,
the story line, is basically a choose your own adventure, though getting this right is going to be pretty hard, thats why i feel its more correct to call it a open world,
given with the party base while the main party has the hero locked there are 2 party members, that can be switched out for 7 other alternative characters,
more detail here, if you want to have a read,

given that the player has a large alternative party to choose from, i have been thinking that locking each character onto a job path is the best idea, though the player chooses that job path all permanent party characters start off as a novice, but at the same time i dont like the idea of limiting the player, though replay solves that issue i think, more so if the player goes with a new game + option im thinking about adding in, that will directly connect with the main characters party, though as its a new game, you would start with the next gen, without the starting points limits,

im getting pretty tired now ~,~ so im going to leave this post here, if i missed anything ill add to it tomorrow,

 

[Kes]

@PrideOfTheForbidion Please remember that Games Mechanic Design is for looking at aspects of gameplay at a more conceptual level. It is not for discussing the particulars of a specific project.

 

[kairi_key]

I'm not sure I understand what you said, but for me, I think fixed job or having job tree suits me better.

Though, recently, I started to have a liking toward a fixed job that can have multiple function/play style. For example, you can choose whether your healer will be good at healing or buffing, or you can make your healer buff him/herself so well that you can make that healer a second tank. Or, a monk who you can either choose to play more aggressive or defensive, but you can't do both.

 

[PrideOfTheForbidion]

I'm not sure I understand what you said, but for me, I think fixed job or having job tree suits me better.

Though, recently, I started to have a liking toward a fixed job that can have multiple function/play style. For example, you can choose whether your healer will be good at healing or buffing, or you can make your healer buff him/herself so well that you can make that healer a second tank. Or, a monk who you can either choose to play more aggressive or defensive, but you can't do both.

that's a interesting idea, makes me think back to Ragnarok online, limitations to a characters skill base would do the same thing though,

@PrideOfTheForbidion Please remember that Games Mechanic Design is for looking at aspects of gameplay at a more conceptual level. It is not for discussing the particulars of a specific project.

sorry if i got a bit off topic, ^^:
i should note though im still working on the idea for the RMMV version of my game, i tend to talk in past tense about it as i have already made a table top card game, that im using the same lore and story from, given there will be differences,

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

My opinion is that if the game has limited characters, but many job/class options, then the player should be allowed to change their mind. It's not fun to get 5-10 hours in and decide you don't like your party composition, but then the only thing to do is start over.

However, if there are enough characters with unique jobs/classes (something like Suikoden), and I can change them out throughout the game, then I'm okay with their class/job being locked.

I prefer things to be simple, but if you're going to give me a plethora of options then allow me to change my mind as much as I want.

 

[atoms]

I like either a lot depending on how's it done.

Numbers on Classes
What you have to think about is, the numbers. Let's say you have 25 different class changes between a few characters, that can get complex.

Then, if it's locked classes between a large last let's say even 13-17 party members, that actually still feels simple to me if I can get time between who joins the party to see each character.


For fixed/locked Classes
I prefer multiple characters with single classes that can still vary enough to be used differently, so there is some choice and customisation for the player.

As an example, let's say you can power up a character in healing or magic or a little of both.

If the main character is locked in the party, then I also like the idea of that main character having the most customizable options.

I don't mind how it's done
I.e
1. Skill Trees where l choose which skills to power up carefully.
2. Limit skills are taken into battle with many to choose from.
3. Gain skills easily and then choose upgrades from the skills you gain.
4. The most simple form. Just simple level up, have simple skills but you can still choose what order you use the skills in battle and there is an advantage from using #1 or #2 first if that makes sense. This is actually different but I'm happy enough with that.


For Job Classes
I like the Job Points being limited to something like rewards with Level Up or Boss fights or both, or some crystal event thing gives them, something like this so it's more limited on what skills you can gain.

I don't mind switching between different jobs IF either you can still master certain classes and have enough Job Points for others, OR if you can take back your Job Points and then use them in a different class, or the same class with different skills.

I think I like those setups, I'm not saying something else can't work but this is what I know that for me works well.

 

[ave36]

My game, Legend of Terra Firma, has fixed classes. Oscar Gerrard is a Black Knight, Krible Mutz is a Battle Mage, Melle von Ruritania is a White Mage, and there's nothing you can do about it. However, the game also has Avatars, junctionable summons that also impart secondary skillsets. For example, if you junction the avatar Ettin to Mira the Paladin, it will give her access to offensive spells Spike and Quake which she normally would never have. Junction Salamander to Oscar the Black Knight, and he'll cast Flagra, Reflagra and Mortflagra that are normally Krible's domain. So combining Classes with Avatars allows you to customize character skillsets.

 

[Wavelength]

I'm personally a "Classes" guy. I like when characters' roles in battle mesh well with their personality, and I like when each character can feel like they offer something truly unique. It really helps flesh them out as a character.

 

[Aesica]

Job systems certainly are fun for customization, but based on what I've seen, they're pretty hard to balance. (See FF5 and FFT, both of which have some horribly broken job combinations) Beyond that, I mostly just use classes as a way to label a particular character, and generally don't bother with class changes unless it's part of the story.

Overall, it really depends on the type of game you want to make and there isn't a right or wrong in terms of jobs vs classes, or even set classes vs upgrades and/or trees.

I will say this about trees, though: Make sure the player isn't stuck with their decision. Bob is ready to upgrade from mage to either wizard or sorcerer, but the change is permanent and the game isn't telling me anything beyond some general descriptions. But which is better? Help I need a guide because most devs can't balance this kind of thing properly!

 

[M.I.A.]

@Aesica Although I completely agree, I think the "broken" combo's were intentional to encourage creative exploration within all the options. I feel the same way about Bravely Default series. The jobs and skills system is simple in nature, but you can make some pretty unfathomable combos/party configs!! I'm for it. What I am not for, is if there is a CLEAR ultimate Job/Skill combo that outperforms all others to the point of making the game and/or mechanics not enjoyable to play.

Even if that were still the case, personally, I play the jobs and skills combos I like the most. Sometimes they're super powerful, sometimes they a team of "Mediator/Oracles" (FFT). Haha.

-MIA

 

[Eden019]

I don't like job/class systems For RPG Games with few playable characters. If you're plying MMORPG or Tactic games, it could be a good idea.

 

[ThreeSixNine]

I am using set classes with changeable subclasses. Characters will always have access to their main skill set but get to choose their subset with an equip.

 

[SolonWise]

I will try to make a different approach to your dilema. The crucial thing is to make useful classes and useful skills to use in battle, or even outside battle. If you can do, let's say, about 5 different skills to each job, so you don't have to worry if it's a locked or semi locked job system. Leave that choice for the player, especially if all the jobs are so balanced that anyone can finish your game using any job. What I really don't like in a game is when there is a lot of classes and a lot of skills, but we can simply ignore all that, since the normal attack is a more useful and quick way to finish the battles.