Junction System

[Cymaiden]

Hypothetically, how might one recreate Final Fantasy VIII's Junction System with it's equippable spells and drawable spell charges in RPG Maker?

 

[NamEtag]

Don't. There are not many ways to make raw stat equipment efficiently provide meaningful choice compared to the extra busywork, coding, and number bloat, and that doesn't even cover the problems of the draw and magic hoarding of FF8.

 

[RCXGaming]

Don't. There are not many ways to make raw stat equipment efficiently provide meaningful choice compared to the extra busywork, coding, and number bloat, and that doesn't even cover the problems of the draw and magic hoarding of FF8.

As someone who hasn't played FF8, can you outline the problems in more depth? You know, just in case.

 

[NamEtag]

As someone who hasn't played FF8, can you outline the problems in more depth? You know, just in case.

I assume you know that Final Fantasies have the basic colored damage juice spells: Fire, Fira, Blizzaga, etc.

The Spell Junction system lets you store and equip spells as consumables. There is no mp in the game. Instead, you can spend a (relatively slow) action to Draw 1-10 uses of a spell from a monster. There is no limit, aside from tedium and bad rng, and noncombat sources are either nonrenewable, just as tedious as they run on IRL timers, or rely on midgame abilities and lategame knowledge of what items convert to what. Only specific monsters and location hold specific spells.

Equipping a spell lets you use it in combat, but more importantly it becomes linked to one of your stats(HP, STR, LUK, status resistance, etc.) Different spells have their own compatibility with a stat, with only a few maxing out benefits even at the item cap of 99. There are niche benefits for elemental/status spells, but usually better spell = more raw stat.

So do the math. 2-4 average uses per Draw. Item cap of 99. Sometimes Draw fails. On a final fantasy ATB system. Sometimes against bosses since they have higher/rare spells earlier. Unless you want to play cards with everyone for 20 hours at the beginning of the game, then up and downconvert items until you've got literally maxed out stats before the tutorial is over.

That's what it IS. Maybe another day I'll go over how monumentally dumb it is that every time you cast magic, you lower your equipped number of spells and thus actively and semi-permanently lose stats.

 

[RCXGaming]

I'll reply to this piece by piece to show where my thoughts went as I was reading, since it... was quite interesting.

I assume you know that Final Fantasies have the basic colored damage juice spells: Fire, Fira, Blizzaga, etc.

The Spell Junction system lets you store and equip spells as consumables. There is no mp in the game.

Sounds interesting, if a bit odd and out of the way.

Instead, you can spend a (relatively slow) action to Draw 1-10 uses of a spell from a monster. There is no limit, aside from tedium and bad rng, and noncombat sources are either nonrenewable, just as tedious as they run on IRL timers, or rely on midgame abilities and lategame knowledge of what items convert to what. Only specific monsters and location hold specific spells.

Oh...

This already sounds like a lost cause if only because of the real time and haphazard pseudo-crafting elements. Oh, and the fact it sounds like you need a guide...?

Equipping a spell lets you use it in combat, but more importantly it becomes linked to one of your stats(HP, STR, LUK, status resistance, etc.) Different spells have their own compatibility with a stat, with only a few maxing out benefits even at the item cap of 99. There are niche benefits for elemental/status spells, but usually better spell = more raw stat.

So do the math. 2-4 average uses per Draw. Item cap of 99. Sometimes Draw fails. On a final fantasy ATB system. Sometimes against bosses since they have higher/rare spells earlier. Unless you want to play cards with everyone for 20 hours at the beginning of the game, then up and downconvert items until you've got literally maxed out stats before the tutorial is over.

I... I'm sorry???

Who in their right mind would tie stat gain to a consumable that effectively has no limit? Why does using your skills have a fail rate.

Imagine if other games allowed you to buy stat-boosting items at the start of the game like it's nothing. That's effectively the vibe I'm getting here. I enjoyed the version in my head a lot more where it's literally just "you can equip A Thing to use a Spell!"... A bit like how Materia is, now that I think about it.

The Junction concept doesn't sound like it was remotely properly playtested. It also kind of reminds me of how you can just spam 99+ potions in FF15 to infinitely evade death.

That's what it IS. Maybe another day I'll go over how monumentally dumb it is that every time you cast magic, you lower your equipped number of spells and thus actively and semi-permanently lose stats.

I think this is the cherry on top because you're being punished for using your skills to be effective in battle, which is a big no-no.

 

[Frostorm]

I found a video on YouTube that explains the Junction system, for those who haven't played FF8. It's definitely too overcomplicated for its own good, lol. I'm not a fan of this system, tbh.

 

[Willibab]

I like the idea behind it and its very unique. But in practice it just makes people not want to use magic.

But with a custom version you could try to fix some of the issues.

- Increase amount of magic drawn so its not so tedious.
- Increase limit to beyond 100, maybe 150. But stats bonuses only count for the first 100. That way you can spend up to 50 without it weakening you.
- Maybe even just keep the system but only the first 10 counts to your stats. So you will be able to use the majority of your magic without issue and you don't have to spam draw all day to get 100.

I like the part where you are able to equip commands tbh, been trying to figure out a way to do that myself.

 

[ATT_Turan]

...and that doesn't even cover the problems of the draw and magic hoarding of FF8.

And that, in turn, is only one of the poor decisions that was made in designing gameplay mechanics in FF8

How about having all monsters dynamically adjust to your level, so the most efficient way to play the game is to avoid/flee from all encounters and never actually use the battle or leveling system?

 

[Basileus]

Monsters scaling with the player's level was probably what broke the Junction System. A lot of the tedium could have been avoided if playing normally was still a good option. But monsters out-scaled the player because they were balanced on the assumption that the player would be using the Junction System to boost their stats. So you basically had to abuse the system to stay ahead.

That said, it's hard to recommend trying to emulate the Junction System since it failed on so many levels. Drawing magic was boring, but out-of-combat ways to get magic were too easily broken and exploitable. Using magic lowered your stats and was often not worth it, so many players just used the basic attack with massively pumped up stats. Magic stacks could have been a long term way to grow your characters, but many effects were bad at low stacks and only got good at 99 stacks (like linking Blind to your weapon, or an elemental spell to your armor).

Thinking about it, Final Fantasy 10 already made a more balanced system with the Steal -> Use commands that Riku had. Riku could steal items from an enemy, but only once so there was no reason to stall fights out. Each item acted like a consumable magic spell that could heal, buff, do damage, etc. and could be combined with Riku's Mix overdrive to produce more powerful effects. Some of the items she could steal were spheres used in the Sphere Grid, some of which could add stat boosts to the empty nodes. It was a good system and could probably be modified to be more like the Junction System if you really want to go in that direction.

 

[Cymaiden]

Thinking about it, Final Fantasy 10 already made a more balanced system with the Steal -> Use commands that Riku had. Riku could steal items from an enemy, but only once so there was no reason to stall fights out. Each item acted like a consumable magic spell that could heal, buff, do damage, etc. and could be combined with Riku's Mix overdrive to produce more powerful effects. Some of the items she could steal were spheres used in the Sphere Grid, some of which could add stat boosts to the empty nodes. It was a good system and could probably be modified to be more like the Junction System if you really want to go in that direction.

Is there a plug-in that allows for multiple inventories?

 

[Basileus]

Not sure, but I think there is a way to give each character their own inventory. Depends on the version of RPG Maker you are using too.

 

[M.I.A.]

I'm a HUGE Final Fantasy fan.. and I'll say this:...

- I never played FF8 other than the demo. I could see that with LVLScaling enemies, the draw system, and the junction system.. it would add up to a LOT of tedium with very little reward for the effort. What fun it is to remain in battle and constantly Draw just to have enough of X amount of Magic/Stats.. and why Lvl up at all? It stalemates the whole experience and takes away from the actual reason one plays an RPG; to submerge themselves in the story/fantasy and have FUN.

FF8 was not fun. It was work. For nothing. Lol.

-MIA